Accuracy problem X2

[AtlLaw]

I am working with a friend's .308 H&R Ultra.  A few years ago I worked up some handloads for that rifle and noticed a problem he had told me about.  One round, normally the second, sometimes the third, out of each 3 shot group would drop a couple of inches out.  I brought his rifle home with me again this year and mounted one of my Leupolds, a 4x12 AO I use for load development; a proven scope, on it to eliminate the bad scope factor.  Loaded up around 50 rounds of the load the rifle seemed to like best and went to the range.  After sighting it in I started shooting groups at 100 yds.  I encountered the same problem on virtually every group.  One round lands 2 or 3 inches lower then the other 2.  The most common sequence is: first round hits POA, the second goes low and the third round is right there next to the first.  For the last group I fired a forth round and it landed with the first and third making a nice 3 shot group of 1 inch (+/-).  The odd round was, of course, about 2.5 inches low.  I normally blame my shooting for the odd flier I encounter, but this is TO consistant and I was shooting nice sub MOA groups that day with a new (to me) Rem. 700 30/06 I had just bedded and was working up a load for.  (125 gr @3050 fps BTW)  On the Ultra I had previously relieved the barrel channel to eliminate any barrel/forearm contact and  put in a rubber washer between forearm screw and barrel.

I also just purchased a NEF Ultra in 7x57 Mauser and finally got to take it to the range.  First thing I noticed was that the ejector seems to be bent down or at least hanging a little low.  When you open the breach and insert a round, the cartridge slides right past the ejector into the chamber.  It ejects fine though.  May be I'll send it back to H&R if it bothers me to much.

The real problem was with accuracy.  It was pretty poor with factory ammo and the first batch of handloads I tried.  But most annoying was it's tendancy to drop one round apart from the other 2 in each 3 shot group.  It may be a little to early to tell right now but it seems to suffer from the same malady as my friend's Ultra.

I am at a loss to explain this.  The only other reason I can think of, on my friend's rifle anyway, is a bad barrel.  Does anyone have any ideas?  Somebody has HAD to have run into this problem before.

Richard

[poncaguy]

My Handi's shoot great 2 shot groups, but 3 shots usually opens the group up to 1 1/2 to 3" ........

[AtlLaw]

But... why?

I hate rifles when they do that!   
Richard

[poncaguy]

Well, usually when hunting, I only need one shot anyway...................

[LaOtto222]

I would not think it the result of a bad barrel. If it was a bad barrel the fliers would be random. Some times the first shot, some times the second. Bad barrels usually result in no grouping at all, more of a shot gun type pattern 5" or bigger. Is there any cleaning going on between shots or between groups? Does it shoot POI through a clean barrel? How long do you rest (cool) the barrel between groups? How is the lock up? This must be the same every time. Trigger pull consistency is important. Are the bullets centered in the throat for each shot? Just trying to understand what is going on here and give you something to check. Working out bugs can be frustrating.

[quickdtoo]

Welcome to GBO! Please read the accurizing links in the FAQs, you'll find what you need to do fix the issue. Usually it has to do with forend pressure and or improper latch engagement, oil on the latch, ect, the Handi Basics 101 sticky above will get you started. Make one change at a time until you find the culprit. It could also be not sizing the brass properly to the chamber, the brass must be flush to the chamber face or recessed ~.001", if it's protruding from the chamber, it won't lock up well, and good, consistent lock up = accuracy.

Tim

[coldmold]

I waqs not aware that you could get a handi chambered in 7 /57 mauser. Was this a special build or what. I would love to get my hands on one.

[quickdtoo]

The 7x57 was available in the past, there are other rounds that are no longer available, 7x64 Brenneke is another.

Tim

[AtlLaw]

I would not think it the result of a bad barrel. If it was a bad barrel the fliers would be random. Some times the first shot, some times the second. Bad barrels usually result in no grouping at all, more of a shot gun type pattern 5" or bigger.

I agree with you.  I just can't make myself believe it's a bad barrel, but I'm at a loss to explain the fliers!

Is there any cleaning going on between shots or between groups? Does it shoot POI through a clean barrel? How long do you rest (cool) the barrel between groups? How is the lock up? This must be the same every time. Trigger pull consistency is important. Are the bullets centered in the throat for each shot? Just trying to understand what is going on here and give you something to check. Working out bugs can be frustrating.

I appreciate your efforts.  I'll try to explain my procedures.  I've never been a big believer in barrel break in.  I'm anal about a lot of things, but that ain't one of them!     Therefore, I start with a clean barrel, fire a couple of fouling shots, then start shooting groups.  Normally I'll fire around 20-25 rounds between cleanings; including copper fouling removal.  I'm so used to the first round or 2 not hitting real close to POA that I don't usually record them but if that's an issue I'll check the next time at the range.  I fire 3 shot groups and let the barrel cool completely between groups.  By "lock up" if you mean the fit of the barrel assy. to the receiver, it seems solid enough.  I think my shooting technique, while not exactly bench rest match quality, is pretty good.  With Handi's the front sandbags go under the receiver rather then the forearm, and I insure the cross hairs are on target with the rifle sitting on the rest and without input from me.  I'm using LC brass weighed to w/in +/- 1 gr.  This go-around they were full length resized which puts the shoulders about .004 under chamber length, but I will bring them down only .002 under in subsequent resizings.  Brass and bullet runout appears minimal but I haven't done a chamber cast, and won't, to check chamber/throat alighnment.  ANY thoughts you might have will be appreciated.
Richard

[AtlLaw]

Welcome to GBO! Please read the accurizing links in the FAQs, ... and good, consistent lock up = accuracy.
Tim

Thanks for the welcome!  An internet friend named Andy turned me on to this forum last week.  He also suggested reading your FAQ's, which I have done and will do again.  Good stuff there.  I have been a subscriber to the NEF Handi Rifle newsgroup for a number of years, good ol' Perko!, so I'm not a real newbe to Handi's but am always looking to learn.  Like "consistant lock up = accuracy."  I'll have to pay more attention to that area!
Richard

[AtlLaw]

  I would love to get my hands on one.

Apparently you're not alone!  Andy, who I mentioned in another post, wants it as does Fat Bird over in the NEF Handi Rifle list.  He offered to buy me any NEF/H&R I wanted and kick in some $ to boot for it.  Never could understand why H&R would make a chambering for a few years and then stop.  How about a 9.3x62? 

[darat100]

Atlaw

Pardon me for not knowing, what sight are you refering to when you say the NEF Handi rifle list?

Thanks for the help.

[eskimo36]

josh,
probably meant the yahoo group for nef's
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/nef-singleshot/

[AtlLaw]

josh, probably meant the yahoo group for nef's  http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/nef-singleshot/

Yessir, that's it.  Great group of people.
Richard

[LaOtto222]

Every Gun is a thing onto itself. What works for one will not work for another. I feels like the problem in in the gun, not the ammo, but who knows. Floating the fore end with a rubber o-ring works for a lot of folks. Some times they shoot better with out the o-ring. A few have gotten good results from shooting off of a bi-pod, many have not. By lock-up. I meant that it must not only be tight, but consistent too. When you shut the action, do so firmly each time (this goes against my grain, I like to to close it gingerly, but firm is the way to go). Quick (Tim) mentioned about the latch being dry. There has been a lot of talk about whether the latch should be dry or oiled. Again some find that a dry latch is good for them and some say an oiled latch works. I think it has to do with engagement. This is critical too to have consistent lock up I have seen talk of pillar bedding the fore-end. This involves making a pillar and the glassing/epoxy it in. It also involves full length bedding the fore arm. Some have used RTV for bedding compound. Some have used regular bedding compound. Some have bedded without pillar bedding. In the posts it has been mentioned many times about follow through on the trigger pull. The theory is that if you do not do that, the transfer bar will start dropping and give inconstant primer ignition. I think it is a matter of pulling the trigger the same way each time so the gun does not move. Some free recoil shoot for groups some shoot with a firm grip. I think this  is being consistent, what ever works for you. The FAQ are a good place to start, as has been mentioned by Quicktdoo (Tim). It looks like you have done that already so I am giving you other things to try. Some people work hard at finding problems and some give up. Some have found their gun shoots good right of the box, but I think that that is a minority. When working with Handy's, conventional wisdom (what works for bolt guns) is not always what works for these. Some say their gun does not shoot well until it have several hundred rounds through it. This is my 2 cents. Be creative and good luck, let us know if you find the right combination

[DanielWGriggs]

At Law,

Has anyone fired moly coated rounds in this barrel? I was having an oddly similar 2nd shot to the southeast kinda thing happening. I thought I had a bad scope but it holds its zero an another rifle. I am continuing with a major cleaning till the patches come out clean to see if it is a lack of cleaning problem. Tomorrow I get the flitz and will polish the bore and chamber. I have also had a few stuck cases (lube) and am checking the lockup. I am opening and closing the rifle to wear in the mating surfaces of the barrel and barrel latch.

Any mor luck with your rifle? I am only guessing the moly thing as I think it would effect all shots not only the second in a string. With 3 shot groups are you firing as fast as is possible or is there some time between shots (5 minutes). I should get more range time on wed or thur. Will post to see if the changes help my situation.

[Mac11700]

the brass must be flush to the chamber face or recessed ~.001", if it's protruding from the chamber, it won't lock up well, and good, consistent lock up = accuracy. Wink

There are times...this isn't the best way to do it...

338-06 A-Squre 180 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip at 3050 fps



The above group was shot with cases pre-stressed to fill the barrel frame gap on my 338-06A-Square...Meaning that since I have a .0015" frame gap..the cases protrude from the breech face .0015"..This is how Bob Merkur of Redding suggested it be done..and how I have done all of my Handi Rifles...Since these rifles are being closed hard...and the rim is exactly what the frame barrel gap is..they will close...only when you are using sized cartridges over the frame barrel gap will it be difficult to..or refuse to close..I get 3-5 firings before mine won't close properly....and the shoulders will need to be bumped back...depending on how hard I drive it...At most I will size the cases to be flush with the breech face...but never below...Others might..but..I never have nor will...Most handi's have very generous chamber dimensions...and I won't induce any additional head space to them...I treat all my ammunition separate for each rifle...and don't mix them..

I also check factory loaded ammunition..and separate any ammo that fall below the breech face or sit above it more than the F.B.G....I never use this ammo for shooting groups or sighting in...even with the extractor barrels...These rounds that fall below the breech face have caused more unexpected results in every Handi I have ever owned...and I won't shoot them when hunting or for any serious bench work..I usually use these factory loads for checking velocities across the chronograph.

This is something that is very easy to check before heading to the range...Try it for yourself...and you'll see...

BTW...My rifle locks up tight...and I have even wear on the latch shelf..and it is very consistent...provided that my reloading technique is too...and loading it this way...you have to be very precise...To me...the dividends are worth the extra effort to try different techniques...

As LaOtto222 said...Every rifle is one unto itself...

So...since this is a older 7x57 Mauser ejector barrel..and you are using reloads...and you don't want to send it in to be repaired,,,Check the frame barrel gap..and try setting the head space to be exactly what the F.B.G is...provided it is under .006"..if it is at this or above...Shim the barrel to correct as described in the FAQ's...Also...index your brass so you load it exactly the same each time..and start with all of the brass to the proper trim length..then shoot the same load...I make a small scribe and load it to T.D.C. every time...If you can't re-chamber the just fired round in the exact position and close it as you normally do..you frame is flexing too much for that load..or your lock up isn't as good as you thought..and allowing it to flex..So you can check the latch and stone it if needed...Or the latch engagement is good..and it still won't chamber..back off 2 grains of powder and check it again as above...Just because your not seeing any pressure indicators doesn't mean your not getting them...and no 2 rifles will react exactly the same with the exact same loading...

If your still having fliers that are consistent...try removing the fore-arm and shooting with out it..This will let you know if the fore-arm is effecting anything..If it shoots no different...try making a pressure point in the fore-arm with something...a couple business cards or even aluminum foil will work well enough temporarily just to see how it will react...If this helps..then a permanent solution can be made..

Good Luck

Mac

[DanielWGriggs]

Currently am working on too many changes at one time.  To the range first to see if I can correct the problems with what I have done. with the Flitz/latch lockup/chamber polish. Then I  will take the forearm off and see if barrel heating/pressure is an issue. Not giving up yet/ever.

[AtlLaw]

Every Gun is a thing onto itself. ... Be creative and good luck, let us know if you find the right combination

I think you're right.  So, I think I'll take it back to square one and start anew.  It just shoots 2 out of 3, or 3 out of 4 to well to give up on!
Richard

[AtlLaw]

338-06 A-Squre 180 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip at 3050 fps

WOW!  The 180 gr. NBT is my favorite deer bullet for the 338/06 but I never tried for that velocity!  When I found out Nosler had quit making the 180 gr. I bought enough (I thought) to last me the rest of my life.  But my hunting load only pokes along at 2750 out of my '03 Springfield actioned sporter!  I may need to undertake a little more load development... uh, what powder are you using?   

I treat all my ammunition separate for each rifle...and don't mix them..

As do I

So...since this is a older 7x57 Mauser ejector barrel..and you are using reloads...and you don't want to send it in to be repaired,,,Check the frame barrel gap..and try setting the head space to be exactly what the F.B.G is

Though it was made a few years ago the (7x57) rifle appears almost new.  The fellow I bought it from included a box of factory ammo with 6 fired rounds; said he used 4 to sight it in and 2 to kill 2 deer with.  From the looks of the rifle I might believe him!  I would say my friend's .308, the subject of my original query, has a round count of less then 200.  (His name is Mac BTW)
I check the case length for brass to be fired in a particular rifle after full length resizing and after being fired in that rifle.  The resized length is for refernce, but I use the fired length as a basis for future setting my sizing die.  Normally I size the brass 2 thousanths under the fired length.  I gather you say you neck size only until you're forced to bump the shoulder?

...provided it is under .006"..if it is at this or above...Shim the barrel to correct as described in the FAQ's...

Here's a question, how do I measure this FBG?  Try to close the barrel on a feeler gauge?

...index your brass so you load it exactly the same each time..and start with all of the brass to the proper trim length..then shoot the same load...I make a small scribe and load it to T.D.C. every time...If you can't re-chamber the just fired round in the exact position and close it as you normally do..you frame is flexing too much for that load..or your lock up isn't as good as you thought..and allowing it to flex..So you can check the latch and stone it if needed...Or the latch engagement is good..and it still won't chamber..back off 2 grains of powder and check it again as above...Just because your not seeing any pressure indicators doesn't mean your not getting them...and no 2 rifles will react exactly the same with the exact same loading...

Ah!  Good stuff there!  At first I thought you were going to say to index rounds every time you shoot!

If your still having fliers that are consistent...try removing the fore-arm and shooting with out it..This will let you know if the fore-arm is effecting anything..If it shoots no different...try making a pressure point in the fore-arm with something...a couple business cards or even aluminum foil will work well enough temporarily just to see how it will react...If this helps..then a permanent solution can be made..

This is scheduled to be my next thing to check.  Why?  Because it's the easiest!

Now, about that 338/06 load....

Richard

[Mac11700]

I may need to undertake a little more load development... uh, what powder are you using?

I use BL-C2 powder..Weatherby (Norma) cases..and Remington 9-1/2 primers..Start at 58 grains...and work up...The Hodgdons Annual list the max at 62 grains...and I am 3 grains under that...using a re bored/ throated 25-06 Ultra barrel barrel that Wayne York did for me with his cut rifling...BTW..it is a 9-1/2 twist..

I gather you say you neck size only until you're forced to bump the shoulder?

That is correct.

Here's a question, how do I measure this FBG?  Try to close the barrel on a feeler gauge?

That is correct again..

At first I thought you were going to say to index rounds every time you shoot!

I do...I index each case to be Top Dead Center on my small mark on the case..to the T.D.C. of the chamber..I don't re-mark each case on each firing..

B.T.W.

The 180 Accubond does almost as well at the BT's for groups...with almost the same exact velocity



Mac

[mitchell]

But... why?

I hate rifles when they do that!   
Richard

a lot of times if your screwing up a group on a certain shot every group its not the gun , with me its always my 3rd 5th or 7th (the last shot of the group) but thats just me . if it where the rifle i don't think you would see and pattern like every 2nd shot in a group caz then what would happen if you shot a 3 then a 5 shot group would the pattern be broken or not?? you my just be trying too hard and be pulling down that last shot . i do it all the time just i always pull right about 1 minute

[AtlLaw]

Hey Mac,
I've never tried BL-C2.  Now I've got an excuse!  I figured Nosler just kept the 200 gr. BT and dropped the 180 in favor of the Accubond.  But I don't need a bonded bullet for our 100 lb. Jawja deer.  'course, there's some that would say I don't need a 338 for deer either...
Thanks for all your help!
Richard

[DanielWGriggs]

Well now, after a thourough cleaning, lubricating the lbarrell latch the rifle settled in and shot some of my 168 gr reloads into a nice two inch group at 100, This load has not been tweaked and shoots 1/2" below point of aim but I am happy since it was a 10 shot group. shooting slowly is the key, cold barrell will get me 2 shots together now the third one will string high about an inch if fired after the others.

[AtlLaw]

I tell ya, a 10 shot 2 inch group ain't bad!
Richard

[Mac11700]

I tell ya, a 10 shot 2 inch group ain't bad!
Richard

True enough......but...how about a sub-moa 10 shot group...



Remember...pay attention to those little details...like how that factory ammo is sitting in the chamber...

Mac

[DanielWGriggs]

I will. I flitzed the barrell last night after I got back from the range. The patch was so tight that giving her the hundred strokes full length took a lot of effort. I am happy to report no more bang doink another mark on the forhead from the lack of lock up. Opening and closing the barrel latch many times seem to have fixed that problem. I had several on lookers wondering what kinda rifle I was shooting and admiring the group giving advice and such. Strange How the handi's bring you a lot of attention specially in such a small package. This is a youth model "RMEF" ultra. short and sweet easy to carry and will make a dandy walk around rifle for the deer woods when I move to Misouri.

[AtlLaw]

True enough......but...how about a sub-moa 10 shot group...

Geeeeese!  The man calls a bullet that opens a group up .444 inch a "flyer!"  With factory ammo yet!  I'll bet you even shoot bench rest, use Lapua brass, remove copper fouling after every shot and buy your wife a present on mother's day!   

[Mac11700]

True enough......but...how about a sub-moa 10 shot group...

Geeeeese!  The man calls a bullet that opens a group up .444 inch a "flyer!"  With factory ammo yet!  I'll bet you even shoot bench rest, use Lapua brass, remove copper fouling after every shot and buy your wife a present on mother's day!   

Yes..Yes..No..and as a matter of fact Yes...and it was even a summer purse 

Mac

[DanielWGriggs]

At law anymore word on the strange 2nd shot pattern.