Author Topic: No-Lathe Golf Ball Mortar ?  (Read 2659 times)

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Offline StealthyBlagga

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No-Lathe Golf Ball Mortar ?
« on: May 19, 2007, 11:49:09 AM »
I'm new to black powder and cannons/mortars. I'd like to build a golf ball mortar, but don't have access to a lathe. I have hand tools, a drill press and a TIG welder. Is it viable to build a simple golf ball mortar barrel from 1.75"ID DOM steel tubing, with a press-fit breech plug held in place with bolts and/or welds, as illustrated below ?



I'm thinking that the weld could go all the way around the base of the barrel to secure the plug, though this would mean the plug could never be removed of course. I could use only the bolts, but I'm not sure how they would hold up to the pressure. I don't know if the DOM tube's ID would be sufficiently consistent to be safe... if it is, I'd plan on using cotton patches to seal the golf ball in the bore.

What do you guys think of this concept ? Or should I bite the bullet and pay a machine shop to make the barrel for me ?

Offline GGaskill

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Re: No-Lathe Golf Ball Mortar ?
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2007, 01:26:22 PM »
I don't see how you could make the breech plug without a lathe if you are planning to shrink fit anything.  Successful shrink fitting requires tolerances in the range of .001".  Also I doubt that the ID of the tubing is sufficiently round to work without boring for roundness.
GG
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Offline jeeper1

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Re: No-Lathe Golf Ball Mortar ?
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2007, 02:07:50 PM »
Welcome to the forum.
It is better to err on the side of safety therefor I would not even consider anything less than a tubing wall thickness of .500 even with a powder chamber.
The touch hole should be closer to the rear of the powder chamber.
Also the trunnion as shown is not adequately attached to the tube, it needs either a channel to fit in or to be flattened slightly and welded securely.
Check the wall thickness of my golf ball mortar
I may not be completely sane, but at least I don't think I have the power to influence the weather.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: No-Lathe Golf Ball Mortar ?
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2007, 02:18:33 PM »
Here's one built from 1144 stressproof DOM and a 'round' of 1144 sp.  Uses the trunion to hold the two pieces together and secured with one setscrew.  Must be disassembled for cleaning.  A number of us build golf-ball mortars from these materials (check the first golf-ball mortar contest entries).

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Offline Double D

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Re: No-Lathe Golf Ball Mortar ?
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2007, 05:41:22 PM »
I used just such a system to to mount my Trunnion on my golf ball mortar.



Here's a link to my golf ball mortar build The K.I.S.S. Golf Ball Mortar

Offline StealthyBlagga

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Re: No-Lathe Golf Ball Mortar ?
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2007, 08:04:32 AM »
I used just such a system to to mount my Trunnion on my golf ball mortar.



Here's a link to my golf ball mortar build The K.I.S.S. Golf Ball Mortar

DD

Thanks - I based my idea on your design. The difference is that my concept is intended to avoid the use of a lathe. My main concern is about whether the bore of the DOM tubing would be sufficiently consistent and concentric.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: No-Lathe Golf Ball Mortar ?
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2007, 12:35:49 PM »
THE reason for DOM existing (well there are others) is it's uniformity in diameter, wall thickness and straightness.

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Offline Double D

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Re: No-Lathe Golf Ball Mortar ?
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2007, 03:57:15 PM »
Thanks - I based my idea on your design. The difference is that my concept is intended to avoid the use of a lathe. My main concern is about whether the bore of the DOM tubing would be sufficiently consistent and concentric.

The purpose of my design was to avoid welding  :)

Offline StealthyBlagga

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Re: No-Lathe Golf Ball Mortar ?
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2007, 06:09:35 PM »
THE reason for DOM existing (well there are others) is it's uniformity in diameter, wall thickness and straightness.



So is it your opinion that I could use DOM without further machining of the bore ?

Offline StealthyBlagga

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Re: No-Lathe Golf Ball Mortar ?
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2007, 06:10:43 PM »
Thanks - I based my idea on your design. The difference is that my concept is intended to avoid the use of a lathe. My main concern is about whether the bore of the DOM tubing would be sufficiently consistent and concentric.

The purpose of my design was to avoid welding  :)

LOL... I have a TIG welder and am at least competent with it. I'll take welding over turning on a lathe any day.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: No-Lathe Golf Ball Mortar ?
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2007, 10:13:49 AM »
I have a TIG welder and am at least competent with it. I'll take welding over turning on a lathe any day.

I have four lathes and two TIG welders and I like using both kinds of machine.  There are a couple of threads on this forum addressing DOM tubing and seamless tubing (by the way, DOM is seamed tubing and we don't recommend using seamed tubing for artillery.)  Neither of them are truly round nor exactly the nominal size.  Since shrink fitting items in the 2" diameter range requires about .003" interference; I doubt you will be able to achieve that kind of accuracy with off the shelf material.
GG
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: No-Lathe Golf Ball Mortar ?
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2007, 02:45:35 PM »
The issue of welding is one of porosity.  You WILL get some porosity (same issue with seamed tubing).  Over TIME the products of combustion WILL work their way into the pores.  They WILL eventually weaken the tube to the point where, with full service loads (much higher than what one would experience with a (light weight) golf ball) would not be safe.

SO, if the mortar is to be used with golf balls very little strength (relatively) is needed and DOM would be safe for "normal golf-ball launching loads".  Firing a lead, zinc or iron ball with full loads is another story.

The two designs presented were a result of having an excess of free materials (1144SP rounds and DOM tubes) that lent themselves perfectly to a contest of "send us the postage and we'll send you the steel and oak".

The beauty of using the 'round' and the DOM is that with the powder chamber in the round the pressure peak is gone past in time very quickly and the tube guides the golf ball under MUCH less pressure.

I could round up some more if anyone is interested.  We did get some very innovative entries (hint: do a search on 'contest')

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Offline Double D

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Re: No-Lathe Golf Ball Mortar ?
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2007, 07:11:48 PM »
As I understand it all DOM is not welded..... Some DOM is fully extruded, seamless.  Experts who know better jump in.

I was never ever able to locate a seam on any of the DOM Tim supplied.

Bunch of you guys still owe Tim and I golf ball mortars.  We sent out more kits than were entered in the contest.

Just a word of caution about misreading what CW is saying.  You may build a cannon knowing  the tube you are using has a seam and thus always load it down.  The corrosion in the micro pours can still occur and can still burst with light loads.  You may carefully monitor your tube for the condition, but what is the next guy going to do...never build a cannon with you in mind, build with the next guy in mind. 

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: No-Lathe Golf Ball Mortar ?
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2007, 02:24:53 AM »
I am in agreement that DOM is not necessarily welded.  Further, there is much working of the metal that (from reading one source that I'm still looking to find again) negates the effects of the porosity caused by welding.

Your extra word of caution on not building something that COULD be used with a heavier projo is well worth the emphasis, thanks!

I've turned perhaps 20 sections of the 1144sp DOM and there is NO indication of any irregularities that could be attributed to a seam.  Additionally I've seen bunches of them turned down in size and finished finely - again extremely uniform to the eye.



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Offline Don Krag

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Re: No-Lathe Golf Ball Mortar ?
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2007, 05:03:21 AM »
When I got my DOM, it was sold as "DOM Seamless" and was only available in lengths up to about 10'. I was given choices of ERW (electron resistance welding)-DOM, and DOM seamless. The ERW is rolled, welded, then drawn down over a mandrel for final shaping. According to the distributor, the weld is virtually undetectable. Having said that, I got some DOM off E-bay that looks to have a slightly discolored "line", visible after polishing, down the length. My DOM-seamless was 1.125 ID and seamed (pun intended :) ) to have a variance of +/- 0.002 using micrometers around each end's opening.
Don "Krag" Halter
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: No-Lathe Golf Ball Mortar ?
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2007, 01:04:13 PM »
This is from a reputable website, although there is no qualification given regarding the individuals making the statements.

I think it is a reasonable discussion of the ins and outs of DOM and seamless vs. seamed.

It does not address porosity of the lap welding done in the DOM manufacturing process.

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=92368&page=4

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Offline Double D

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Re: No-Lathe Golf Ball Mortar ?
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2007, 04:29:29 PM »
That is an interesting site Tim, even the Engineers are clear and none of them address the issue in the way we use tube.  I think I'll stick with N-SSA for now. 

Several years ago when I talked to C. Peter Jorgersen about some other issues, we did get around to this subject.  He said the debate is alive and well in both  Artillery groups  N-SSA and  AAA.  He tends to lean toward the use of modern ERW DOM.  But he also said that clear evidence of  ERW failures do exist so it's unlikely the rule will be changed anytime soon.


Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: No-Lathe Golf Ball Mortar ?
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2007, 12:51:52 AM »
It is indeed interesting.  I'll post a more succinct question regarding porosity and corrosive elements.  It may take a week or so to collect more than one reply, but y'all should be able to watch the conversation by doing a search and finding the thread.  I've not done a search on it so the topic may already have been discussed!



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Offline GGaskill

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Re: No-Lathe Golf Ball Mortar ?
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2007, 08:30:55 AM »
I think the details of the application may be of importance.  When you are using tubing for a liner, even in a cast iron barrel you have something that is backing up the tubing.  If you are making a freestanding barrel from tubing, then you have no backup and the tubing has to carry the whole load.  So in the latter case, I think seamless is clearly a better answer, even if it requires some machining. 
GG
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: No-Lathe Golf Ball Mortar ?
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2007, 01:50:26 AM »
I think the details of the application may be of importance.  ....


I LOVE understatemnet!
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Offline longcaribiner

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Re: No-Lathe Golf Ball Mortar ?
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2007, 03:46:52 AM »
There are plenty of ways to "do" things without a lathe.  When I was a kid, I watched/assisted my uncle in cutting a larger hole through a propeller so it would fit his boats shaft.  He used a piece of oak and a cutter forged from a piece of an old rasp.  We coated things up with old drain oil and hand turned the wood.  I kept brushing the oil on it as He and my cousin turned the wood.  We cut the Prop hole to the proper size in a little over an hour.  He then fashioned a reamer out of an old piece of pipe and a chunk of that rasp and had it reamed mirror smooth in very little time.   A golf ball mortar can be bored to depth with a electric hand drill and then the hole "widened" using a home made cutter and hand turning it if necessary.  Or just buy the proper size drill bit and hand turn with a t handle, if your drill isn't large enough.    Some where around here, I have a small cannon that was hand bored in a chunk of bronze. 

Polishing the bore can be done with a piece of rod and emery cloth, cut a slot across the end and wrap some emery cloth around it and spin it like a hone with an electric drill.     In a pinch I have even used a stout cleaning shot gun cleaning rod and wrapped a thin strip of aluminum oxide paper through the loop.

I dislike anything that fits a tube to a pressed, welded or bolted breech. 

Near Gettysburg, PA a few years ago at a family picnic, a guy was "making noise" with his home made cannon.  It blew up for whatever reason and a family member was killed.  The poor guy was charged with some sort of negligent homicide and spent a couple yrs in jail.