Author Topic: Back-up in africa ? (Read 1879 times)

Hatari · « **on:** May 17, 2007, 03:15:32 AM »

I hunt in africa (Buffalo, elephant, hippo....) and I want to buy a freedom arms with a barrel length of 4"3/4.
What's the better caliber .475 Linebaugh or the .500 Wyoming express ?

Sverre A. · « **Reply #1 on:** May 17, 2007, 11:56:21 AM »

Back up? Do you say that you don`t hunt the species with a handgun?

Graybeard · « **Reply #2 on:** May 17, 2007, 01:11:42 PM »

Don't understand the concept. Back up is what you pay the professional hunter for. Some, perhaps all of the countries there now expect handguns to be scoped for entry. I know JJ has said such is the case in SA.

Dee · « **Reply #3 on:** May 17, 2007, 01:26:50 PM »

I assume he is speaking of dangerous game. If one does not stop the animal with his primary weapon, would he believe that the animal will wait while he discards his primary, and goes to his backup before finishing his charge?

SJPrice · « **Reply #4 on:** May 17, 2007, 03:04:16 PM »

This one falls under the category of "threads that make you go, HMMMMM?

"

As for a "primary" dangerous game hunting caliber, in case this is legit(?), I would vote for the 475 with Belt Mountain Punch bullets. I am guessing that any game hit would be hard pressed to tell the difference between the two rounds as long as they were loaded to heavy hunting performance. Okay so I am sitting here bored with nothing better to do.

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #5 on:** May 17, 2007, 05:07:12 PM »

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM?

!!!!!!

Hatari · « **Reply #6 on:** May 17, 2007, 07:31:51 PM »

My primary rifle is a bolt action in .416 Rigby or a double rifle in .500 N.E. There is always a professional hunter with the hunter !!!
But when the primary rifle is empty...My question is, between the .475 Linebaugh and the .500 W.E. :
Whats is the best caliber for a good penetration and stopping power ?

MS Hitman · « **Reply #7 on:** May 18, 2007, 01:02:29 AM »

Defining "best" is always the tricky part. Practically, neither you nor the animal is going to be able to tell the difference between the two calibers. For what it is worth, the .475 Linebaugh has been around a bit longer and is not a proprietary round, making ammo a bit easier to obtain.

SJPrice · « **Reply #8 on:** May 18, 2007, 03:50:16 PM »

I guess I am still with others here in wondering how it is quicker to drop a 500 NE double rifle, draw and fire a revolver than it is to open, reload and snap the action back to bring 2 more 500 NE rounds to bear. Most double express rifle users teach themselves to carry 2 rounds between their fingers so theyt can be dropped into the chambers as soon as the empty cartridges eject. I must be missing something here. As for the two calibers in question, I agree with Hitman in that the 475 is more widely available at least for now. That may change in the future if and when the 500 WE becomes more popular

MS Hitman · « **Reply #9 on:** May 18, 2007, 04:22:59 PM »

SJ,

To be honest, a back-up revolver need not be used only in the thick of things. There may be times when one is occupied in activities in which a rifle would be cumbersome at best. So I can see some merit to the question being asked.

Sverre A. · « **Reply #10 on:** May 18, 2007, 07:48:12 PM »

"Whats is the best caliber for a good penetration and stopping power ?"

When your rifle is empty - and if you still have time to draw and shoot a handgun (which I don`t think you will have if you are charged) - I suppose that a 475 or 500 will do the same thing for you.
Both are powerful enough - and both will have so much recoil that it will take a little time to come "into modus" again.

If you not are charged - and you have emptied your boltrifle - the distance for a good shot with a revolver - will be too far I guess.
If you have a double and is charged - I think reloading the double will be faster than: throwing away the rifle, make a draw, cook the hammer, find the angry buffalo/elephant/hippo into the sights and hit it.

I would not think of a back-up revolver at all!

Rod in Pa · « **Reply #11 on:** May 19, 2007, 03:20:06 PM »

I think I will pass on this question.

?? Rod in Pa, Owner of a F/A .475 LINBAUGH, F/A 44 MAG AND A Model 83 22 LR. Rod in Pa.

Crazy Horse · « **Reply #12 on:** May 19, 2007, 05:24:48 PM »

I would go with the 475 Linebaugh and heavy hard cast bullets. All of the penetration tests I have read have shown the 475 to be a better penetrater than the 500 Linebaugh which is about the same as the 500 WE.

Hatari · « **Reply #13 on:** May 19, 2007, 08:17:40 PM »

Here is some pictures of my last safari, lion ,elephant, buffalo...the hunter with the P.H.

I have only a experience on the field of africa.

Some handguners hunters say that the .475 Linebaugh has a better penetration, but it is necessary to use the two hands and gloves....with one hand it is impossible, the recoil is very heavy.
They recommand a .454 Casull or a .44 Magnum for use with only one hand.
I search a caliber for my use with only one hand and with a good stopping power.

Excuse me for the mistakes, I am Belgian

Sverre A. · « **Reply #14 on:** May 19, 2007, 09:16:12 PM »

I have hunted all my african species with handguns. Mostly in .454 and 375 JDJ - and with both hands.

"They recommand a .454 Casull or a .44 Magnum for use with only one hand."

I would never think of shooting with one hand in a hunting situation - and believe that the guys who recommend 454 and 44 for one hand shooting in a hunting situation - are ......!

Hatari · « **Reply #15 on:** May 20, 2007, 05:14:23 AM »

The man on my left side with the lion is the P.H., he use a custom F.A. in .454 Casull with a roundbutt frame and a barrel band, he shoot with one hand............

Sverre A. · « **Reply #16 on:** May 20, 2007, 05:58:12 AM »

What kind of animals has he shot with that gear? Distance? Result? Load?
Did you see it by yourself?
Did he HAVE to do it - or do he usually shoot/hunt like that?

He must be a very, very special man!

I know a lot of good shooters (in world class) - and I`m sure that nobody of them even would think about doing what your PH do!

On a steelplate or a papertarget - well - but hunting like that?

?

I can`t imagine my self with a full-loaded .454/378 gr. bullet and one hand - when I shot my buff at 35 yds. last year.
And you can be sure that the buff don`t fell down like a sack after one hit - and follow-up shots with one hand - when the buff run between a lot of trees?

? Worse - if he charge!

With a cowboy-load and a little duiker at very short distance - without risking your own lifte - yes - but on B5/B6?

?

Ken ONeill · « **Reply #17 on:** May 20, 2007, 11:36:54 AM »

Let's see... I want a big bore back-up .475 or .50 cal. stopping handgun but only if it has a 4 3/4 " barrel and I can shoot it one handed.... UH- huh ! It keeps gettin' better and better. In light of all this, I recommend a .500 S&W with the barrel custom cut to 4 3/4", no compensator, and the hammer bobbed off. That way it can be shot double action only.
Hatari, as I responded on Sixgunner.com, buy the .475. Forget about using one hand until you're thoroughly experienced with the gun, after many hundreds or thousands of rounds, and then only when the buff has blood streaming from his nose, his horns are down and he's 10 yards away and coming fast. Better yet, kill him at 50 yards. With 2 hands, and the 420 gr. bullet in the right place.

STJ · « **Reply #18 on:** May 21, 2007, 02:43:44 PM »

Yes, you can shoot a FA 454 with one hand. I have with 360gr @ 1600fps (not ported)...Just don't expect to get a second shot off too quick. The gun rolls all the way back in your hand and the gun and your whole arm will go straight up...IF you don't roll with the recoil and hold it right the gun can leave your hand. Basically you have to allow you whole arm to act as a pivot point to allow for the absolution of the recoil. If you try a ridged hold on the the gun with one hand, the gun will take off the opposite direction of the bullet...The same can be done with a 475 also.

The 475 was developed by Linebaugh to allow for more penetration over the .511 cal 500. I haven't seen enough data to give an answer on the .500 cal WE. You may not think 0.011 would make a difference....But apparently 0.023 does when talking about the 475 and 454. It seems the 475 has just the right mix of 454 speed and .511 size and weight to make for a optimal big game pistol cal.

MS Hitman · « **Reply #19 on:** May 21, 2007, 05:34:19 PM »

John developed the .475 because the parent case for the 500 Linebaugh was being discontinued. Once upon a time, the .475 held a slight edge in penetration over the .500, but with the newer bullets we have, this is no longer necessarily the case.

The .500s, and I include the .500 WE and .50 Alaskan all perform very close to each other in penetration and all the heavier bullets perform similarly.

As far as shooting this stuff one-handed goes; that lion or bear is going to have to be breathing down my back pretty hard. Those guns can get on you very quickly and you can get hurt if not careful.

Hatari · « **Reply #20 on:** May 22, 2007, 02:23:50 AM »

Some explanations of back-up in Africa !

We are in the car (4x4) the P.H, hunter and the trackers, the driver stop the 4x4 in the middle of a river or in sand (breakdown), all the people leave the car and push it, suddenly a buffalo, a lion, etc ....(maybe it was hit by bullet) is coming to you and all the rifles are stay in the 4x4....

Sometimes when we walk many times, the hot weather, the sun, we are tired and you let the rifle have a tracker, suddenly same situations....and in this moment the tracker is 10 meters behind you.

What do you do in theses situations ?

EdK · « **Reply #21 on:** May 22, 2007, 02:56:40 AM »

Quote from: STJ on May 21, 2007, 02:43:44 PM

The 475 was developed by Linebaugh to allow for more penetration over the .511 cal 500. I haven't seen enough data to give an answer on the .500 cal WE. You may not think 0.011 would make a difference....But apparently 0.023 does when talking about the 475 and 454. It seems the 475 has just the right mix of 454 speed and .511 size and weight to make for a optimal big game pistol cal.

The 454 is "fast" because it is loaded that way: light for caliber (240gr) jacketed hollow points over max loads of slow powder. Loaded similarly for caliber (approx 270gr) the 475 would also be fast and probably perform relatively poorly in penetration testing. On the other hand the 454 loaded comparably to the 475 using blunt, hard cast bullets at weights around 340-350gr transforms the 454 into quite the penetrator. Two straight-walled cases, 1.4" long, differing in diameter by only 0.023", loaded to similar pressures, fired from the same handgun... how can they be different as night and day? Physics doesn't allow for it.

Not trying to state the 454 is anything it isn't here: loaded similarly it is still slightly less powerful than the 475. However this reputation for the 454 being a shallow penetrating speed demon while the 475 is a natural locomotive is not due to anything inherent in the round - just how it is loaded and applied.

Sverre A. · « **Reply #22 on:** May 22, 2007, 07:30:53 AM »

"What do you do in theses situations ?"

Shoot with two hands of course! Practical shooters shoots with two hands

You will find your target faster with two hands than with one hand - and the chances to hit the target is much better.
Go out and try - and you will see that I`m right.

Ken ONeill · « **Reply #23 on:** May 22, 2007, 02:22:36 PM »

No tracker or P.H. has ever, EVER, carried my gun. And none ever will. Anyone who is too tired to hunt properly and alertly should stop.

Hatari · « **Reply #24 on:** May 23, 2007, 05:35:44 AM »

If you must urinate or.... in the savanna, where is your gun/rifle ?

Sverre A. · « **Reply #25 on:** May 23, 2007, 08:46:25 AM »

In my shoulderholster!
If it should happen that I should hunt with a rifle in Africa (will never happen) - then it would be standing up to a tree close to me or on my shoulder

mk454 · « **Reply #26 on:** May 23, 2007, 10:05:26 AM »

EdK -- great post from someone that obviously "gets it."

at my cousins' cattle ranches we've had numerous opportunities to put bullets through large steers and a couple bulls that had to be put down over the last ten years and it's all about what a bullet is loaded to do. the biggest variation in penetration is the type of bullet moreso than caliber. i'd feel more comfortable with the proper load in a .44 mag than a .475 or .500 anything with an "improper" load. you need whatever you can shoot good. to be honest, with the best punch bullets and the best lbt loads with proper hardness you'll be hard pressed to find a meaningful difference b/w any of the above. the only loads in a hunting context that standout to me are the .460 and the .454 when it comes to trajectory at long long handgun ranges. with a scope and the right loads hitting gongs at 300 yards is easy and with iron sights the trajectory on a "normal" carry size pistol the .454 is what goes with me. for stopping. it's what i can shoot best and with the right load i'm confident in my .44 mag going through any skull or spine.

WL44 · « **Reply #27 on:** May 23, 2007, 10:14:00 PM »

Guys - not speaking from experience as I've yet to hunt dangeous game and your replies are all valid, but I suspect though that the question is:

When the chips are down and you are (for some or other reason which isn't relative) confronted with a very dangerous animal intent on killing you and you don't have your rifle with you and you may be lying on your back, hanging onto a tree branch five feet above the ground with one hand, or something similar, what handgun would you prefer to have?

My answer would be a double action - that's implied by any one handed situation - if it's a .454 (for which you can buy factory guns), or a .475, or .500 custom number is less important. But I think a DA with a barrel 5" or less would be my guess.

Not from experience, just my thoughts. If you suspect you'll end up in trouble some form of lanyard may be an idea too.

Sverre A. · « **Reply #28 on:** May 25, 2007, 10:34:35 AM »

"hanging onto a tree branch five feet above"
¨
If that should be the situation - I would - as you say - choose a DA!

But I wood choose a .357 - which have "no" recoil.

If you are hanging onto a tree - then I suppose the shooting distance is very close (1 - 3 m).
Then the .357 would be able to smash whatever skull!
And because of "no recoil" - you can let your trigger "go on".

Not so with a 454 or heavier!

Bullet in 357?

My choice would be a hard cast 200 gr.

Sverre A. · « **Reply #29 on:** May 25, 2007, 11:05:28 AM »

So Hatari !
The answers on your questions is "very wide".

If you want a gun for "everything" - choose a Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70 (92 cm long and very well balanced) with a Ghost ring - and with a weaverlook-base which can let you use a Doctersight and a scope.

Then you can "handle" all situations you are asking for!

I don`t count on "the tree-situation"