Author Topic: Seating a bullet off the lands - an alternative method  (Read 1952 times)

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Offline BrnoB78

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Seating a bullet off the lands - an alternative method
« on: May 14, 2007, 09:35:55 PM »
I’ve previously used the “cleaning rod down the barrel” method of measuring the overall cartridge length, with the bullet’s ogive just touching the lands. I found the major weakness to this system was the fact that having a recessed muzzle crown limited the ability to accurately draw, and measure the precise distance between, the relevant lines on the rod. Consequently, I would greatly appreciate any advice or opinions from the readers in relation to the following alternative method :

 Method used for seating a bullet off the lands :
1.   Partially insert a bullet into the slit neck of a properly sized, unprimed case.
2.   Insert the dummy cartridge into the chamber and exert light pressure with a finger against the base of the case so that the bullet’s tapered nose or ogive makes contact with the barrel rifling grooves or lands.
3.   Then, fully insert the case into the chamber.
4.   Carefully extract the cartridge from the chamber – use wire hook in primer hole.
5.   Measure the length of the cartridge, from the bullet’s tip to the base of the case.
Note : This measurement should be the maximum cartridge length for that bullet in that rifle, with the bullet’s ogive just touching the lands of the barrel.
6.   Seat the bullet in a properly sized, primed case to a depth that results in a cartridge with an overall length 0.5 mm shorter than the maximum cartridge length – resulting in the bullet’s ogive being 0.5 mm short of the lands.
7.   Test fire several cartridges – check the PRIMER pressure levels etc and overall grouping size – further reduce the cartridge’s overall length if required.

Note : 1. Use a fine hack saw to cut the slits and remember to remove any burrs.  The slits reduce the frictional force on the bullet, allowing it to easily slide into and out of the neck. There is also less chance of the bullet being tightly jammed in the lands when the case is fully inserted into the chamber.
2. Drill the case’s primer hole out to about 3mm.
3. Shape a small hook at one end of a thin, stiff piece of wire – to be inserted into the enlarged primer hole and gently pulled to extract the cartridge from the chamber - rather than using a rifle’s more forceful ejection system which will possibly change the bullet’s precise position resting against the lands.
4. Using the above method, I recently loaded a batch of Hornady 65 Gr  V-Max  bullets for my beautiful old Browning B 78 High Wall .243 Win single shot rifle – resulting in a very respectful tight group. In the process, I’ve seated the bullet 0.6 mm short of the lands, resulting in only 2 mm of the parallel sides of this boat tail bullet making direct contact with the case’s neck. Could someone possibly inform me if there is any absolute minimum length for seating a bullet inside the neck of a case, and if there are any associated safety & performance issues. I’m conscious of the fact that, with such a small contact area, any rough handling might easily put the bullet out of alignment in the case’s neck. I’m new to reloading and often search such forums on the internet for helpful advice, one being the suggested starting point of seating a bullet about 0.5 mm short of the lands. My sincere thanks for any feed back.

Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: Seating a bullet off the lands - an alternative method
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2007, 10:24:32 PM »
what ive done in the past is size a piece of brass then use a lyman m die to open the neck slightly insert a bullet part way and then chamber it slowly.
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Offline Slufoot

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Re: Seating a bullet off the lands - an alternative method
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2007, 11:51:30 PM »
I use a case that has been fired and not sized. The bullet will slip right in the case mouth, I then hold the case with my thumb at the case mouth and push the mouth against a hard flat surface to make a small dent in the case mouth. You want just enough to hold the bullet, then I take a magic marker and color the bullet with it. This will show you if the bullet slips back out some during extraction from the chamber because the case mouth will rub the marker off the bullet.
The Nosler #4 reloading manual is were I learned this and it goes better detail than I have here.

Offline John R.

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Re: Seating a bullet off the lands - an alternative method
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2007, 03:21:56 AM »
Get a Stoney Point gauge and you will never go back to the old way of doing it.

Offline Old Syko

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Re: Seating a bullet off the lands - an alternative method
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2007, 04:48:45 AM »
Get a Stoney Point gauge and you will never go back to the old way of doing it.

I agree!!!  Makes life easier and with less guesswork.

http://www.cabelas.com/spodw-1/0003125.shtml

Offline quickdtoo

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Offline Old Syko

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Re: Seating a bullet off the lands - an alternative method
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2007, 06:26:47 AM »
Quick, have you ever used the Stoney Point and if so why do you like the RR EZ better?  I'm always open to new tools.   ;D (toys)

Offline Dave Weiss

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Re: Seating a bullet off the lands - an alternative method
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2007, 06:46:31 AM »
Ross, I'm fairly new to reloading also, but I think I'd stick to the COL in your reloading specs. I think I'd rather have the bullet seated in the case and "let the chips fall where they may" in regards bullet free travel.

>>>===> Dave
Hunt hard, shoot fast and trust your dog.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Seating a bullet off the lands - an alternative method
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2007, 06:47:02 AM »
Quick, have you ever used the Stoney Point and if so why do you like the RR EZ better?  I'm always open to new tools.   ;D (toys)


No, I never bought the Stoney Point cuz it was $30+, just did without. The $25 or nothing offer from Randy was a great deal and it works perfect. ;)

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Old Syko

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Re: Seating a bullet off the lands - an alternative method
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2007, 07:48:20 AM »
Quick, have you ever used the Stoney Point and if so why do you like the RR EZ better?  I'm always open to new tools.   ;D (toys)


No, I never bought the Stoney Point cuz it was $30+, just did without. The $25 or nothing offer from Randy was a great deal and it works perfect. ;)

Tim

Was just curious.  Maybe someone else has used both and has some input?  In my experience, the more distance from what you are actually measuring, the more room for error.

Dave Weiss, If you are new to loading and only loading (fair to middlin") loads, I would agree.  But, if you're searching for ultimate accuracy and possibly velocity without problematic pressures COL, among other things, become a huge factor.  After all most published COL measurements have more to do with magazine length and feed capacity than accuracy and pressure.

Offline Dave Weiss

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Re: Seating a bullet off the lands - an alternative method
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2007, 07:55:53 AM »
If you read Ross' post, he says he is only seating the bullet 2mm into the case. Even being new, it occurs to me that might cause problems.

>>>===> Dave
Hunt hard, shoot fast and trust your dog.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Seating a bullet off the lands - an alternative method
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2007, 09:21:19 AM »
Was just curious.  Maybe someone else has used both and has some input?  In my experience, the more distance from what you are actually measuring, the more room for error.


I've been using mine for almost 2yrs now, the only complaint I've seen on it is it won't work in a .17 bore. Here's 6 more page of discussion and opinions on it...

http://www.predatormastersforums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=52152487&page=&fpart=all&vc=1
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Old Syko

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Re: Seating a bullet off the lands - an alternative method
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2007, 09:39:36 AM »
If you read Ross' post, he says he is only seating the bullet 2mm into the case. Even being new, it occurs to me that might cause problems.

>>>===> Dave

Dave you may be right.  I don't know.  Seating depth is relevant to a particular combination of components and firearms only.  I've spent a lot of time around some long range guys that do some things that I personally might not do and they work out well.  So who am I to say it ain't right?  2mm as I understand it is approximately .079 in. Correct me if i'm wrong.  Is that not enough?  Again, I don't know since I've never tried this particular combination.  I'm unaware of any published absolute minimum.  I would think, as long as proper neck tension could be maintained there would be no problem.

Thanks for the extra link Quick. 

Offline Dave Weiss

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Re: Seating a bullet off the lands - an alternative method
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2007, 10:15:42 AM »
Old Syko, I don't know. Ross seemed to be concerned about the shallow seating depth and I narrowmindedly tend to relate shooting to hunting. 3/32" seemed very shallow to me, but I don't know. Thanks,

>>>===> Dave
 
Hunt hard, shoot fast and trust your dog.

Offline PA-Joe

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Re: Seating a bullet off the lands - an alternative method
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2007, 11:07:32 AM »
In some actions you cannot reload to the max col. COL may be limited by the magazine length or the actions ability to load a fresh round. Try a few and make certain that they will work in your action without binding on the action or magazine. You should also consider the bullet manufacurer's recommended seating depth. The old rule was that you should have at least one diameter inside the neck.

Offline Bubber

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Re: Seating a bullet off the lands - an alternative method
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2007, 11:26:59 AM »
I don't know the validity of this, but I read once somewhere that you want the bullet seated into the case at least as far as the bore diameter, IE a  22 caliber would be seated .224 inches into the neck.

I have always done this in my 22-250 and usually it is not a problem as the bullets are long enough that the seating depth is more than obtained. However when loading very light (short) bullets it is not possible to have it both ways.

Offline BrnoB78

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Re: Seating a bullet off the lands - an alternative method
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2007, 11:40:50 PM »
Bubber, the Hornady 65Gr V-Max 6mm bullet is relatively short, hence my concern that only 4mm is seated in the case – of which only 2 mm are bearing surface due to the boat tail design and the fact that I’ve elected to seat the ogive 0.6 mm short of the lands. Increasing the bearing surface by seating the bullet deeper into the case only increases the ogive’s distance from the lands – I guess I’ll just have to load up several batches of cartridges seated at different depths and compare their groupings etc.  The joy of reloading – thanks for your advice.

Offline pagris

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Re: Seating a bullet off the lands - an alternative method
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2007, 07:47:48 AM »
Ross:  My variation on your technique is to place a very tiny dab of epoxy on the inside of the cartridge neck, at a 90 degree angle from your slits, using a toothpick. Then I insert the bullet and chamber the cartridge in the action and let it sit overnight.  This result is a permanent COL gauge that I label with a permanent marker with the rifle/bullet information.

It is a fact that, using such a light, and thus, short bullet in a .243 will give you problems in seating the bullet close to the lands and still have enough bullet in the case neck - quite honestly, I believe you are asking for problems with only 2 mm of bullet bearing surface within the neck. 

The other notion that you might want to investigate is getting a gauge that allows you to measure the ogive length of the cartridge, rather than the overall length - this technique eliminates any variation caused by deformed bullet tips while measuring the cartridge. Take a look at one version here:

http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=09-600
Thanks, Dad, for taking me into the great outdoors.

Offline beemanbeme

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Re: Seating a bullet off the lands - an alternative method
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2007, 05:39:03 AM »
Dave Weiss, you keep doing what you're doing.  Get a firm base of knowledge and understanding of reloading before you start grabbing some single facet of bench reloading and making a doxology of it.  It sounds like you're on the right track.
When shooting from a bench, single fire, with ammo you've loaded there, you can be much more cavalier with your bullet seating than you can in the real world of hunting.  What with traveling to and from the game fields, rattling around in a pocket or ammo pouch, repeatedly being loaded and unloaded, being violently racked into battery for a second shot, etc, you should be willing to sacrifice a bit of accuracy for reliability anytime.
And too, bullets being seated .002 off the lands is no guarantee of accuracy.

Offline BrnoB78

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Re: Seating a bullet off the lands - an alternative method
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2007, 01:55:39 AM »
Pagris, in relation to your following response to my query :
"It is a fact that, using such a light, and thus, short bullet in a .243 will give you problems in seating the bullet close to the lands and still have enough bullet in the case neck - quite honestly, I believe you are asking for problems with only 2 mm of bullet bearing surface within the neck."

I'm currently seeking advice on several different reloading forums about recommended minimum bullet seating depths in a case's neck and how to accurately determine a cartridge's O.A.L. when the ogive is touching the lands. In the process a number of people have advocated the rule of having at least one calibre deep in the neck, which equates to 6.17mm from the base of the bullet.

Bearing this in mind, such short bullets simply cannot be seated just off the lands. Armed with this new knowledge I'll load up several batches of cartridges at slightly varying depths to that recommended and trial them down at the rifle range - with the peace of mind that I've got more than 2 mm of bearing surface.  Sincere thanks for your input.

Offline coyotejoe

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Re: Seating a bullet off the lands - an alternative method
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2007, 03:31:38 AM »
In loading for the 6.5x55 I've found it impossible to load some bullets to touch the lands. Even though my rifle is an M-70 Winchester it still is throated for the 160 grain round nose and a sharp spitzer 120 grain or a 140 grain boattail would not be in the case at all if loaded out to that long throat. I avoid boattails and seat all bullets out as far as possible while leaving at least .200" inside the case neck but I would prefer a better hold if I could get it.
The story of David & Goliath only demonstrates the superiority of ballistic projectiles over hand weapons, poor old Goliath never had a chance.

Offline lilabner

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Re: Seating a bullet off the lands - an alternative method
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2007, 11:22:58 AM »
I believe the Randy Reeves system may be explained at www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/oal/index.asp
It looks like it would work. All you need is a cleaning rod, a couple of Sinclair cleaning rod stops, a plastic jag with the point cut off and a piece of wood dowel.

Offline coyotejoe

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Re: Seating a bullet off the lands - an alternative method
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2007, 03:44:08 AM »
Get a Stoney Point gauge and you will never go back to the old way of doing it.
  I guess I don't get it. I understand the Stoney Point measures the length to the bore diameter point of the bullets ogive but that seems like a useless number if you haven't first determined that length in your rifle's individual chamber. Now if one were loading a lot of different bullet types in one rifle it would avoid having to do that over for each different bullet but I've just never found that to be a great chore. I just start a loaded round with the bullet seated way out and a ring of lipstick on the ogive. Try it in the chamber, note the land marks in the lipstick mark, turn the seating screw down a turn and try again until I no longer see any marks from the lands. I then note that over-all length and that is it for that rifle with that bullet. Only need to do it once and it may take two minutes. If I had a Stoney Point gauge it would probably take me longer to find the dang thing. :D
The story of David & Goliath only demonstrates the superiority of ballistic projectiles over hand weapons, poor old Goliath never had a chance.

Offline beemanbeme

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Re: Seating a bullet off the lands - an alternative method
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2007, 05:50:06 AM »
If you are a reloader and need to go to the bathroom, there is somebody out there with a special thingie to hold your thingie while you go.  And there will be folks that will swear that its impossible to go without it.  :D

Offline Georgen71

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Re: Seating a bullet off the lands - an alternative method
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2007, 09:30:29 PM »
I like the method from coyotejoe, I have been using the exact same method for years only with black permanent marker, am going to try lipstick next time, Geo.