Author Topic: So..I go from the frying pan into the fire... (Read 2918 times)

ironglow · « **on:** May 04, 2007, 04:15:14 PM »

I have been seeing some of these "managed" deer herds being harvested on TV "outdoor" shows..

Now, have I got it right ? ..They fence in a large area, plant special crops that deer just love and force-grow large racks on the deer.
Then either beside or even in these feeding fields they place an enclosed tree stand with small windows.
These enclosed stands (blinds) sit in the field all year while the deer grow fat and happy..and with large racks!

Then ..surprise..! One day the stand is occupied and then a client bags an unwary, big buck ..

I can understand the position of the ranch/preserve owner..it's business, and $$ are the bottom line....

But I just can't understand the client..no stalk, no hunting skills required, no still hunting...no fun as I see it and no real; pride in having hunted down a white tail buck and collected an honest to goodness "trophy"..

I would rather bag a wary, wild 4 point that I truly had to HUNT for..

What do I miss..where am I wrong ?

cattleskinner · « **Reply #1 on:** May 04, 2007, 05:18:07 PM »

I don't think you are off base at all. I have been thinking the same thing lately that hunting shows are the same old stuff thrown at you a different way, it seems like every one of them takes every opportunity in plugging the latest greatest product from their sponsers too. Granted, they are the ones paying for the shows, but it has gotten crazy the last year or two. That, and everybody now "lays the smack down" on their deer too for some reason...listen for it, and I am sure you will hear it too.

~~Amos

victorcharlie · « **Reply #2 on:** May 05, 2007, 02:36:59 AM »

I don't recall seeing anyone on TV kill anything other than a trophy class animal.......

ironglow · « **Reply #3 on:** May 05, 2007, 03:16:56 AM »

Sorry TV producers; but it strikes me as spearing a trophy Salmon in a 50 gallon tank !

Buckfever · « **Reply #4 on:** May 05, 2007, 04:40:53 AM »

Just another point of view on some stand hunting. I hunt in Canada and there are no fences and it is quit a challenge. First temperature can be as low as -20 below F. and you have to move your toes and fingers every 10 minutes to make it threw the whole day. I have talked to many hunters who will admit they don't have enought patience to do it for a whole week. The final thing is after a whole week hunting you may choose to pass shooting and try again another year.

As far as high fences and shooting fish in a barrel I agree it would not be much of a thrill for me. However, I can see where older hunters, kids, new hunters and disabled hunters can have a meaningful hunting experience. For me I want to drive my ATV miles into the vast wilderness and hope to have Mother Nature show me what she has to offer that day all animals not just deer. I am spoiled and really appreciate what areas I have to hunt. I go into the stand not knowing what I may see that day good or bad. I also love to stalk hunt especially in the West where you can see for a ways. Buckfever

TribReady · « **Reply #5 on:** May 05, 2007, 04:49:48 AM »

I definately don't want to be too judgmental or infight amongst hunters, but I also can't watch most of the "hunts" currently out there.
ironglow, you nailed it. These deer are essentially "trained" to feed in this area (how many shows have feeders in the shot) and the hunter just plops into the blind 200 yds away and shoots.
I'm not against feeders, food plots, herd management on your own deer population, but these ranches are no more than glorified shooting ranges. Like said already, there can't be much pride involved.
We all know, or hopefully know, how awesome it feels pulling into the driveway with a well earned deer in the back of the truck.

Buckfever, good point about older, younger, and disabled hunters. That's why we have to be careful not to be too harsh or judging. But the way these show hosts pump themselves up after their great kill is over the top. Also, kids can also learn from coming home "skunked". The appreciation we have just being out there needs to be passed on to them.

Great posts everyone. I'm sure many will follow on this topic!

jhm · « **Reply #6 on:** May 05, 2007, 05:59:53 AM »

You ALL are missing the point here, Its the advertising of products that is being aired not the hunt, the hunt is just a side line for them to get you to watch them advertise their and sponsored products, the next time you watch one count hoiw many different products are mentioned or shown during the hunt, and as far as the rancher goes he gets the brass ring as he has big named hunters on his place. JIM

.54 · « **Reply #7 on:** May 05, 2007, 06:17:39 AM »

I've actually seen a couple of hunting shows where they show a short recap of each day of the hunt and at the end the guy has gone home empty handed. I actually like seeing something like that because it seems more true to life to me.
I think these shows where they begin with the guy already in the stand and 5 minutes later a monster buck walks up probably don't help the public view of hunters. Non-hunters see stuff like that and have to think it's so easy, and there's no skill or difficulty involved in hunting. They see some guy spend 5 minutes up in the stand and minutes later kill a beautiful buck and they have to think there's no challenge or sport to it.
I'd love to see a show with a guy sitting in a stand while it's raining or it's so cold the guy can't talk cause his teeth are chattering. That's the kind of deer hunting alot of people can relate to and it would help non-hunters understand how difficult it can be at times.

ironglow · « **Reply #8 on:** May 06, 2007, 01:46:06 AM »

Buckfever;
I have no complaint about stand hunting of WILD deer, that' a fair part of the game..

JHM..I think you're "spot on"..commercial, advertising...follow the money trail..LOL

Right .54, It would probably be a much fairer picture of hunting to show how the hunter often endures very adverse conditions...and then goes home ..skunked..

beemanbeme · « **Reply #9 on:** May 06, 2007, 04:40:42 AM »

JHM hit it dead center. Those shows are to sell stuff. If a deer gets killed or a fish gets caught that's okay but the show is to sell stuff. And the reason they kill great big bucks or catch great big fish is so you will make a subliminal connection of "if I use xxx, I'll be able to kill great big deer." I'm kinda amazed that folks that call themselves experienced hunters don't see right thru it.

*ROCK-MAN* · « **Reply #10 on:** May 16, 2007, 03:21:06 PM »

Yeah,
Ive been goin on some of those hunts the last few years set up through different companys who offer us services at my job.They are kinda fun since we usually take 5 or 6 friends from the job and believe it of not a few have gone home empty handed.I've taken some nice axis and fallows and such and the campfire storys are cool and very nice accomodations=pool table,swimmin pools,skeet and trapetc
But they didn't compare to satisfaction I got from the 7pt(broke a tine) buck I took off the national forrest last year sittin on the ground leanin against a tree.Dropped him in his scrape.Now to me thats huntin.
Rock

dave375hh · « **Reply #11 on:** May 16, 2007, 08:52:59 PM »

I won't watch deer hunts anymore. When they take what seems like a long time to take the shot it drives me nuts. If I had taken that long around here I'd have gotten very few deer. Then they shoot a 2 yearold 8 point and gush all over it like it's a giant. The wife gives me hell for yelling at the TV. So I don't watch the dummys anymore.

dukkillr · « **Reply #12 on:** May 17, 2007, 06:57:08 AM »

It's simple to me, it's not hunting. It's killing. The local slaughter house isn't "hunting" when the kill all those cattle for market are they? Nope, they just kill and cut up the animals that have been feeding inside a fence for a while.

To me it's worse when the animal is native to the US. Shooting tame elk and whitetail is not only potentially misleading but sends the wrong message to other hunters and nonhunters. It tells people that it's the killing, not the hunting that's important. It also puts pressure on people to kill huge animals and fails to teach anything about wild animal behavior. On the other side, it you're going to shoot a blackbuck or axis or something at least there is no confusion about what you're doing. You're killing an animal that doesn't belong in the wild here, and you would otherwise not be able to kill.

A few months ago a gentlemen posted a somewhat bragging message about a young man who killed an elk with a 30-30. Several people including myself asked where it was taken, and what the circumstances surrounding the hunt were. There were some potential indicators that perhaps it had not been fair chase. For me the issue was what is being taught to young hunters (the future of our sport). Are they being taught that "hunting" is driving to a pasture, wandering around for a few minutes and shooting the first nice bull that thinks you might be feeding him? If that's the case, our sport is doomed. If, on the other hand, that hunter spent 2 days hiking into the backcountry, scouting, and patterning only to be in position to kill that bull at sunset on the 5th day of his hunt, I think we can assume that our future is solid. Obviously the truth probably lies in the middle somewhere, but the origonal poster declined to elaborate. Draw from that what you will.

I subscribe to Eastmans Journal and Eastmans Bowhunting Journal and own several of their books and videos. I watch their show religiously. If you're concerned about what you see on TV, I suggest you check them out. They stand for the proposition that hunting and killing are not the same thing. That the journey is at least as important as the destination, and that hunting is about a whole lot more than big heads.

ironglow · « **Reply #13 on:** May 18, 2007, 02:57:58 AM »

Agreed, Dukkiller..

wncchester · « **Reply #14 on:** May 18, 2007, 03:27:54 AM »

Those canned "hunts" are not for me. I've grown old pursuing game in fair chase and only rarely get a shot at a deer. But it's the DOING that I love so the packaged pursuits have no appeal. With that said, I do understand the appeal to some folks.

Consider this guys; you and I have land available from family, friends or leases and get to know the land over a period of time, maybe years. We have the time to gain skills in reading sign. Our hunting is very "labor intensive!" But some guys don't have the luxury of all that, they have little access and are simply too busy for our type of hunt. Many only have a couple or three days a year to devote to hunting. So, if they want to succeed they almost MUST shoot their deer in a barrel or not do it at all.

Most of those "hunters" are well heeled, as a result of the way they live and work, and we are lucky to have their voices and money supporting our side against the liberals. The land owners get to make a few bucks to feed their families too. Bottom line, it doesn't hurt the rest of us at all so it's really a win-win situation.

Canned hunts ain't for me but I'm glad they're available for others!

jhm · « **Reply #15 on:** May 18, 2007, 04:04:24 AM »

If you think (quote) those well healed hunters are paying for any of those hunts out of their pockets then you might think on dec. 25, a jolly old man in a red suit is going to bring you a new rifle, ALL of the equipment is paid for by the various companys, the rancher who guides the hunts is doing it for a reduced fee or free in some cases just to get the name of his ranch and the BIG FANCY GATE into the video, the hunters are drawing a salary for being the ACTORS in the video, Its all marketing, selling their various products nothing more, I personelly would be much more impressed with a 3X5 picture of a nice clean hunt, forget the videos being shot by a 2nd. and in some cases a 3rd. person in various trees to get the action correct. JIM

dukkillr · « **Reply #16 on:** May 18, 2007, 04:33:58 AM »

Quote from: wncchester on May 18, 2007, 03:27:54 AM

We have the time to gain skills in reading sign. Our hunting is very "labor intensive!" But some guys don't have the luxury of all that, they have little access and are simply too busy for our type of hunt. Many only have a couple or three days a year to devote to hunting. So, if they want to succeed they almost MUST shoot their deer in a barrel or not do it at all.

Now this is where I disagree. There are all kinds of things in our society that require time commitments to succeed. If my wife doesn't have time to make a cake for a local contest should she be allowed to buy a cake and enter it pretending she made it? If I don't have time to train for this year's Gritty Fifty (a 50 mile canoe race on the Kansas River) should I be allowed to use a motor? After all I didn't have time (I do have a full time job and a turkey season).

Being a consistent and successful hunter takes lots of things, one of which is dedication. Show me someone who puts up Pope & Young heads every year and I'll show you someone who spends weeks in the field. There is no easy way around that fact, nor should there be. Arguing against reality is the surest way to look dumb.

Now if someone wants to shoot a tame elk in a pen should they be able to? I don't know. But I do know this: If you kill an animal within an enclosure that fact should be stated plainly at the beginning and end of the story. If you're going to post a picture of some kid next to a tame elk, you should tell us how far you had to drag him to get the fence out of the picture. Too many times I've watched Jackie Bushman on OLN have an incredible hunt and at the end he's thanked the ranch. I've then googled the ranch only to find that the deer he was killing were trapped. To me that's false advertising. If you're so proud of shooting penned animals you shouldn't have any problem clearly declaring the details surrounding your "hunt".

beemanbeme · « **Reply #17 on:** May 18, 2007, 05:44:08 AM »

Dukkillr is kinda right but not so right that he ought to be too tickled.

What he talks about has been going on for a long, long time. Back in my youth, you would read about hunts and fishing trips by the authors that projected them as tremendous outdoorsmen and canny hunters. None of them mentioned that they were on fully guided trips after a xxx that the outfitter had been bird dogging since mid-summer.
If your wife wants to win a cake contest, she can't buy a cake and enter it but what is to keep her from hiring some sort of top dollar chef to "teach" her how to make and decorate her cake?? You have a high dollar job and your time is money, do you quit and move your family to BFE, Wyoming and take a job at $7.50 an hour sacking groceries so you have unlimited scouting/hunting time? Or do you go on a guided hunt where you fly into a package deal? A friend of mine has an "order in" with an outfitter for a blonde phased grizzly.
The fences are only another step. They keep the game in but also keep the general hunting public out. I've also seen the elk chasing the feed truck in Yellowstone. No fences but certainly not what you'd call free range.

dukkillr · « **Reply #18 on:** May 18, 2007, 11:18:01 AM »

Quite frankly nothing in life is black and white. At some point you have to draw a line at what is and is not acceptable. Killing wildlife that cannot escape a fenced in enclosure is where I draw it. Does a DIY hunter deserve more credit for a 350 bull than a guy who paid 10k to hunt in Gila? Yes. But I personally would consider them both hunters. I would not consider someone who shot a 350 bull in a fenced in pasture to be a hunter. That's where I've chosen to draw the line.

beemanbeme · « **Reply #19 on:** May 19, 2007, 06:39:41 AM »

Agreed. In fact, a fellow on a DIY hunt that kills a rag horn on public land may be the better hunter than the fellow that packs in (or helicoptors in) a couple of days beyond the road's end. But the burning question is at what size does the fenced in enclosure stop being an enclosure and become a big a$$ed ranch? Also, you have to consider the terrain. Here in Wild and Wonderful West Virginia, you could high fence say 100 acres and a fellow would have to work for any deer he brought out. In Wyoming, let's say, you can see acrost 100 acres. Just like the ongoing argument that sez if you shoot an animal at 299 yards, you're a helluva sport but if you shoot it at 301 yards, you're a spray and pray game slob, the size at which an enclosure stops being a enclosure will never be settled. Like you said, it depends on your comfort zone.

Having said all this, I've never been on a package hunt, but I do like playing Devil's Advocate.

corbanzo · « **Reply #20 on:** May 26, 2007, 02:53:16 AM »

ironglow - I think you hit the nail on the head in your first post when you called the shooter "client" and didn't mention anything about a hunter. It's because they aren't.

Graybeard · « **Reply #21 on:** May 26, 2007, 05:57:45 PM »

How big does that enclosure have to be to be "fair chase" to you? Does it matter if the "fence" are oceans on each side of the continent? Think carefully before answering.

buck460XVR · « **Reply #22 on:** May 27, 2007, 04:12:11 AM »

Bottom line is.... some enjoy the kill, some enjoy the hunt. I'm one of the latter. The idea that fences are not to keep the game animals in, but to keep the general hunting public out is....well, kinda like saying that hogs shot at a feeder in a fenced in area are feral. Hunting and ethics have been intertwined since man picked up his first throwing stick........unfortunately, todays media loves to exploit and sensationalize questionable hunting practices. It does little to promote the positive benefits of ethical hunting. Hunting is under continuously increased scrutiny and how we present our sport to the general public, will affect how and if our kids and grandkids get to enjoy it. Hunters are now a minority in this country, and the few of us that remain are ambassadors of this tradition to those that know only what they see on T.V.

just my two cents................buck.

The Gamemaster · « **Reply #23 on:** May 27, 2007, 04:42:55 AM »

There is a couple of things on them programs that gets to me also.

First off is the hunter spends hundreds of dollars of camo clothing and then the guide comes out with a red flanel shirt and blue jeans and cowboy boots.

Why would you even need camo if you were going to be sitting in a high blind where no one and no animal could see you.

Second off, if you had a microphone = you could hear the sound of the gate being opened on the pen when the Buck suddenly appears. That deer was more than likely in a pen or a trap and was released not more than 50 yards from the hunter when he saw it and shot it.

Archery shows are the worst, you get some idiot like Ted Nugent that is always waving his hands and talking and still the deer doesn't walk - or run away.

If a person had no experience hunting and wanted to learn how to hunt from them tv programs. he would never get a deer because he would make too much noise.

nyhunter863 · « **Reply #24 on:** August 03, 2007, 03:19:56 AM »

I do agree that many of the hunts on TV (especially whitetails in Texas) are hunted in enclosures, but that is NOT the case in all the hunts. Yes, most of these hunts are guided hunts on private lands where the opportunity for success on a trophy are 100 times better than most of us will ever get, but I guess that is what sells the shows for them and making money is the major motive in the TV hunting show industry. I do know however that hunts in Montana and most of Canada for whitetails are hunts for free ranging animals. I think the programs should make mention of whether the animals hunted are free ranging or not for it seems many viewers get confused and are beginning the lump all the hunts in the same category where it is being automatically assumed that the hunt is in an enclosure. I remember watching one program of a deer hunt in Michigan where there were trophies running out of every bush. Not once did the host mention that they were hunting in an enclosure. All he was say is "Just look at these huge Michigan bucks!". I could assure anyone that those were NOT the type of bucks that the typical hunter in Michigan will ever get to see anywhere they might be hunting free ranging deer in the state!

jhm · « **Reply #25 on:** August 03, 2007, 04:11:36 AM »

NYhunter: I was watching one of those shows showing a hunt up in Canada somewhere, I wont mention the hunters name only because I cant remember it, however she was a blond wearing glasses and a retired JUDGE, well she had this deer in the camera ready to take her shot on a free roaming northern Canadian deer, when in the deers ear was a green or yellow numbered ear tag, the kind we use in the cattle business to track when the calf was born and for tax purposes so we can show when the calf was born and sold, but in this case when the deer was born and when it was sold to the JUDGE< If that is real hunting well the JUDGE and ALL of her and suporters of that kind of hunt need to recognize that they are doing more harm to hunting than good. JIM

nyhunter863 · « **Reply #26 on:** August 03, 2007, 05:07:22 AM »

Well, I did say MOST of Canada. Surely there are fenced in areas for whitetails up there also, but I think the typical Saskatchewan or Alberta whitetail hunt is not. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that these type of hunts are doing more harm than good for hunting. It is really unfortunate that our native game most especially is being penned up as one other poster already mentioned. What is even worse and WILL probably be the death blow to hunting for the general masses of folks is that these shows with their emphasis on trophy hunting only will run the cost of hunting so high that the common man won't be able to hunt anymore. Most private land will be leased to the highest bidders and most hunters will not have places to hunt unless they cough up big dollars. To me there is NO deer that is worth the kind of money that is being thrown around these days.

beemanbeme · « **Reply #27 on:** August 03, 2007, 05:44:36 AM »

Hmmmmm, Texas is pretty much bought and leased up. Do we see a parallel with England where only the rich can hunt?

nyhunter863 · « **Reply #28 on:** August 03, 2007, 06:21:01 AM »

Quote from: beemanbeme on August 03, 2007, 05:44:36 AM

Hmmmmm, Texas is pretty much bought and leased up. Do we see a parallel with England where only the rich can hunt?

You got it! There are fewer and fewer private lands that one can hunt only by asking permission or for small favors like we used to in the past. Everyone is getting into leasing there land because it is bringing in some hefty dollars for landowners. Why let someone hunt for free when other hunters are coughing up thousands for relatively small parcels of land. Sure there always will be public land, but if everyone who currently hunts on private land now only has public land to hunt, it won't take a scientist to figure out how good the hunting will end up being there! Hunting is changing really fast and this emphasis on trophy hunting, antler restrictions, etc. will in my opinion eventually doom us.

rockbilly · « **Reply #29 on:** August 03, 2007, 07:35:53 AM »

Economics my friend, economics. Hunting in Texas is big business, with drought conditions, failing cattle price's, cost of feed, and upkeep on the ranch, such as fences, roads, buildings, etc, hunting is looked upon as a supplemental income for the land owners, and in many cases is the only means of income.

We learn early that there are several things you do not do in Texas, first, you never ask a rancher how much land he owns, second, you never ask a rancher if you can hunt on his property. Asking how much land one owns is kinda like asking, "how much money ya got in the bank." Second, a rancher might invite you to hunt his property if he deems you worthy.

Hunters themselves are the cause that many land owners will not allow hunting on their property. I have had hunters tear fences down, shoot cattle, leave trash all over the property, leave gates open, and bring others with them that were not invited. It only takes a few bad apples, and the pie is spoiled for everyone.

As for penned hunting, most of the ranches that have penned hunting consist of thousands of acres. A piece of land consisting of 4500 acres is eight square miles, (640 acres equals one section, one section equals one square mile) would you consider that a penned hunt? Would hunting in this big an area not be a fair chase?

As for releasing an animal for a hunter to shoot, I won't say it doesn't happen, but I have never seen it, and would readily condemn anyone you sells a hunt like that. Because an animal appears to just step out on cue most often is the result of good guides, long waiting, and the ability to start filming only when game appears. I know several good guides here in Texas that can put you on a quality game animal in short order, not because they are penned, but because the guide spends many, many hours observing the game, and know it's habits as well as he knows his wife's habits. These made for TV hunts require a lot more time and effort that most imagine, quite often a 30 minute air spot has taken a week or more to film.