Author Topic: Which Big Bore and Why? (Read 9751 times)

Dixie Dude · « **on:** May 18, 2007, 07:21:16 AM »

I am considering a hunting trip to Africa and Alaska within the next few years. (Saving). I want a Mauser action, preferably stainless steel, with iron sights and tapped for scope. I was wondering the merits of each. .375 H&H, .416 Rigby, .458 Lott, maybe .375 Ruger. I would like the lowest cost set up. What is your preference? What about factory load availability in a pinch? Weight? Recoil? I want to hunt plains game in Africa with one or two dangerous game thrown in, like buffalo, bear, moose, and caribou in Alaska. I know I am going to take two rifles, I do have a .300 WM for non-dangerous game. I also have a .45-70 Marlin. Sorry if I am asking too many questions. I do not yet reload, but with the big bore and the cost of the ammo, I would get into reloading. Thanks

EsoxLucius · « **Reply #1 on:** May 18, 2007, 09:56:50 AM »

Winchester Model 70 Classic Stainless .375 H&H Magnum with a low power scope on quick detach rings and a Pachmayr replacement butt pad, or perhaps a McMillan stock.
Most people can shoot a 375 H&H well, ammo is available worldwide. With some work the said rifle can be made into a decent DGR.

Otherwise, for a rifle with more availability but is not stainless look to the CZ 550 American Safari Magnum in .375 H&H.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #2 on:** May 18, 2007, 10:18:17 AM »

Thanks, I was leaning towards a CZ. Does Winchester still make the stainless? I was also thinking .375 HH or .416 Rigby.

Lone Star · « **Reply #3 on:** May 18, 2007, 12:54:14 PM »

Winchester no longer makes the M70 rifles.

.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #4 on:** May 18, 2007, 01:02:00 PM »

Not stainless, but I have a CZ in 416 Rigby that is a great deal and shoots like a dream. Great for eveything you listed.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #5 on:** May 18, 2007, 05:37:14 PM »

Is the .416 Rigby as flat shooting out to say 200-250 yards as the .375 HH?

jro45 · « **Reply #6 on:** May 20, 2007, 10:47:19 AM »

The CZ550 Safari Classic 458 Lott shooting 500 gr bullets at 2266 FPS has about 74 Ft Lbs of recoil that doesn't bother me. I think its the stock it weights about 10 lbs. Fits real nice into my shoulder. It is good for any animal anywhere in the world.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #7 on:** May 20, 2007, 03:40:09 PM »

Quote from: Dixie Dude on May 18, 2007, 05:37:14 PM

Is the .416 Rigby as flat shooting out to say 200-250 yards as the .375 HH?

Lets look at 300 gr. bullets seeings how the 416 Rigby's starts there in bullet weight. The 416 Rigby at about 2700 plus feet per second compared to the 375 H&H with a 300 gr. bullet at 2400 plus fps. I would say the 416 Rigby is flatter shooting in the apples to apples comparison. Now the 375 H&H will handle lighter bullets and therefor probably would be flatter shooting out to 200-250 yards. But we are not talking much.

Grumulkin · « **Reply #8 on:** May 21, 2007, 02:19:16 AM »

My vote goes to the CZ 550 American Safari Magnum. I have one in 458 Lott and with the weight and cushy recoil pad the recoil isn't bad.

For your purposes, as far as cartridges are concerned, I'd go with the 375 H&H Magnum. It works well on anything and, from personal experience, is good on zebra at 200 yards. The recoil is also manageable (less than a 12 gauge shotgun shooting slugs). For a lot of places you would hunt in Africa, 200 yards would be a pretty long shot with most shots being under 100 yards.

Rangr44 · « **Reply #9 on:** May 21, 2007, 02:46:29 PM »

The forty-five seventy, loaded with Garrett HammerHead slugs.

Go with what you know - besides, it's a proven combination.

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/products.asp

corbanzo · « **Reply #10 on:** May 22, 2007, 06:15:13 AM »

Another vote for the CZ550 american in .458 lott, I love mine. If you are going to Africa to hunt dangerous game, get that, if you find something real big, you are gonna want a real big piece of lead to hit him with.

If you are coming to Alaska to hunt, you could just bring the .300WM, it's plenty. Or go with something a lot bigger. I'm never going to stop someone from going bigger

I would recommend the .416 weatherby, but that's getting real $$$

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #11 on:** May 22, 2007, 06:31:17 AM »

This is tough. The .458 Lott will handle .458 Win Mag if necessary. I checked the ballistics tables. The .375 HH allows lighter bullets for longer range plains game or Alaska. May have to get both. The .416 Rigby has lower pressure and maybe less recoil than the .458 Lott. May have to get all three. $$$. That is why we have so many guns. One size doesn't really fit all. .3006 comes close in North America, but so does the .45-70. What is the availibility of ammunition in Africa and Alaska in the 3 big bores mentioned?
Thanks

davem270win · « **Reply #12 on:** May 22, 2007, 09:50:02 AM »

You combined the words "cheapest" and "Dangerous Game". If that's your plan, you may want to take out some extra life insurance for your wife before you leave!

I'm no expert, but from what I have read, almost no off the shelf rifle will be absolutely 100% reliable without having a gunsmith do some work. This is fine when you're not hunting something that hunts you back!

If you search online, I believe you'll find some articles on DGR's and what it takes to be sure the thing goes bang, and bang again.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #13 on:** May 22, 2007, 10:14:08 AM »

So you are saying the CZ's off the shelf aren't good enough to hunt DG? From what I am pricing, Africa is less expensive than Alaska. I would probably be going with a few others and pay a PH to guide and back us up. I have looked at a CZ at my local gunshop and I am impressed with the quality and feel. Price for CZ's are very reasonable and I will be getting into reloading. However as to my last question, about ammunition availibility in Africa and Alaska. I already know I am probably going to have to buy two rifles. I just wanted to get one first and get used to it, then get another caliber. A friend of mine just got back from Africa and his rifles were lost in route by the airline (to many plane changes). He got them back 3 weeks after he returned from Africa. He had to borrow his friends rifles to hunt. He got a Cape Buffalo, warthog, zebra, and several horned species. Got me interested. Said with a group hunt it was less expensive than Alaska. Most of my hunting has been black bear and deer, I would also like to eventually hunt elk, moose, carabou, and grizzly or brown bear. I just thought going to Africa would be better before I got too much older and Alaska is American and the political situation in Africa can change in a heartbeat. I am going to retire in a few years so I'm not getting any younger.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #14 on:** May 23, 2007, 01:02:30 AM »

Yes the CZ is good enough right off the shelf for a DG hunt. My CZ 550 416 Rigby has functioned flawlessly and gives me one inch groups at 100 yards all day long.

corbanzo · « **Reply #15 on:** May 23, 2007, 03:39:11 AM »

Heck yeah that CZ550 is good enough off the shelf to hunt DG.

In alaska if you want big enough to knock stuff down, and small and fast enough to reach out and touch something far away... look into the .338 mags. I think I may have decided on my next rifle... a 700xcr in .338RUM.

I'm still saying the .458lott for african game.

Ammo - IF you are flying into Alaska, you are flying into anchorage, which means you can get any ammo you want. IF you are flying up north, you are mostly stopping in at Fairbanks - any ammo you want, they both have a sportsmans warehouse.(I love that place)

If you are goign to get two, and want them for these types of game, I would say one the biggest (.458 lott) and the other the fastest (338mag varient), but still big enough to put some hunks of lead on there if need be (as apposed to the 300mags)

And yeah, Alaska is expensive. We dont have any jeeps here, you have to fly everywhere, and gear and food and such are expensive here also.

kombi1976 · « **Reply #16 on:** May 23, 2007, 03:50:14 PM »

I'd be careful of my choice of cartridge for Africa.
The headstamp has to match the chambering on the rifle apparently.
I could be wrong.
The 45-70/Garrett combination for Africa is nice in theory but less than ideal in practise, especially for dangerous game.
I wouldn't take a 45-70 for African DG unless it was a Ruger #1 or a M98 and could be loaded up to and over 50k psi for performance close to the 458 Win.
Fast follow-ups don't make up for energy IMO.

mk454 · « **Reply #17 on:** May 24, 2007, 03:50:46 AM »

when have the garretts been less than ideal? you either hit the vitals and it penetrates or not.

kombi1976 · « **Reply #18 on:** May 24, 2007, 04:50:36 AM »

Quote from: mk454 on May 24, 2007, 03:50:46 AM

when have the garretts been less than ideal? you either hit the vitals and it penetrates or not.

Ideal means it's the best possible set up for a situation.
The 45-70 is not the best possible set up for DG.
People here in Oz regard them as less than ideal for the Asiatic water buffalo that are in wild up north.
375 H&H, 416 Rigby, 458 Win Mag and other cartridges of that ilk are ideal for such a task.
Can you do it? Yes.
Are PHs saying leave your 375 H&Hs at home and bring your Marlin 1895 instead? No.
If you're hunting Nth America AND Africa you need to allow for both and African game tends to be nastier and harder to put down.
That's why it's less than ideal.
I must say that from where I stand I often look at some hunters choosing cartridges and proving they can take a particular game rather than looking at the game and considering which cartridge is best.
Bullet design is great but it still doesn't make a 1800fps cartridge shoot at 2400fps or increase energy levels accordingly.
The 45-70 is a fine round but even for the stronger Marlin 1895 it still isn't an ideal African cartridge.
It wasn't DESIGNED to be.
That's why I believe you need to increase the performance and this is only possible in stronger Mauser or Ruger rifles.
But hey, that's IMO.

mk454 · « **Reply #19 on:** May 24, 2007, 05:17:52 PM »

so exactly which load can i put through my .375 HH or 416 rigby that will match my 45/70 with garrett's. so far i sure as heck haven't found any.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #20 on:** May 25, 2007, 01:24:42 AM »

Quote from: mk454 on May 24, 2007, 05:17:52 PM

so exactly which load can i put through my .375 HH or 416 rigby that will match my 45/70 with garrett's. so far i sure as heck haven't found any.

I have a bunch of 416 Rigby reloads that will out do the 45/70 from garrett's. Remember the factory loaded 416 Rigby's are loaded down for the same reason the 45-70 factory loads are loaded down. There are older guns that will not allow for the use of heavier loaded rounds, such as the older trapdoors for the 45-70 and a few of the older rifles for the 416 Rigby.

This compairson for the 45-70 to the 375 H&H and 416 Rigby has gone on for a long time, and when you can get 106 gr. of powder in a 45-70 case let me know.

mk454 · « **Reply #21 on:** May 25, 2007, 09:05:03 AM »

it's not about powder capacity and using your reasoning the 416 weatherby will outpenetrate the rigby and the 416 remington? if it did, then so what? then, if the standard 416 rigby rounds are good enough for dangerous game, why is it you have to handload to outdo the garretts and what tests did you run to prove that? for curiousity sake. by that logic, if the 45/70 isn't a good enough penetrator then the standard 416 rigby loads aren't either?

keep in mind, my comments aren't made to imply the 45/70 is the best penetrating round in history. it's simply to address those that don't think it's adequate and even really really good with the right rounds.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #22 on:** May 25, 2007, 02:21:10 PM »

mk454, I am not going to get into a big Pi$$ing contest over this. You want to make a point go ahead. I get tired of the same old argument, read the last 45-70 and 416 Rigby post. There is a lot of info there.

I happen to own both the 416 Rigby and 3 45-70's. So I have done a lot of testing with both, why not go get both rifles and do some testing for yourself?
Oh yea, Garrets is on the line of a custom ammo, not a factory ammo.

corbanzo · « **Reply #23 on:** May 26, 2007, 03:05:04 AM »

And most Garret ammo is admittedly overloaded (hence why it says +p on the hammerheads) I'm sure that with enough compression and stupidity I could load my .44 to keep up with your .45-70.

kombi1976 · « **Reply #24 on:** May 27, 2007, 05:50:26 AM »

Quote from: corbanzo on May 26, 2007, 03:05:04 AM

And most Garret ammo is admittedly overloaded (hence why it says +p on the hammerheads) I'm sure that with enough compression and stupidity I could load my .44 to keep up with your .45-70.

OUCH!!
Look, I just said it wasn't ideal.
More to the point, cartridges like the 416 Rigby were purposely "underloaded" so as not to risk dangerously high pressures created by by African ambient temperatures.
Those who use ammo in Africa designed more for Alaskan hunting could find themselves with serious issues if the loads are designed to run at the upper safety margin of the respective rifle action in cooler northern hemisphere conditions.

mk454 · « **Reply #25 on:** May 28, 2007, 02:01:44 PM »

not trying to get into a pissing contest either. i have both rifles and have made that abundantly clear. i don't care how garrett is classified, i don't load it, it's available to be bought. redhawk, my point is simply that if the standard load is sufficient and you have to handload something to get it to outperform the 45/70 then how is it it's not sufficient. that issue has not been addressed in any thread by anything other than paper ballistics and ft/lbs which are only parts of the equation. you evidently haven't even read the previous posts in their entirety and have offered very little in the way of answers.

corbanzo -- i'm sure you could load the .44 to some crazy velocities and whatnot to keep up with a 45/70 if you exceeded every possible spec. whereas the garretts are +P b/c they exceed the trapdoor level of pressure but are WELL within the winchester or marlin range of pressures. they are not even close to maximum.

no one is saying that the 45/70 is on par ft/lbs wise with the 416 or that it has the case capacity of a weatherby. i'm just waiting for something other than paper ballistics and some proof that the 45/70 with right loads is more than adequate for dangerous game. i've talked several that have and read many other accounts. i've talked to those that have developed the loads and now i'm wanting something other than ft/lbs as proof.

Gun 4 Fun · « **Reply #26 on:** November 14, 2008, 02:28:26 PM »

This is all quite interesting. I'm relatively new on this sight. I would only like to state that I have great respect for the ol' .45/70. I've owned a Marlin and Ruger #1. I liked them. The marlin [mine was a 1985 version] is the ne plus ultra for back-up /self preservation along a salmon stream, up in paradise.
Still nothing I could put in either of them [I load my own and have not shot Garrett's since it wasn't available at the time] would equal my Lott or my .404 Jeffery. I tried the Hornady 500 fmj's and every other bullet available at the time, in my Ruger #1, and that gun will take some pretty serious loads. When I say equal, I'm refering to penetration.
I'm not looking to take sides here, only to state my experiences.
There are people on this sight, as well as several others I frequent, that seem to be mesmerized by Randy Garrett's writings on his web. I don't know for sure, but I'd be willing to bet quite a pile of cash that most who talk about his loads are going strictly on what they have read over there and not on actual experience. His tests prove little. Wet paper is a piss poor medium, other than being easy to repeat.
I don't know any of you or your experiences, either on game or in testing your loads. I do know that not too many animals are made of paper, wet or dry. The only way to know what a given load will do is to use it on an animal, and there isn't a man alive who can kill enough animals with one round let alone several, to say which is best, or will out penetrate another.
In my opinion good is not always good enough.
Like I posted on another sight, energy doesn't kill. Big heavy bullets at reasonable speeds that have enough momentum to penetrate really well [provided they're constructed stout enough to do what you ask of them] , do this by punching holes in vital organs. However, over on that sight they were arguing about hardcast handgun bullets in certain cartridges, [.500JRH vs .500 S&W]. Here we're talking about higher velocity and with that comes the ability to start shocking animals somewhat. The .45/70 may penetrate like gang busters, but with little shock at the rather slow speeds of the Garrett loads. The bigger rounds have that edge, and in my own experience will penetrate any medium you want to shoot them into better than the .45/70.

Syncerus · « **Reply #27 on:** November 14, 2008, 05:30:53 PM »

Ignore the .45/70 hijack.

The simple truth is that most PHs in Africa will want you to use cartridges with which they are familiar. Pick the .375, a .416 or a .458. For 9 out of 10 people, the .375 is the most practical choice, but there's nothing really practical about DG hunting.

FWIW, I bought a .500 A2.

Yes, it really kicks that hard.

S.E.Ak · « **Reply #28 on:** November 14, 2008, 07:42:25 PM »

It don't matter what the 45/70 can do its not legal for DG in any part of Africa I know of.All of the first three rounds will do the job with the 416 being the middle ground.Make your guide do his job and get you within a hundred yards where flat don't matter.If the guide can get bow and pistol hunters close don't let him slack up and give you two hundred yard shots.

jro45 · « **Reply #29 on:** December 07, 2008, 04:53:38 AM »

I would get a 458 Lott for dangerous game and your 300 WM for plains game