suggestions for a 308 auto

[montveil]

i have a friend that wants to use a 308 auto for hunting white tails up to 300 yds. his budget is tight.  Any suggestions

thanks

[Mikey]

montveil:  There was a review of 3 semi-auto hunting rifles in Gun Tests magazine this month.  They tested Remington's 750 Woodmaster, the browning BAR Safari and the Benelli R1, all in 30-06.  The Remington came out on top.  I douobt anything would change if they were 308s.  If you are looking for a less expensive but accurate and definately reliable, the Saiga (Kalashnikov action) is available, and I'm sure there are others.  HTH.  Mikey.

[358Win]

Hi All:

   How disturbing, I typed a good long reply and then lost the window.  Any body know how to auto-save or do replies in another editor without having to do the old cut and paste trick?

[nomosendero]

i have a friend that wants to use a 308 auto for hunting white tails up to 300 yds. his budget is tight.  Any suggestions

thanks

No biggie to me if his main thing is wanting an auto, but if his budget is tight, why not get a less costly used bolt rifle & then buy a little better glass & have a better chance of a setup that can "group" at 300 yards.

[Grumulkin]

I personally, wouldn't go with a Remington 308 Win.  I had one; the 742 model.  It was known for having trouble with the bolt rails.  Maybe Remington has improved the design but I wouldn't want to bet on it.

Of the sporting rifles, a Browning or Benelli would be my choice.  If the budget wasn't tight, I'd say go for an M1A.

[358Win]

Hi All:

   A goodly share of the folks I see that are looking for a semi-auto deer rifle are either left-handed or ambidextrous.  If that is the case for you then stay with me, otherwise chat at ya next post.

   For those like me that are predominately left handed, and ambidextrous by practicality, a rifle that fires equally well off both shoulders is a great bonus.  The 4 most common types of rifles that switch hit are: 1) semi-auto, 2) single-shot, 3) pump-action, and 4) lever action.

   My personal favorite from a looks, handling, and balance point of view is the lever-action.  The down side is that most lever actions being sold today have some pretty serious performance issues.  The 3 main problems are: 1) tubular-magazine, 2) weak rear lock-up actions, and 3) anemic cartridges.

   First let’s start with anemic cartridges.  Hunting is like selling Real Estate, the first 3 rules are: location, location, and location.  Having a proper bullet for the ballistics and having enough gusto to get the job done are tied for 4th place after 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place prizes go to location, location, and location.  In this I like to work backwards from weak until I get up to promising.  That method minimizes noise and recoil the 2 deadliest enemies of the Location principle.

[BigJakeJ1s]

The Browning BAR ShortTrac (and Winchester's new clone thereof) would top my list for a semiauto hunting rifle. Second would be an AR10 type rifle in a lightweight configuration.

The Browning BLR is an ambidextrous lever action that is available in 308 and several other high performance cartridges (243win, 358win, 325wsm, 7rm, 300wsm, 30-06, etc.), since it has forward locking lugs and a box magazine that allows pointed bullets.

Andy

[358Win]

The Browning BAR and BLR are both excellent choices.  Available calibers in a short action include: 243 Win, 260 Rem. 7mm-08, 308 Win., 358 Win and 325 WSM.  Plus others of course.  My first choice would be a BLR in 358 Win.  I've been reloading for about 33 years, and working with the 358 Win. for over a year now.  This is an awe inspiring cartridge.  This is basically the same relative performance for the Americas as the 9.3x62mm is for Africa.  The basic ballistics of the 9.3x62mm is a 286 grain bullet at 2,350.  The 358 Win is a 250 grain bullet at 2,350.

Last weekend I went shooting at a gravel pit range.  I found several 243 Win cases.  I wondered if it would be possible to neck this up to 358 Win case dimensions.  Much to my surprise I was able to size up with no problems.  A bit of a warm up of the neck and shoulder with a lighter and then push it into a tub of Hornady Unique Case Lube.  Gently ran the case into the 358 sizer die and about 3 partial strokes over the expander and a final full length resize and presto changeo a good 358 Win case is made.  I haven't done a whole bunch yet, but the first 3 went fine with no neck splits.

I have previously formed case in the manner above using 308 brass.  In addition I made almost 400 cases by fire-forming 308 Lake City Match ammo.  Of course I previously checked the SAAMI specs for diameter at the Datum Line and found that the diameter and distance from the head is exactly the same for both the 308 and the 358.  This forms beautiful brass.  The 150 grain 308 bullets launch at 1,250 fps when fire-froming from loaded ammo.  Of course I can't recommend this practice as a good thing to do, as this is a bit hard on barrels.  But it is possible, and with an exact match of headspace it is safe.

[358Win]

Taking off from where I left off in Reply #5:

A couple of quotes from African Hunter Magazine provide a foundation for some of the later conclusions:
“The only area that Taylor considered the 9,3x62 unsuitable for was following up wounded elephant in thick cover, and most hunters would agree. The penetration is there aplenty, enabling the bullet to reach the vitals from any angle, but the sheer bullet energy needed to turn a close quarters charge just simply isn't there (nor is it in the .375 H&H for that matter). Nevertheless the 9,3x62 found immediate acceptance amongst even the large-bore fans in the professional elephant hunting fraternity, for use in open country where shots over 20 meters were the norm. In thick bush, or when following up a wounded elephant, the professional would then take his heavy rifle (a .500, .505 or larger). In truth, many of the small-bore fans kept at least a .450 double in reserve for wounded jumbo in the thick stuff. Wounded elephant aside, the 9,3x62 adequately fitted the bill for everything else.”
“George Rushby favoured his 9,3 double for both elephant control work and for shooting lion. Ten of the man-eaters of Njombe fell to George's 9,3, and he records with sorrow how he was forced to sell the 9,3 for financial reasons and purchase a .400 which, although just as effective on elephant lacked the "shocking power" on the big cats. This of course was simply a matter of velocity as the 9,3' s velocity is above the critical velocity at which explosive wounds occur in flesh (2200-2250fps), and so the bullets tend to produce a much more extensive wound and "shock" to the central nervous system than the larger, slower bullets.”

To condense several years of study and some actual hunting experience of my own (admittedly not a statistically significant sample i.e. < 10 head of deer, antelope, and elk):   In order to get quick results an initial flesh velocity of Mach 2 or higher with a Sectional Density of 0.3 or higher will provide complete penetration and significant shock.

To summarize this from the performance of the 9.3x62mm a 286 grain has a Sectional Density of 0.305  lbs/in^2 and a muzzle velocity of 2,380 fps.  What makes this “the easiest shooting major caliber” is a bullet weight that has the “magic” (i.e. Threshold) Sectional Density > 0.3 and stays above Mach 2 out to 80 yards.

[wolfen1960]

 I've been shooting a Remington Model 4 for about 15 years, with both factory and hand-loads (mostly hand-loads). I have about 5000 rounds through it with one problem, one time. Dirt from my son dropping a shell and loading it back into the clip failed to eject...once! This is a 6mm..though it should'nt matter. This rifle has been perfection as far as looks, handling, accuracy (as far as a semi with a stiff trigger can be) and reliability.
 For the price, the looks and ability,I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the Remington.

[358Win]

Taking off from last post

For North American purposes one can subtract a little bit (i.e. 10% from the requisite Sectional Density) giving a minimum of 0.270.  The following bullet weights are enlightening:
Bullet Weight   Bore Diameter   Sectional Density
   140              0.264           0.287
   160              0.264            0.328
      
   130              0.277           0.242
   150              0.277           0.279
      
   140              0.284           0.248
   160              0.284           0.283
   175              0.284           0.310
      
   150              0.308           0.226
   165              0.308           0.248
   180              0.308           0.271
   200              0.308           0.301
   220              0.308           0.331
      
   220              0.323            0.301
      
   210              0.338           0.263
   250              0.338           0.313
   300              0.338           0.375
      
   140              0.358           0.156
   160              0.358           0.178
   180              0.358           0.201
   200              0.358           0.223
   225              0.358           0.251
   250              0.358           0.279
   280              0.358           0.312
   310              0.358           0.346
      
   286              0.366           0.305
   320              0.366           0.341
      
   235              0.375           0.239
   270              0.375           0.274
   300              0.375           0.305
   350               0.375           0.356
      
   300              0.411           0.254
   400              0.411           0.338
      
   340              0.416           0.281
   410              0.416           0.338
   450              0.416            0.371

   Several of these bores deserve special mention.

   The 0.264 bore has good bullets in both 140 and 160 grain.  The 160 grain is what made the 6.5 x 54mm M-S such an awesome penetrator.  The very high sectional density of 0.328 makes for exit wounds in almost every case.  The 6.5 x 55mm Swede and the 260 Remington are both superior in that they can drive the 160 grain at 2,400 fps.

   So much has already been said by others in the 0.277, 0.284 and 0.308 bores that I won’t wear out my typing fingers on them.

   The 0.323 bore deserves a bit of comment in light of the fairly recent introduction of the 325 WSM.  This throws a 220 grain with a sectional density of 0.301 at 2,840 fps.  While that much speed is totally un-needed, the 325 WSM can be down loaded to about 2,500 fps giving better penetration and much less recoil and muzzle blast, the two worst enemies of field accuracy.

   The 0.338 bore is the single best bore diameter in terms of sectional density.  The 250 grain at 0.313 SD, and the amazing 300 grain with a SD of 0.375 WOW !!!  The 338 Win Mag is able to drive the 300 grain at 2,400 with 66 grains of RL-22.  These bullets deliver extreme penetration and shoot amazingly flat.  Zeroed at 200 yards the top of the bullet path is 2.8 inches high at 100 yards and only -11.5 inches down at 300 yards.  The “Browning BAR Safari” with its gas-operated action and steel receiver recoils much less than any other gun of similar power.  Part of the recoil reduction is due to the weight of the gun at 8 pounds 3 ounces.  By the time you add on a good scope, bases, rings, a sling, the BOSS-CR tuning weight and loaded weight is approximately 10 pounds.  If one lives in Alaska, Canada or Montana and needs a defensive rifle against Grizzly Bears the BAR Lightweigth Stalker with iron sights cuts drops the weight to 7 pounds 12 ounces.  In this case I would want to replace the factory sights with a Merit adjustable(0.025” to 0.155”) disc in a Williams WRGS peep at the rear and a FireWire front sight.

[358Win]

Hi:

   The 358 bore has many advantages.  In my BLR I've used 357 Mag Pistol bullets for plinking and small game loads.  The 180 grain out of a 358 Win does the same speed as a 180 grain out of a 30-06.  It is also great medicine for Antelope and Deer.  The 225 grain at 2,500 fps is hard to beat as an all around load.  Good from large deer up to Moose.  The 250 grain flies at the magic velocity of 2350 and is good for Moose, Black Bear, and Grizzly.  If you're fishing in Grizzly country and are in straight defensive mode it is hard to beat the 310 grain Woodleigh followed up by 310 solids.

   You're certainly on the right path with wanting a semi-auto 308.  The AR-10 is awesome if you can find one you can afford.  The Browning BAR is highly recommended and you can get your pet 308.  It is also available in 338 Win Mag and is the only truly shootable rife in this caliber.  The Remington 750 is also a fine semi-auto and the best news is that it comes in a 35 Whelan carbine or rifle if you'd rather.  DPMS makes and AR-10 in 260 Remington which is the sweetest set up I can imagine in a black rifle.

   In the end I’d suggest you abandon the semi-auto and get a Browning Lever Action in 358 Winchester.  You are then set for anything that can be found in North America.

[Bigfoot]

Maybe the guy wants a semi 308?

Since your friends budget is tight look into a Saiga, about half the price of a Rem 750 or a BAR. Otherwise I'd recommend the BAR. http://secure.netsolhost.com/575571.587307/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AOAL&Product_Code=IZ-139&Category_Code=FA 

[deltecs]

You might try a Win Model 100 if you are looking at for a .308 semi-auto.  This model was made in .358 semi auto too.  The .358 Win in the 100 is a bit on the expensive side due collectors as not many were made.  The 100 in .308 is still available on occasion through used gun dealers and occasionally on gun auctions over the Net.  Other than that, my choice would be the BAR if buying new. 

[Sourdough]

The wife has been carrying a Remington 7400 in 30-06 for 22 years with no proplems.  She only shoots factory ammo, since her reloads have to be done with small base dies.  She says it is too hard to keep her reloads seperate from mine and mine won't work in her gun.  She has saved my backside twice while out hunting with this gun, and I hope she never has a problem with her gun, my life may depend on it again.

Back in 1986 we had a Grizzly get downwind of me cleaning a Moose.  The Griz started running toward us, with it's nose in the air.  The wife started shooting when to bear was about 100 yards out.  She had a 10 round magazine in her gun, and was firing them off faster than I could have.  She emptied her magazine, dropped it, put in a five round magazine and fired three more times.  The bear actually went down on the 9th round, but it was still moving, and she was taking no chances. The bear was 15 yards away when it finally dropped.  When I skinned that bear there was 13 bullet holes in the hide.  Nine bullet holes were in the chest area most in alignment with the heart.  The heart had been totally distroyed, along with the right lung.  The left lung had also been hit.

Last year when she mentioned that she would like a BAR in .338 Win Mag, I listened.  The next morning I was at the gun shop and purchased her a BAR.  I also had it cut down to fit her, a 12 inch length of pull, and four inches cut off the barrel.

[sangdigger]

yep get a M-14/M1A if you want reliability and accuracy

[kenjs1]

358WIN - Where the heck can one get there hands on a shorttrac or a BLR in 260?  I have never seen one listed or advertised.

[Rangr44]

[presto changeo a good 358 Win case is made. I have previously formed case in the manner above using 308 brass.]

No disrespect, but I've been a handloading since 1968, and putting  .35 caliber slug into a case with a .30 caliber headstamp has always been real bad kharma.

Especially if that ammo gets out of your immediate control, and some noob tries it in a long-throated .308.

It's scads easier, to tell that a .243-marked .358 isn't really a .243, than it is with something that looks identical.

Please consider painting the heads of that "beautiful brass", at the least.