Advanced reloading techniques for straight wall cartridges...long post

[rimfire]

Guys and Gals,

I have played with a number of different guns and calibers, but I am settling in to shooting my 41 and 44 magnums more than any other guns and want to improve my loading technique for those two.  I can get obsessed with technique and results and want to see how much I can do to improve the consistency of my loads [I am a Mechanical Engineer with no life...apparently!].

First off, assuming I have no issue with getting new equipment or trying new things, here is where I am starting.

41 MAG [T/C Custom 11", S&W PC657, and Ruger Redhawk]

Have settled on a load of 21 grains of H110 behind a 210 grain XTP in front of a CCI350 primer.  I currently have a Lee Die set and a Lee Factory Crimp Die.  I have tried Federal and R-P brass.  I chronoed some loads the other day.  With Federal Brass the load goes around 1275 with vary little velocity variation.  With R-P I got 50 fps more velocity on average, but min to max variation was 65 fps...which seemed excessive.

44 Mag [FA 83]

No PET load at all yet, although 24 grains of H110, 240XTP, and CCI350 out any brass I have tried so far has given me 3" or less at 50 yards for 5 shots off of a makeshift rest with a 2x scope.  I want to make this my heavy bullet gun for bigger stuff and develop one go to cast load of 280-300 grain WFN profile loaded to 1300 fps plus for BIG STUFF.  I have a set of RCBS dies for this with a Lee Factory Crimp Die.  Note I did chrono some loads with this and saw a significant reduction in velocity variation with a 300 grain XTP load between crimping using the RCBS factory crimp and the LFCD.  That is why I bought the crimp die for my 41 honestly.  MAx deviation in velocity for 10 sheets went from 60 fps to 7 fps by changing to the LFCD.

Okay...enough about that.  I would like suggestions for straight wall cartridges in general that are down at the detail level.  I have been surfing for info.  I read Mike Dio's article on Getting the Most from your 44 Magnum on the Beartooth website and it got my gears turning...smell the smoke?  I figure I have all summer to experiment so anything is fair game. 

Suggestions on:

1. Brass choice and prep
2. Die choice and modifications [Mike suggests modifying your expander plug to increase bullet pull and that sounded like a good thing to try]
3. Crimp choices...what about the Redding Profile Crimp?...extent of crimp with that or the LFCD?
4. How many times should I reload a case for max consistency?  Most recommendations I hear are for case life, not maximum performance.

I am guessing that handgun silo shooters have played with all of this and am getting to look around for their comments also.
 
Oh...and let me be clear.  Although I want to maximize accuracy I can get out to 125 yards, I have no illusions that I will find a real good rest to do much shooting at that distance in the field.  I have only taken one game animal at more than 100 yards in my life [Eastern Whitetail hunter mostly] and I hunt with a handgun because I don't need to shoot that far.  Last 4 deer I have taken with a firearms don't add up in distance of shot 100 yards combined, so do not be concerned with my slinging lead at far off creatures and looking for an excuse to do so.  This effort is for my own satisfaction and confidence in my firearms.  If I expect a shot over 75-80- yards, and I really want the venison...I will go pull my one rifle out of the safe.

Sorry for the long post.

Rimfire

[Lone Star]

1. Brass choice and prep
2. Die choice and modifications [Mike suggests modifying your expander plug to increase bullet pull and that sounded like a good thing to try]
3. Crimp choices...what about the Redding Profile Crimp?...extent of crimp with that or the LFCD?
4. How many times should I reload a case for max consistency?  Most recommendations I hear are for case life, not maximum performance.

I am guessing that handgun silo shooters have played with all of this and am getting to look around for their comments also.

Lots of silhouette experience here, revolvers and Contenders chambered in straight walled cases.

1 - We generally prefrerred Federal cases, although some liked WW.  Trim carefully the first time, and keep trimmed regularly - note case length growth and uneven mouths.
2 - Quality dies - carbide speeds the work but some dies will over-size the case.  Redding used to be a top brand.
3 - Roll or profile, can depend on the crimp groove in your bullets.  Some liked the Lee crimp die.
4 - The most important thing here is to keep your cases sorted by the number of times they have been reloaded.  I used to get over 20 reloads before I retired a case, but I had to trim them regularly.  Case hardness and length were the two most important factors in keeping consistent crimp strength - inconsistant crimp strength/bullet pull means high velocity variation and poor accuracy.

If you can get by without crimping you can eliminate that variable.  You will have to crimp in the revolvers, but the SS can be loaded without a crimp depending on the powder.  H110 and W296 need a good crimp, but BlueDot does not.  I have received my best accuracy in straight walled cases in single shots using BlueDot.  You usually give up a little velocity over H110, but really not that much.  Recoil is less and accuracy often better.  In silhouette shooting reducing recoil was important, and of course accuracy was paramount.  An extra 100 fps was meaningless as the .41 and .44 Mags have more than enough power with the right bullets.


.

[crabo]

"I read Mike Dio's article on Getting the Most from your 44 Magnum on the Beartooth website and it got my gears turning...smell the smoke?"

Can you give me a link to this article?  I could not find it.

Thanks

[mrussel]

"I read Mike Dio's article on Getting the Most from your 44 Magnum on the Beartooth website and it got my gears turning...smell the smoke?"

Can you give me a link to this article?  I could not find it.

Thanks

 I think this is what he was talking about http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/45

[mdi]

My only imput here would be my opinion on Lee Factory Crimp Dies. I have 5 .44 Magnums and the bore size and throat sizes vary. The Lee FC swages my cast bullets down as it crimps, leaving me with undersize bullets and resulting leading in two of the 4 guns, and one other is marginal. My Puma (.432" bore) definately needs "unswaged" bullets and my Dan Wesson (.430" -.4305") likes fatter bullets too.

Haven't tried the LFCD for my Contender as WC820 and a good roll crimp are working fine (besider, I don't know where the die is!)

[buck460XVR]

Lone Star gave you some good advice. Altho many will claim they NEVER trim pistol brass, I too have found, especially with heavy crimps and hunting velocities, that keeping your brass all trimmed to the same length keeps SDs down and accuracy up. I also have found that top velocity and top accuracy generally are not obtainable with the same load. Most of my magnum handguns shoot the most accurate with loads that are less than maximum velocity. I suggest you lighten your .44 mag  H110/240 XTP load  a half a grain and see if your groups tighten up. I tend to load for accuracy first, and it seems I'm usually within 150fps of max. I gladly give up  a tad of speed for a tad tighter group. If all your shots are as you say, within 80 yards, the little bit of velocity lost will be insignificant.

I read Mike Dio's article on Getting the Most from your 44 Magnum on the Beartooth website and it got my gears turning...smell the smoke?

I smelled a sales pitch for Beartooth bullets.

[stimpylu32]

Hate to be a stick in the mud here - BUT with most handguns , brass prep is the least of your worries , to get the most from any short gun ( be it handgun or short barreled rifle ) your biggest problem is consistent sight alignment and sight picture .

You can only get so true with a sight radius of 6" to 10" , wheel guns also have another drawback , unless your going to spend BIG BUCKS to have a Custom cylinder with Match chambers cut your looking at up to 6 different chamber / barrel combo's all in one handle .

Don't get me wrong , I love to get every last drop of accuraticy ( spelling  ) from my handguns , yet too many people spend way too much time trying to get them to do things that they were NEVER designed to do .

Just my .02 on this , I've been wrong before and WILL be wrong again . 

stimpy 

[tacklebury]

+1 Stimpy.  There are many who shoot pistol better than I, I'm sure, but out to 100 yards, you don't want to stand where I'm aiming I promise.  I simply feel, that other than from bench for silhouette and very long barreled guns, it's best to know your limitations.  I'm comfortable on deer sized game to 75 yards with a few of my loads, but typically, I don't even draw until 25-30 yards.  With adrenaline in a hunting situation, it's easy to wound game.  Plinking I go to 100, but it's not mission critical.  I like having my .45 Colt BC on my shoulder, so when that buck sticks his head out of the woods at 150, I don't miss the opportunity.

[mrussel]

+1 Stimpy.  There are many who shoot pistol better than I, I'm sure, but out to 100 yards, you don't want to stand where I'm aiming I promise.

 (Or anywhere within 30 degrees or so I'm told  )

Seriosuly though,the way I look at it is,there is a cone extending from the end of the gun to my target that the bullets will fall in. If its small enough at the distance my target is,that I can put that cone completely inside of the area I need the bullets,I dont care how much more accurate it is.

[tacklebury]

Agreed, I'm saying for ME, my max with my NMB at 5.5" is 100 yards.  Sorry if it came off differently.  If I am shooting the 4" 357, it's closer to 50 yards for me max.  Just saying though, I choose not to hunt even at my max capability, because there is MUCH room for error, especially when the adrenaline is pumping.  If you can shoot your pistol at 200 yards, feel free to do so.  I don't like to wound game though, but as I said, plinking is fun to test your limits on targets be they paper or objects.    Perhaps with a lot of practice and continued load development, that will change.  Or as my eyesight continues to decline, it might decrease.  Only time will tell, hehe.

[mrussel]

Agreed, I'm saying for ME, my max with my NMB at 5.5" is 100 yards.  Sorry if it came off differently.

 You were clear,thats just my sarcastic humor at work.

[tacklebury]

ok, just making sure. 

[Sweetwater]

easy to agree and disagree when typing -  can't see the smirks and twinkle in the eye -

+1 Stimpy. Time spent overdoing revolver brass prep can be spent in practice, practice, practice. I've shot antelope with open sighted handguns at 300 yards back when I could really see, and the single most necessary part of the equation was practice at those distances and lots of different distances, so you learn your gun and it all becomes automatic. IF you shoot cast, do not use the LFCD as outlined above. It will destroy the benefit obtained by fat bullets. IF you shoot jacketed, WHY? cast bullets are more than up to what you are planning, and a lot more fun, not to mention economical. Crimp is about a personal issue and make a choice.  You may just have to experiment. Pick one type of brass and it will be consistent, keep it all trimmed the same - I've got 41mag brass over 30 years old, and I'd hate to try to figure out how many times it's been loaded. Brass life hasn't been an issue with my 41mag.

Happy shooting!

[stimpylu32]

Don't get me wrong guys , brass prep is important with any round , be it pistol or rifle , some just need less than others . For me the limits of my handguns are MY eyes not the gun itself so I stick to the lower limits of what it is capable of and don't worry about taking it to extreams .

The case O.L. is one thing that I do tend to keep in check , the reason is that to get a consinsent crimp the case's need to be the same leingth as I do shoot a lot of H110 / Win 296 as well as other Mag type powders were crimp does play an inportant part in how well the round groups .

Myself , handguns have always been a close ( or closer ) range option so I use them for that chore and leave the rifles or slug shooting shotguns for the longer stuff .

stimpy