Author Topic: A Big Thank You To Missouri Cannon Works (Read 3384 times)

mac_hunter · « **on:** May 09, 2007, 06:13:26 PM »

I finially made it back to the US almost 2 weeks ago and got my mortar from Missouri Cannon Works today. WOW what and awesome implement it is and heavy. I knew it would be heavy but didn't realize how heavy. John did an excellent job on it. I'm very impressed. I'll get pics of it put up on here in the next couple of days. You all will have to wait for fire and smoke pics until I get some fuze and powder ordered. I can't wait to find out it's potential for bark and bite.

missouricannonworks · « **Reply #1 on:** May 10, 2007, 02:23:59 AM »

Mac_Hunter,

You are very welcome it has been a pleasure!

mac_hunter · « **Reply #2 on:** May 10, 2007, 07:06:52 AM »

Specs:
Bed - made from one solid piece of white oak dimensions of which are 7" H, 12" W and 26.5" L.
Tube - I believe John said it was made from seamless tube and plugged with a threaded, pinned and welded breach plug that contains the powder chamber. ID of Tube is 4.5", OD of Tube is 6.5", Face of Muzzle to Back of Trunnion is 15", Face of Muzzle to Powder Chamber Bottom is 10.75", Face of Muzzle to Powder Chamber Top is 8.5" and Powder Chamber Diameter is 1.5". Vent was drilled at 90 degrees and has .25" diameter. Unsure of total weight, my sisters digital bathroom scale said error when I put the whole thing on the scale without me.

missouricannonworks · « **Reply #3 on:** May 10, 2007, 03:45:02 PM »

Where did ya get that itty bitty coke can?

Well the can is the right color , wrong shape and wrong contents, I heard somewhere people have been stoned to death for less!

LoL Great looking mortar!

mac_hunter · « **Reply #4 on:** May 10, 2007, 03:51:28 PM »

After pay day I'll be placing an order for powder and fuse at which point I'll retake the pictures with the "right" can and some with smoke and hopefully fire. I figured the can that I put in the pictures would suffice for now for perspective.

Rickk · « **Reply #5 on:** May 10, 2007, 04:29:36 PM »

fuse is handy, but not really needed. There are a couple of home made alternatives that actually work better.... one slower and the other instant. The only "expensive" part to either version that many use are paper straws, and some are using post-it notes instead of straws.

If you are mail ordering powder, the more the better (up to 25#) due to the hazmat fee that is the same be it one pound or 25 #. Just remember that you have to store it someplace (besides under your bed).

mac_hunter · « **Reply #6 on:** May 10, 2007, 04:47:52 PM »

At some point I aim to try my hand at making some of the various ignition devices (quills and what not) that have been described on this forum. For now to just see, feel and hear her go off I thought of ordering some fuse, friction primers and quills from one of the company's listed on the stickies at the top of the board. The vent was drilled out large enough to accommodate the use of friction primers and I would like to see how they would work in my mortar, I know that it is heavy enough to probably not move under the force required to operate the friction primers. I know they are a bit expensive, I just want to see how they work.

As far as storage of the powder, I figured that I would order just enough to get a few blanks fired per the instructions I got from the manufacturer of my mortar, for now. The way I have it figured, the powder won't be around for more then a day or 2 after it gets delivered, at least in the form that it arrives in.

Rickk · « **Reply #7 on:** May 10, 2007, 04:57:40 PM »

for blanks, the 1F "Skirmish Powder" that Powder, Inc carries is a really inexpensive way to go. If you buy enough it is $7.70 a pound delivered.

Mail ordering powder in less than 5# increments costs a fortune, so play with the prices including shipping/hazmat when you are shopping. Typically, even going from 5# to 25# cuts the delivered price per pound in half.

Powder, Inc's prices have shipping included, and their online ordering page has an instant calculator built into it so you can juggle quantities and see what happens to ther price. They will let you mix grades to get to 25# (or other goals in 5# increments).

Note to anyone else reading this... the "out of stock" note that was on Powder, inc's web site for Goex Cannon grade has been removed... buy now before it happens again.

What grades of powder are you planning on using for blanks and live?

mac_hunter · « **Reply #8 on:** May 10, 2007, 05:05:11 PM »

I've been toying around with the prices of black powder on Graf and Sons website, they are pretty close to where I live (about 2 hour drive) and was planning to call and see if I could just go and pick it up, would save shipping and hazmat fees that way. Who knows though with gas prices the way they are.

I was told to not go any smaller in granulation then 1F for anything in this mortar. I thought of using Cannon grade for live loads and 1F for blanks. Unless I have that backwards. Isn't it the finner the granulation, the higher the pressure or should I say the quicker the pressure builds?

Rickk · « **Reply #9 on:** May 10, 2007, 05:12:06 PM »

Cannon grade is courser than 1F.

Cannon grade for live loads and 1F for blanks sounds like excellent advice.

Unless you are planning on taking out enemies the next state, your live loads will be quite small. Start on the rediculous end of small charges to begin with.

Blanks on the otherhand will tend to be quite large.

I don't know exactly what your manufacturer recommened charges are, but I would be surprised if you get more than 6-12 blanks per pound.

Preacher_of_Boom · « **Reply #10 on:** May 10, 2007, 05:16:37 PM »

+1 on the powder suggestions from Rickk. I got my 25 lbs. today! (5lbs. of Goex and 20 Lbs. of Skirmish) My wife signed for it and brought it in the house. I had fun scaring her by telling her to be careful not to bump the package -- or, Boom!

Your mortar looks great! Is the 4.5" a 12-pounder and the 5.5" a 24-pounder? I haven't figured that one out yet. I love that mushroom shaped plume of smoke they make.

Rickk · « **Reply #11 on:** May 10, 2007, 05:20:31 PM »

my wife has learned what the red sticker means and if it has the red sticker on it , it goes into the woodshed untill I get home and figure out where it should go.

Normally, I figure what she doesn't know won't hurt me, but that is one of the exceptions to my rule.

mac_hunter · « **Reply #12 on:** May 10, 2007, 05:25:28 PM »

For LIVE (projectiles) loads the recommendation was about half an ounce to start with.

For BLANK loads the recommendation was about 4 to 8 ounces, which is quarter to half a pound.

It was also recommended that I play with the blank loads until I find something that I'm satisfied with then stop there.

I also understand that for live loads, by varying the amount of powder used, you vary the distance your projectile goes. If the recommendation is 2 ounces of powder per inch of bore and since my mortar has a powder chamber that is 1.5 inches in diameter, then my maximum live powder charge that I should never go over when firing projectiles is 3 ounces.

Anyone think different, please advise.

mac_hunter · « **Reply #13 on:** May 10, 2007, 05:27:35 PM »

Thanks Preacher. I can't wait to put fire to powder in her. Yes, 4.5" is a 12 pounder and a 5.5" is a 24 pounder.
Also, do you mind me asking what you paid to get that 25 pounds to your door?

Rickk · « **Reply #14 on:** May 11, 2007, 12:56:29 AM »

5# goex cannon and 20# 1f "skirmish" would be $213.50 at Powder, inc (including shipping).

What are you using as projectiles (how heavy)? A half ounce sounds reasonable for starting, but only at a decent place to shoot (couple hundred yard range). I don't think it will go that far, but less is better when uncertain. With a chamber that size you could go a bit less and still get decent ignition if you wanted to be on the safe side for the first shot. Once you light the fuse, you can't stop it, and you are responsible for where it goes.

8 ounces, especially of 1F, for a blank seems a bit stiff to me, but the Missouri Cannon Works more than likely has enough practical data to know what is safe in that design. 1F for blanks is definitly the way to go, as a mortar subchamber is really short and there isn't a whole lotta time to wait for a slow burning powder(Cannon Grade) to burn. Even 2F may be OK for blanks. "The more complete cannoneer" even casually and evasively mentions 2F for blanks, but loading suggestions with 2F are not clear. That would be sort of a slightly scarey "your own your own" way to go unless Missouri Cannon Works has tried 2F and can recommend it.

Mortars won't give you as big of a boom as a cannon so if it isn't ear shattering, it's not cuz you didnt put in enough powder but that is is the way it is supposed to be.

How deep is your powder chamber? I am thinking that 8 ounces won't fit in there.

If 8 ounces does fit in there, you will definilty want to be ordering powder in 25# cases

Preacher_of_Boom · « **Reply #15 on:** May 11, 2007, 03:23:57 AM »

I paid $212.75. Cannon grade is 15 cents more per pound.

I thought prices had already gone up and I was saving money. O, well!

mac_hunter · « **Reply #16 on:** May 11, 2007, 04:17:44 AM »

If I measured right, I believe my powder chamber to be 2.25" deep by 1.5" in diameter.

As far a projectiles, for now I have not come up with anything other then that I was told to try a softball. I dropped one down the tube and it appears to be a bit small. I may have to patch the softball with a couple layers of old tee shirt to take up some of the windage.

I'd like to get a hold of some zinc and cast up some balls for it, but would need to get a mould made and would need to come up with the zinc. I believe that the ideal ball diameter I would need would be 4.3875"diameter with the correct windage of .1125". My tube is .120" under bored for a 12 pounder. It's not the full 4.62", it's 4.5" even.

I was even looking at 110mm bocce balls online last night. Thing is, 110mm comes out to 4.3307" which gives .1693" of windage.
111mm bocce balls which are 4.3701" would take up a little more windage at .1299"of gap.

Someone help. Would the most common 110mm bocce balls be a pretty good projectile for my tube or would I be better off to try and find something that is a bit tighter fitting? Basicly I'm asking, can I have too much windage?

mac_hunter · « **Reply #17 on:** May 11, 2007, 04:32:29 AM »

Just got off the phone with Graf and Sons and they do allow customer pick-up which would save me the shipping and hazmat fees. They sell their 1F for $11.99 per pound, Cannon is $12.39. Graf and Sons is located in Mexico, MO 135 miles from where I live. Now, to figure out if buying my own gas and driving there and back will still be cheaper then paying the hazmat fee and shipping

Rickk · « **Reply #18 on:** May 11, 2007, 06:33:40 AM »

25# x $11.99 is about 300 bucks.

Powder,Inc beats it without even considering gas.

as far as 4.5 projectiles... too much windage and both accuracy and distance will suffer. Closer is better. a couple tenths if an inch will allow a fair amount of blowby. If you can get a couple balls cheap, nothing wrong with trying it however.

Suggestion... take a drive to both the supermarket and to the hardware store with a tape measure clipped to your belt and measure the diameter of anything you find that might be around 4.5 inches and fillable with concrete.

I think that schedule 40, 4 inch PVC pipe is nomiinally 4.500 inches in diameter by the way. You would have to figure out a retainer method so that the concrete does not blow out. There may be an inside 4 inch to 3.5 or 3 inch reduing bushing available that can be glued inside and give the concrete something to grab onto. I know they make reducing bushings for copper pipe... not sure about pvc. Alternatively, some groves cut on the inside wall may be all it would take to hold it in place.

GGaskill · « **Reply #19 on:** May 11, 2007, 08:02:01 AM »

Windage exists to allow loading a fouled bore. It also works as a "safety valve" to limit pressure, but you can lower pressure by using less powder. 2.5% windage is good up to about 24 pounder bore; beyond that it becomes a powder waster.

Tropico · « **Reply #20 on:** May 11, 2007, 09:18:45 AM »

I will have to do a little checking out in my van however Black ABS sewer pipe may be the way to go....., a sleeve of 4" ABS would give you your 4.5 inch outer diameter. Now a 3" ABS pipe is 3.5 outside.........., meaning a glue-on 3" ABS cap should be 3.5 inside and 4.0 on the outside. It is possible to create a few re-usable "Cannon-Balls" I would think. Perhaps glue a 3" cap inside a length of 4" pipe., then concrete...,then a cap again on the other end. You could even drill a hole into one end cap and bolt in an eye bolt .., for tying on a small tracking flag !

mac_hunter · « **Reply #21 on:** May 11, 2007, 12:01:47 PM »

4" ABS isn't going to work in my mortar. It wouldn't even get down a clean, non-fouled bore with it having a 4.5" OD. My mortar's ID of it's tube is exactly 4.5", not the 4.62" that it should be. It was made with seamless tube. I'm going to have to do what Rickk suggests and take a tape measure or calipers to the supermarket and the hardware store (Lowe's) and see what I can find that I could then put concrete into. It will have to be around the diameter of 4.3875" or smaller, but I don't think anything smaller then 4.3307". I believe that anything smaller then 4.3307" will allow too much gas to go by and not give me the performance that I'd like to see.

GGaskill · « **Reply #22 on:** May 11, 2007, 12:09:27 PM »

You could resort to boring it a little larger.

mac_hunter · « **Reply #23 on:** May 11, 2007, 12:13:29 PM »

I've already thought about that. I'm sure that a machine shop that bores out and hones engine cylinders could bore the tube out the .120" I would need to get it at 4.62". I suppose it would have to be a diesel shop, since most gas engine cylinders don't go to 4.62" diameter, or do they?

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #24 on:** May 11, 2007, 12:17:19 PM »

I measured 4" pvc pipe and it is 4.500" OD - extremely regular.

SO, my big mortar (on the left in the avatar) has a 4.550" bore diameter - works well with PVC pipe filled with concrete. Let it set up several days -- if it's not setup until DRY it may well slide or slide out of the pipe.

It's a little light, I usually get about 7.5 lbs to the lengths I shoot.

Boring it to 4.62 would make it standard. That's good if you want to compete. That's problematic for finding ammo.

Any good machine shop with a milling machine and a boring head for it could do it. It's not much to cut - not as if it were a solid piece. It could also be done on a lathe if they have a large enough steady rest and boring bar.

GGaskill · « **Reply #25 on:** May 11, 2007, 01:31:38 PM »

The new 6.1 liter "hemi" engine has 4.08" dia cylinders so I think most automotive machine shops can still handle greater than 4 inch bores. But the real problem with an auto machine shop is the cylinder boring machines are designed to bore an open bottom hole and wouldn't be able to bore the whole depth of a mortar bore.

Tropico · « **Reply #26 on:** May 11, 2007, 02:46:44 PM »

O.K. I just checked on my Van.., NOT pvc ...,4" Black ABS Sewer .,it measures 4 and 7/16 will that work?
Engineer the caps with some glue or epoxy to be one with the ABS (Inside of it) and fill with cement...,really this should work. Perhaps grab a 6" length of 4" ABS check the fit.....,then get busy at a Home depot. .,If need be ., you could make a wrap with duct tape outside the pipe to reduce the windage ., I dont know would 1/16 be too much windage?

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #27 on:** May 11, 2007, 03:21:38 PM »

Windage would be good to tight. IF it burns clean and watched the charges carefully (and had a GOOD smooth and cylindrical bore) it would be very efficient in burning powder.

mac_hunter · « **Reply #28 on:** June 16, 2007, 07:16:49 PM »

Alright guys. Time for an update on this post. First, got a hold of some dial calipers. Turns out my mortar has a bore diameter of 4.400", a full .220" shy of what I was hoping for but I'm still hopefull that I'll be able to find something reasonably priced to shoot from it. If I did my math right, the max diameter of a projectile should be no more then 4.290" to leave me proper windage. Second, got the order of 25' of fuse and 10 friction primers from Back Creek Gun Shop. I also ordered 35 quills from them and was surprised that all I got was empty paper straws about 16" long. I think I may try to make the quick match to stick in them that has been discussed on this board elswhere. Third, I picked up 10 pounds of 1Fg from Graf & Sons the other day. Since gas has come down, I know that it didn't take me the $20 hazmat fee plus the shipping that it would have cost if I didn't go get it. Only thing I paid was state sales tax over what they have their powder listed for on their website. Fourth and most importantly, I'll be posting smoke and fire pics real soon.

Stay tuned.

mac_hunter · « **Reply #29 on:** June 16, 2007, 07:43:41 PM »

Alright...I took my bore diameter of 4.400" divided by 40 and then multiplied the answer by 39 and got 4.290". This is what I believe my ball diameter should be to give me total windage of .110", or .055" of gap on each side of a projectile seated over powder in the bore. Correct? If so, I then went to the ASK search engine and wrote in the search line, "Convert 4.290 inches to millimeters". I got 108.966 millimeters for an answer. Next I converted 109 millimeters to inches and got 4.2913". My question is, I found 109mm Bocce balls online, will they work? Or should I go with 108mm?