which big bore( last time, i promise)

[hillbilly jake]

a few months back i posted a question on which big bore to choose.  well i decided against buying one and bought an ar-15 instead for cyote hunting.  well the bug never went away.  gotta have a big bore.  which one?

savage 116fss .375

marlin 1895 45-70

ruger mk II .350 rem. mag.

i apologize for basically asking the same question again, and i promise this is the last time.  shots will be under 200 yards.  i know that these calibers pose a wide range of velocities and bullet weights so it may be comparing apples to oranges, but just tell me what you like and why.  thanks much.

[GEMSBUCK]

the 350 mag is a med. bore, the 45-70 is a big bore but marginal as so,and the Savage will kick like a mule (I had one and sold it)
 Big bores start at .458 diameter and go up with the exception of the 375RUM, H& H.IMHO the 375 H&H is the best all round bigger bore and the 458 WM is the true big bore without going to the Lott or the NE calibers.

[SHOOTALL]

What are you going to do with it ?
hunt ? open country ? timber or close up and personal ? quick shots in brush ? target ? what action type do ya like ? How much recoil can ya take ? ( BE HONEST ) ouch ! do ya reload ? It would be easier to pick a wife for ya !
If ya just want a big one for no particular reason a 45/70 marlin might be a nice choice ! It can be used for deer or bigger critters and the new ammo gives it more power and distance ! How about an encore , then you can have bbl's from .17 thru. 45 or larger ?

[hillbilly jake]

i will mainly be hunting deer under 200 yards for now with the hopes of elk/moose/bear in the near future.  i already have a 7 mag in a ruger 77.  i have also hunted with my dad's guide gun so i am very familiar with both lever and bolt guns.  after i installed a limbsaver recoil pad on my 7 mag i did not think it was that bad at all to shoot.  my dad has either a pachmeyer/limbsaver on his guide gun and the recoil out of this gun doesn't bother me either up t about 15 rounds on both.  i have always wanted a .375 but have never shot one.  i dont want to spend a bunch of money on something that will make me flinch every time i shoot.  i feel comfortable with the 45-70 but is this enough gun for moose/big bears?  i hope this helps and thanks for the advice

[WyoXJ]

In my opinion the 45-70 is enough gun within its range limits.  My hunting buddy and I have been using the 45-70 for elk, Deer, & Antelope.  And in all honesty I feel its worlds above my 7mm Rem for impact effect on Elk, and of course its just fine on Deer and Antelope. With loads loaded up the full potential of a marlin or Ruger #1 the recoil is getting noticeable my 45-70 kicks considerably harder than my 7mm Rem which is not saying much the 7mm is a pussycat. Just for comparison here are the recoil figures for my guns.  7mm Rem 160gr = 23ftlbs of recoil, a 45-70 with a 350gr @ 2050 is 42ftlbs of recoil.  Now the 375 H&H is just a great round but if your shots are likely to be under  200yd the 45-70 is fine but if you are going to shoot much past 200yd I would go with the .375.

[superdown]

  I say if you reload then get a 458 lott or any other big round because you can reduce your loads to what you shoot best and still have the fun of whatever rifle/cartridge you like best. good luck, superdown

[victorcharlie]

If I were hunting the hills of WV, I'd take the 45.70 in a Marlin lever action.

Works great in the east Tennessee hills, and the one I have shoots very well.......and is surprisingly more accurate than I imagined.

The hills around here are steep.......the lighter weight the rifle, the better.....

[Redhawk1]

hillbilly jake,the Marlin in 45-70 would work for you just fine. No need for the 375 H&H unless you just want one. When you mention big bears are you talking Grizzle or Brown? IF so, step up to the 375 H&H or a 416 Rigby. But either one of them is on the big side for deer.

GEMSBUCK, where did you get this, "Big bores start at .458 diameter and go up with the exception of the 375RUM, H& H.IMHO the 375 H&H is the best all round bigger bore and the 458 WM is the true big bore without going to the Lott or the NE calibers."

I guess my 416 Rigby is a medium bore.  Big bores start at .40. 

[Grumulkin]

You will get differing opinions as to what a "big bore" is.  In Africa, a 375 H&H Mag. would be considered a medium bore but in the U.S.A. it's considered a big bore (sorry GEMSBUCK).

As far as utility for everything is concerned, I don't think you could do much better than a 375 H&H Mag.  They tend to be accurate and the largish slowish bullets kill well and don't do much hide damage even on such thin skinned game like impala.  It should do just as well on deer and for anything else in North America.  It's a plenty flat shooter for 200 yard shots.

You might consider a CZ 550 American Safari Magnum.  I have one in 458 Lott that is comfortable to shoot even off the bench because of rifle weight, stock design and a very nice cushy recoil pad.  It also has a set trigger which I think is a great feature.  In addition to 375 H&H Mag., 458 Win. Mag. and 458 Lott, it comes in the great 416 Rigby and some other big bore cartridges.

I'm not a big fan of the 45-70 though I don't deny it will work fine.  The 375 Ruger might be worth a look though it hasn't been around long enough to be a classic and I like classics.  I have no interest in the 350 Rem. Mag.  I'm sure it works fine but in the time it has been around hasn't gone far.

[hillbilly jake]

thank you gentlemen.  i have bean weighing my options (a.k.a. trying to talk the wife into it) and i am kinda leaning toward the 45-70.  i know the one that my dad has shoots very well and i do like the lever action.  but, i am kinda like a fart in a whirl wind when it comes to being decisive so things may change.  i will keep you posted.  thanks again for the info. 

[GEMSBUCK]

GEMSBUCK, where did you get this, "Big bores start at .458 diameter and go up with the exception of the 375RUM, H& H.IMHO the 375 H&H is the best all round bigger bore and the 458 WM is the true big bore without going to the Lott or the NE calibers."

I guess my 416 Rigby is a medium bore.  Big bores start at .40. 

Rehawk everyone has their own opinion of what is a big bore. Mine starts at .458 but I don't consider the 45-70 to be a DG caliber over 50 yds. with that said a 400+ gr bullet of good contruction @ 1800FPS will kill most anything in the world at <50 yds.
 Surely "OUR" CZ 416 Rigbys are  big bores  as are the 404J and such. diameter alone doesn't make a big bore, ie .375 dia in a Winchester lever gun (375win)  is pretty much a beefed up 30-30Win and I'd never opt to face that grizzly with one by choice. GB

[Rev Buck]

Here's another vote for the .45/70    because I just LIKE IT!  You can load it down for deer and hogs or load it up to ferocious levels stout enough for any animal that walks on our continent.  Plus, it's just fun to shoot.  I'm also interested in the .350 but I think I would rather have it in a Remington 673.  Not that there's anything wrong with the others, that's just me.  If your shots will all be under 200 yards the .45/70 is cool.  Blessings, Rev

[Coyote Hunter]

hillbilly jake  -

Here’s my opinion of the cartridges you mention...

Savage 116fss .375 - 
This one might be a bit hard to find.  Savage doesn’t list it on their web site (at least I can't find it) and as far as I know Savage has never made a rifle with an action long enough to handle a .375 H&H cartridge.  That said, .375 H&H’s tend to be heavy rifles.  With a scope it is not uncommon for them to weigh in at 10 pounds or better.  The weight helps tame the recoil but gets wearisome in the hills.  A new Ruger in .375 Ruger will be my choice in this caliber, even though it will kick more than a heavy H&H.

Ruger MK II .350 Rem. Mag –
This cartridge doesn’t seem to be in big demand and unless you reload I would probably stay away from it.  Personally I would prefer a .338 Federal or Win Mag.

Marlin 1895 45-70 –
For shots that will mostly be under 200 yards the Marlin is a fine choice.  The best part of a .45-70 is its flexibility, especially if you reload.  I just got back from Sportsman’s Warehouse where I picked up a box (250) of LaserCast 350g bullets.  I’ll load these over 13.5g HS-6 for around 1097fps, one-hole accuracy at 50 yards and half the recoil of a .30-30.  The cost is about $2.50 per box of 20 when I’m done and the girls love them.  (So do I.)  I have a number of in-between loads but my hunting load is a 350g North Fork at 2183fps.  Recoil is stout but this load will take elk at 300 yards.  When the game bites back this is the gun I want in my hands.  The one deer I shot (197 yards) leaked blood like someone was slopping it out of a 5-gallon bucket.  The 6x6 elk (213 yards) just fell over.

One thing about the .45-70 that the others can’t touch is the fun factor.

[mk454]

i have two of the rifles you mention, i have a marlin gg 45/70 and the savage stainless 375 HH, it's the older safari model, now it's offered in the weather warrior 116 series.  here's my take.

1) 375 HH -- the most versatile and available caliber world wide.  the recoil is not that stiff, easily shot and i use mine for anything.  the harder construction of the bullets in that caliber make them not expand a whole lot on deer and thus puts em down and doesn't destroy much.  the solids and the x bullets have now made it a great caliber for anything that walks, in certain loads it's about as flat as the '06 and can easily be used as a long range rifle as long as you do your part.

2) that said, short of a double rife, i love lever actions and they are my favorite.  a 45/70 is very very easy to be good with at 200 yards and longer, much longer with the right rifle and sight combo.  the 45/70 has loads my son can shoot up to elephant rounds and anyone that says it's marginal for ANYTHING is a playing a game of paper ballistics and hasn't seen nor researched how effective the 45/70 is with the right hardcast loads.  when you can take a garrett hammerhead, tungsten penetrator, or other equivalent round from corbon or buffalo bore and shoot the north end of a buff and have it exit the south end, you don't need any more.  to think this cartridge is marginal for any bear or moose is laughable.  to date i've not found ONE load in .375 or .416 to match the penetration i've gotten with the best .45/70 rounds.

both calibers above offer so much more than the .35's i'd not even consider it.

[hillbilly jake]

this is great.  this is exactly why i joined this sight.  i am more of a field experience person my self as opposed to ballistics but until i asked this question that is all i had to go by.  keep the info coming.

[GEMSBUCK]

i
 that said, short of a double rife, i love lever actions and they are my favorite.  a 45/70 is very very easy to be good with at 200 yards and longer, much longer with the right rifle and sight combo.  the 45/70 has loads my son can shoot up to elephant rounds and anyone that says it's marginal for ANYTHING is a playing a game of paper ballistics and hasn't seen nor researched how effective the 45/70 is with the right hardcast loads.  when you can take a garrett hammerhead, tungsten penetrator, or other equivalent round from corbon or buffalo bore and shoot the north end of a buff and have it exit the south end, you don't need any more.  to think this cartridge is marginal for any bear or moose is laughable.  to date i've not found ONE load in .375 or .416 to match the penetration i've gotten with the best .45/70 rounds.

both calibers above offer so much more than the .35's i'd not even consider it.

how many elephants or buffalo has your son killed with his 45-70??? Yes it will work and yes it is marginal at best. An elephants skull is not a grizzly's shoulder blade or an elk's rib cage.
 
While elk,grizzly,cape buff have been killed with 12 ga slugs ,and in the cape buff case a 22 hornet neither of them are true DGR anymore than the 45-70 is.
 When your son has an elephant and a few buff under his belt come on back here and tell me how effective that 45-70 is.
 Fact is diameter alone is not what most of Africa's regs list as min. firearm level for DGR hunting. The 45-70 just can't get enough powder in the case regardless of what brand/type you use to push a 450-500gr bullet fast enough,safely( 2000fps to meet the regs. as JUST THE MINIMUM) I'm sure those pictures we've all seen where a cape buffalo or elephant are real...no doubt but not telling 100% of the truth . Cause unless a game scout was slipped a few $50s  the hunting took place in most cases on fenced game farms where multiple shots can be had as the quarry cannot escape. Or long waits for followups were taken.
 I load  my own 45-70 with 52.0 gr IMR3031/405 gr bullet/1800fps and have killed bison, blk bears,deer,and elk with that load, it is a good NA hunting load for forested areas. I own 4 different 45-70 Sharps Shilo, 1895 Marlin GG, Buffalo Classic 1871, Pedersolli Quigley target mdl but leave them home when not hunting PG in Africa ( it makes a superb PG rifle if you keep shots under 150yds. I killed a big blue bull eland with the 1895GG last year! But it ain't no DGR !!!!

[fknipfer]

Personally I have big bores, medium bores and a small bore.  Which one do I shoot the most, the winner is the 30-06.  The 45-70 and the 375 recoil is pretty stout, gets a little less with the.444 and the 35 Whelen.  But this is me they are all accurate, but consider the recoil of the rounds before you decide.

fknipfer

[mk454]

GEMSBUCK -- typical post i'd expect from you, the 45/70 has plenty of penetration, how many lions and buff my 11 year old has killed has nothing to do with anything.  i don't much care what you think minimum velocities should be b/c it didn't matter a bit to any of the elephants or buff  that have fallen to the 45/70 and all you have to do is call and talk to lynn thompson about how they've all fallen with no problem to the 454 casull and 45 linebaugh and arguments that call the 45/70 mediocre at best are typically made by those that have shot plenty of stuff in africa but are still paper ballisticians.  an extra few hundred fps matters not when your talking penetration with hardcast and punch bullets.  you find me the elephant whose skull that will stop a garrett or a grizzly punch bullet and then find a corresponding 416 load that will outpenetrate them in pretty much any medium or animal and i'll listen. 

you react like the typical 45/70 basher and didn't even understand my post in regards to my son shooting the 45/70.  i was referring to the readily available light loads anyone, even an 11 year old can shoot it, not that many readily available loads for my 375 for my son to shoot.  that was the point, not that those loads were set for elephant, but those sure as hell exist and if you don't use any of them in your expert "plethora" of 45/70's then that is your choice.  they do exist.

some base their decisions on ft/lbs of energy, some base it off of taylor ko values, some base it off of simply what works.  in 2/3 the 45/70 has it over the 375 H&H.  african countries have put arbitrary ft/lb energy figures on archers which has nothing to do with anything in archery, but they still do it.  what's more powerful a .460 weatherby or a 577 nitro?  that'll be fought over for years to come but because either is more powerful than what 90% of us use does that make what most use as being inappropriate?  i think not, the original post was about 3 calibers, stick to that.  of the calibers mentioned the 45/70 is certainly the most appropriate for such a task as dangerous game in my and many other hunters points of view.

[warf73]

I would go with the .375H&H maybe not the savage 116fss but the .375H&H for sure.


Warf

[GEMSBUCK]

  Nice little rant you got going there!
 Ask yourself this of all the lion,cape buffalo, and elephants shot each year throughout Africa what % are killed with the 45-70? Seems as though those "that have been there done that" know which calibers just don't give you problems and which are MARGINAL!
 You're free to take your 45-70 on an elephant hunt and post YOUR picson return...but I've seem what Zimbabwe,Tanzania, etc. call a prison. An bribes to a Gov't offical (Game Scout) are a pretty sure way to find yourself in one! Have fun and hold that bar of soap REAL tight.

[SHOOTALL]

Elephant , how about a 7mm. Mauser or 6.5 mm ? thats what has been reported Mr.  Bell used to kill over 1200 !
and the ammo was surplus military ball ! I have read many british settlers used .303's for most everything because they were cheap and surplus ammo was plentiful ! No doubt many laws exist today Mr. Bell didn't have to deal with ! And for sure firepower has increased beyond his expectation ,
Face facts today we have PH's and shooters ! the laws reflect this , the use of a gun of such power is mandated to protect the public in Africa , it would be criminal to leave a wounded beast to stalk the locals after a PH and client ( shooter ) had left , so like any Govt. laws get passed to compensate for lack of skill by the few who lack the skill or honor to " do the right thing " Some what like areas of the US where you have to pack out the meat before you can pack out the rack of ta game animal !
I would not cross the country in a model T , nor hunt dangerous game with a 45/70 , but I'm sure both have been done before , and maybe again ! I found it strange that most of the guides in Canada I talked to use a shotgun to hunt bear , they are easier to get and easier to get ammo for, the guns we use are not always chosen for the right reason !

[hillbilly jake]

I would go with the .375H&H maybe not the savage 116fss but the .375H&H for sure.


Warf

i was looking towards the savage because the retail price was around $750.  a .375 in my price range is kinda hard to come by

[GEMSBUCK]

Yes Mr. Bell did use a 7x57mm to kill over 1K of elephants for their ivory. the difference is he didn't care if he had to return to the area looking for vultures a week later to collect the ivory after it "soften up" for easy extraction....yes I read his book too

[mk454]

hillbilly -- the savage WILL take extra work to get it working where i think a large caliber rifle should work.  i think the cz is an imminently better base to work from.  go that route.  i prefer the savages in the smaller calibers but once you go 375 and above, go with the cz.

GEMSBUCK -- it's only a rant b/c your post was pretty smart a$$ in it's tone.  if it aint legal then it's not legal and no soap holding needed.  glad you got to experience that though, bet it was fun.  however, i'm talking about adequate and you keep hovering this magical 400 grains bullet weight and i think you just need to go work up some loads and different bullets, it's obvious you haven't done so yet, no matter how much stuff you've shot.  i don't need to post any pics, many many have already done so and done so very very cleanly and without problem. 

as far as bell goes, the only reason an elephant would go down in a week or two after being shot would be infection.  if the elephant is hit in the brain or vitals it's the same as any other game animal, it goes down.  if not, then it won't unless infection takes it.  no matter what misses the vitals, 458 of any stripe or 500's, no vitals, no death, unless it's infection later on.

many of your posts in the past are fairly contradictory, keep it up, it's entertaining.  one minute you're preaching on how a ph would kick you out of camp for shooting dangerous game over a hundred yards away, then several posts later you'll talking about advantages in DGR based on which will shoot and penetrate effectively out to 150.  well which is it?  a .460 weatherby has plenty of punch at 300, do i need that? or does another calibers restrictions beyond 200 make it MARGINAL? 

where's the line drawn.

[warf73]

I would go with the .375H&H maybe not the savage 116fss but the .375H&H for sure.


Warf

i was looking towards the savage because the retail price was around $750.  a .375 in my price range is kinda hard to come by

Here is a gun auction for a Winchester Model 70 has optics on it already, a nice package deal if it stays around that price. It's a little more than your $750 but it has bases rings and a Leupold scope already, which you will need for the other rig.

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=7989381

What do ya think?

Warf

[SHOOTALL]

Gemsbuck , I have read quite a few books and articles about Mr Bell , alot of his hunting may have been illegal at least toward the end of his career and a "speedy " kill and ivory removal was the mandatory for staying alive as much as not loosing the ivory ! Most of what i have read insist his knowledge of the shot placement with regard to elephant had no peer in his day and maybe never , it also takes into account how close the shots were and the need to drop the elephant at the shot because escape of an angry elephant at the close range would be impossible . As far as hot loading the 45/70 its been done since the 70's that i know of and i can see some Buffalo hunter giving his cartridges a little extra kick for range ( can't you ) long before that time !
I have no exp. with the soap thing ! so i will take your experinced word for it !
If we are honest the mag. cart. is here because of either game is  getting better at keeping hunters at farther distance or hunters loosing skill ! more people hunt so game gets better at staying alive , and more hunters with less experience are teaching them ! Lets face it cost of a hunt being what it is makes people take marginal shots , no one wants to go home with nothing ! Yes that is not morally right but it happens !
and i realize there are places where the mag. is a good choice , but i see white tails in va. shot with 300mags ,7mm mags etc. at 400-600 yds. or alot less , now i don't know of  any deer in va. that the distance couldn't be cut , with good stalking .
i don't cut anyone down for hunting either way as both require a skill but sniping and stalking are different , alot different !

[GEMSBUCK]

hillbilly -- the savage WILL take extra work to get it working where i think a large caliber rifle should work.  i think the cz is an imminently better base to work from.  go that route.  i prefer the savages in the smaller calibers but once you go 375 and above, go with the cz.

GEMSBUCK -- it's only a rant b/c your post was pretty smart a$$ in it's tone.  if it aint legal then it's not legal and no soap holding needed.  glad you got to experience that though, bet it was fun.  however, i'm talking about adequate and you keep hovering this magical 400 grains bullet weight and i think you just need to go work up some loads and different bullets, it's obvious you haven't done so yet, no matter how much stuff you've shot.  i don't need to post any pics, many many have already done so and done so very very cleanly and without problem. 

as far as bell goes, the only reason an elephant would go down in a week or two after being shot would be infection.  if the elephant is hit in the brain or vitals it's the same as any other game animal, it goes down.  if not, then it won't unless infection takes it.  no matter what misses the vitals, 458 of any stripe or 500's, no vitals, no death, unless it's infection later on.

many of your posts in the past are fairly contradictory, keep it up, it's entertaining.  one minute you're preaching on how a ph would kick you out of camp for shooting dangerous game over a hundred yards away, then several posts later you'll talking about advantages in DGR based on which will shoot and penetrate effectively out to 150.  well which is it?  a .460 weatherby has plenty of punch at 300, do i need that? or does another calibers restrictions beyond 200 make it MARGINAL? 

where's the line drawn.

 How do you manage to function daily? ie., your comment about an ele dropping after a week from infection (in reply to my writing about Bell returning a week later after the ivory "softened up" Even in Bell's day he was considered a poacher of ivory,thus his distance traveled.The softening up is AFTER the bull is dead!! And he returned with porters to round up his ivory. You should really open up a book now an again

 The 45-70 is a big bore in diameter but why do you think the 458Lott came to be? hint: YOU CAN'T GET ENOUGH POWDER IN A 45-70 CASE to do an adaquate reliable  job on DG. Oh you may stop a large bear with it and a bison with a CNS hit but it just isn't a DGR when the critters are taller than your home or think you owe them money.
 Keep popping thin skinned game with it and a blk bear or so make yourself happy while you wait to take your first DG hunt.

[corbanzo]

Nothing like reading a good flame war when I get to work at 5am 

The perception of what we see as a big bore has to do with what we will be hunting with it.  I don't know why in the heck africa all of a sudden became the main focus of this topic, jake just wants a big gun. 

The reason most people don't think of the .45-70 as big bore is because there really isn't much special about it.  It is a tried and true round which a lot of people hunt with.  It won't take a rediculous amount of powder, but in its lifespan, has killed a rediculous amount of game. 

Jake, are you going to go elephant hunting?  If so, the arguements here have basis.  If not, go by what you like.  The .45-70 has a big meplat, isnt going to impress a whole lot of people because of how many there are out there, and would be good for general shooting/hunting.  If you want to impress people, that is when you step up to the .458, the 375 mags, the .416 mags.  And if you dont call the .416 a big bore...  you need to go and shoot a .416 weatherby. 

Heck, to some people, even the .458 is becoming small potatoes, with the increasing popularity of the massive bores, like the .50bmg, .416 barrett, .577 tauranasaus, the NE cartridges, 460 weatherby, anything used for real hunting is almost automatically not a big bore.

Overall I would decide if you want something which you can shoot often without hurting yourself, or something you can shoot every once in a while, but have everyone at the range wondering what suddenly made the wind come up. 

[SHOOTALL]

corbonzo , like the way ya think , i guess some people have to buy size ,sort of like the guy with the fast sports car thing !
i don't have a 45/70 but now i think i want one , don't need a " big bore " my ego is just fine , WINK !
but a nice  "large bore" would be nice ! a proven , mild , cost effective round !
hillbilly jake ! after all this ya just gota let us know what ya get , enjoy what ever it is ! Watch out fer them pack-a-dearms !

[corbanzo]

I neither have a 45-70, but I know I am going to own one, it is just one of those rounds...  And it is gonna be in a lever gun, gotta keep a classic a classic, you know?  I've got the .458lott, so got the big taken care of, got the 30-06, so I got the hunting taken care of, but an extra rifle or 20 ain't gonna hurt nobody