Did a Stupid thing tonight

[Wolfgang]

Hello All,

Just got back from a larger city to the south of where we live and we do a lot of shopping there.  My wife wanted to stop at Wal-Mart and when we were going into the store we heard alarms going off and employees shouting "Get Him!"  This guy came running through the doors and slammed into the cart my wife was pushing with my two year old in the seat nearly tipping it.  I of course became instantly enraged and took off after this idiot.  He choose to get on a bicycle and try to get away but I had an angle on him and caught him about half way through the parking lot.  He bit the dust and didn't try to struggle too much after I had repeatedly identifed myself as a police officer.  After he was patted down and relieved of his ill gotten Wal-Mart booty, I started to think to myself what a stupid mistake it was to pull a stunt like that.  Fourtunately it turned out well and there were several shoppers who called the police and there was even an off duty cop from the city I was in that came in to help out.  I was armed (38 Airweight) and I had my badge and I.D. but I had no cuffs.  Again, lucky the guy didn't want to put up too much of a fight.  The on duty Coppers arrived and had the situation well in hand and I started thinking a whole lot about things I've read by Mas Ayoob.  I believe his words were something to the effect of the gun, badge and cuffs are a triad and I was missing part of the equipment that I should have had with me instead of being lazy and not carrying them.  I also started to re-think my choice of weapons as well.  I should have been carrying something with a little more punch and dressed around it rather than again, taking the easy way out and dropping the Airweight in my pocket.  My wife and kids, although some distance from the actual take down were never the less in the area and I should have been more watchful over them instead of taking off after the guy.  All turned out well and there were a lot of grateful people who thanked me for getting involved and stopping a thief but I can't help but wonder what if........

Wolfgang

[GatCat]

I am a retired L.E. Officer, and I think you did just fine. I think you were well-armed, you are not going against an Army. There was plenty of help on scene, and shortly after. Even IF you were alone and did what you did, and IF the suspect struggled and/or fought beyond your control you could have always backed-off, letting him run. OR, if you were alone, and he started to overpower you and attack you after you ID'd yourself as L.E., you had the means to stop him. You are to be commended for getting involved, with a fine resolution ( hopefully he will also be charged with resisting arrest).  Mark.

[Brett]

Wolfgang, 
    You done good in my book and are to be commended.  More people need to do what is right and not worry so much about what if.   What if you get run over by a semi on your way to work tomorrow morning?  It's a possibility...are you going to stay home in bed hiding under your covers.  No sir real heroes and heroins push their fear aside and don't look for excuses, they step up to the plate... like you did.

[magooch]

Well Wolfgang, the only thing you did wrong in my book is to tackle the perp.  You were armed; why didn't you shoot the sumbitch in the back of the head and watch him crash.  Just kiddin.  Love ya man; you did good.  Wal-Mart owes you a gift certificate.

[rockbilly]

Great job!

If more people had the guts to get involved in a situation such as this, society would be much better off.  You hear horror stories every day where people were killed or injured by some thug while a dozen wimps stood idly by and did nothing.  I know you have to be cautious, and refrain from jumping into something beyond your control, but doing what you can is a plus for everyone, and makes the crooks more concerned about who might be watching them. 

[williamlayton]

I have thought about this. I think it is good to reconstruct this matter and look at each part too see where you might do better,
I can't find fault with the way you did things.
In this circumstance your wife was in protected surroundings.
I would agree with the cuffs thought.
I think that you reacted with authority because you were confident--not over confident--of your abilities. I know that, at my age and physical abilities, I would have need to abstain from running. I would have too stand ground and defend from a fixed position.
If, say, in a few years, you might have to reconsider the chase and take down, leaving it too a younger person---but you were obviously aware of your ability.
Things could have gone wrong, but, in the best laid plans, things can not come of the way we want.
Your personal protection seems adequate--could have been more--but it is adequate for the area you were in---this is my personal opinion. I am often found with this caliber or less--a .380--and for a parking lot, close encounter, it seems a good thought.
I don't know that if you had need to discharge the weapon, at say 30 yards, it would have been the best choice. In a crowded parking lot that might not have been a good choice anyway.
I think the re-think has found you to be well within the boundaries of good thinking and proper reaction.
Blessings
 

[Mikey]

Wolfgang:  you handled the situation properly.  As an off-duty LEO you did what you had to do, period.  Your wife and child were safe - there was only one perp and he was trying to leave the area - he didn't try and take anyone hostage.  The fact that you were able to run after him and take him down speaks well for your state of health - better than mine, I probably would have thrown a brick at him, er sumptin........

As for your choice of handgun - very good choice!  It was available if you had needed it, fortunately not though, and the cuffs - well, you can carry only just so much without weighing yourself down unnecessarily.  He didn't struggle much after you brought him down - but you noticed you had to repeat, numerous times, that you were a police officer - I don't think he would have finally stopped struggling if you had not identified yourself as such. 

It does not sound as though you were unnecessarily rough on the guy - too bad.  Parking lots are hard macadem and there isn't anything like grinding someone's face into it to hold him in place.  I think lots of guys may have played ball with is head for slamming into the cart with their child in it or even jammed their snubbies into his mouth to hold him down ( I have seen that more than once and it works very well, although some may take offense at being unnecessarily hard on the guy - broken teeth and all.................).  I once watched a fella do something similar - bad guy was wearing a hooded sweatshirt and sweatpants - after being brought down, the good guy simply used his (bad guys) sweatshirt as a choke to keep him anchored - of course, he was also standing on the guy's hand and had his knee on his head so there wasn't much the bg could do. 

Also, one should never underestimate the effect of hitting one's head on a hard surface when falling from a bicycle - you can knock yourself silly, or unconscious or even suffer serious brain injury - after all, isn't that what bike helmets are for??  I think he is fortunate not to have suffered a serious head injury and gone on to become what Carlos Mencia refers to as a 'dee dee dee'................

He should be grateful that someone as kind as you are was there to help (snicker, giggle, lolol).  JMTCW.  Mikey.

[Dusty Miller]

To each his own guys but I'd've not endangered myself for whatever some creep can carry out of a retail store. 

[toysoldier]

To each his own guys but I'd've not endangered myself for whatever some creep can carry out of a retail store. 

The problem is, at what point is it "worth your while" to stop a crime? From what I have read, several cities and neighborhoods have reduced serious crime by not tolerating small or "victimless" crimes---prostitution, smoking pot in public, crap games, shoplifting, even littering. Big criminals do petty crimes, too. Whether you put away a gang-banger for a drive-by shooting or urinating in public, he's off the street for a little while. It's an inconvenience for criminals, and starts to establish a "hostile working environment" for them. It gives hope to the law-abiding, and may encourage them to co-operate in getting the big players off the street. So while no one is asking you to take a bullet for a total stranger, there should be no problem with tripping a thief as he runs by.

[Wolfgang]

Well guys,

I thank all of you for your support.  To put things in perspective though, I am not claiming to be any sort of saint nor hero.  I just wanted to point out that although what I did, I did out of mostly reflex, I should also point out that I was more than a little angry when this clod nearly knocked my wife down and in the process nearly tipped over the cart that my two year old boy was in.  I (thankfully) calmed somewhat when I reached him as that is when the true law enforcement officer came out.  By the time he was on the ground, I wanted two things... First I did not want him to hurt me nor anyone else.  Second, I didn't want to hurt him.  The loss to Wal-Mart was not really in the fore front of my mind.  Dusty, shame on you for not wanting to get involved.  I'm not saying that this creep was worth getting hurt over and I guess that you did not say that you would do "nothing" but I would hope that at least you would be a good witness for the cops when they got there.  There are no such things as victimless crimes as even something as petty as shoplifting affects all of us and is recovered by means of tacking on extra cost to the consumer who is paying the bill for the successful thieves.  knowing what your limits are and not exceeding them is very important as well.  Should the situation have gone badly and other people were put at risk, then I may have acted differently.  These thought processes run through my mind as this is a part of my normal job duties.  The bottom line is I what I thought to be best at that time and in that particular instance.  Everyone needs to remember that criminals almost never start out as big timers.  They start out doing stupid small things like this and as it gets easier they move on to bigger and better crimes.  And to all that are members here and on other web sites that involve the shooting sports it is the criminals that are the cause of our slowly eroding rights to enjoy our sport.  They are generally the ones who give the anti's a platform to grab hold and cry about the wickedness of guns. Sorry to rant but for those who choose to stick their heads in the sand and do nothing when others need your help then YOU are the biggest part of the problem.  There are more good people than bad and it's time that the good people take a stand and show the criminals that they are not going to be tollerated.  This post started out with me second guessing my actions and my armorment and at this point I think most of you have validated what I did and again have reinforced the fact that there are truely more good people than there are bad.  Also remember this, I was out of my jurisdiction, and I was armed as any other law abiding citizen could be in my state.  I acted as a citizen anrgry (husband/dad) who just happened to be able to identify themself as a police officer which happened to work out ok in this case.

Again,
Thanks for all of the support

Wolfgang

[deerslayer79]

I'm not a L.E. officer,but if the punk actually was willing to actually hurt or even risk hurting someone just for lifting something,he needs a good whoopin.I would of totally went apes!@#$ if it was my wife and child in that situation,put me in cuffs if they wanted,I don't care,NOBODY hurts my wife and kids....

[ironglow]

You did fine Wolfgang...
    It's possible that this may be a perp at the start of his career and there is a small chance that he may decide to go straight and get an honest job.
  Then too, if he is a thief because he is trying to support a habit..he may get help that way also.
 
  To let him skate by would have guaranteed more crimes...perhaps in the same store..(and others)

[Glanceblamm]

Well Wolfgang, the only thing you did wrong in my book is to tackle the perp.  You were armed; why didn't you shoot the sumbitch in the back of the head and watch him crash.  Just kiddin.  Love ya man; you did good.  Wal-Mart owes you a gift certificate.

 

Wolfgang, ya did just fine.
The turning point was that the perpatrator had messed with your family...Under those conditions he may have stood a better chance in a phone booth with ten angry lions!
I would have loved to have seen the tackle...bet you spread him and that bike on the pavement like they were peanutbutter!
I would think that this guy will be looking over his shoulder for along time if & when he entertains any more notions of shoplifting/robbery.

[SHOOTALL]

you are a good policeman , it shows !

[Wolfgang]

Again I thank you all.  I don't know what it looked like to others when Capone hit the pavement but I do know that he ended up about twenty feet or better away from his bicycle which I knocked him off of.  After he was sprawled out on the ground I ended up with a knee in his back between his shoulders and just sort of held him there.  I told him to stop struggling with me as I might interpret this as him trying to hurt me and he assured me that he had no intention of doing so since my knee was in such close proximity to his neck.  I think his exact words were something to the effect of "I ain't gonna move no more cause I don't want my neck broke.", or something like that.  I also had an attorney step out of the small crowd and hand me his business card and he said if anything comes of this and he tries to say I was too rough with him to call as he and his wife had witnessed the whole thing and he thought I was a gental as I could have been with him. 

Best,

Wolfgang

[papajohn428]

Wolfgang, I think you did what 99% of the good cops would have done.  Even if it wasn't your own kid in the cart, just seeing that kind of stupidity set off the sheepdog in you, and put you in pursuit of the idiotic wolf that would carelessly hurt a child.  It's human nature to second-guess yourself after something like that, and we tend to be our own worst critics, playing the "what-If" game.  What if he'd had a gun, carjacked someone, run over a little old lady trying to get away from you.....it goes on forever, as you already know.  I know about the adrenaline surge after a pursuit, and I think you contained him properly without going overboard.  You didn't mention how old the perp was, but if he was a grown man riding a bicycle, I'd guess either he's fresh out of jail, unemployed, a doper, or a combination of all three. 

If it was me, I'd have included the "almost knocked over a cart with a small child inside" in my supplement to the arresting officer's report, and tried for an Assault charge by the local prosecutor!   

The bottom line is, the BG went to jail, you went shopping, and you met a nice lawyer who offered to back you up.  I'd call that three for three!

Papajohn

[alsaqr]

Good job. 

[Wolfgang]

The guy was in his mid twenties and the local deputies were familiar enough with him to know him by name.  I also asked him his name and shock of shocks, I have been arresting his relation in my city for a number of years.  The deputies did ask me if I wanted to pursue an assault charge but at the time, I declined having enough problems in my own jurisdiction to keep up with.  Kind of wish now that I would have pursued it.


Best,

Wolfgang

[superjay01]

I don't want to be the lone voice of dissent or make anyone mad at me but what you did was risky at best, and a bit on the stupid side. What you did was certainly honorable and I don't want to take anything away from that, but that shop lifter very easily could have had a pistol and shot and killed you, and for what? Some crap he stole from wal-mart. I know he pushed the cart that had your kids in it and that your wife was pushing it  but if he was running away he really posed no threat to them. Now before everyone jumps on me I worked six years as a paramedic and worked with law enforcement on a weekly basis, so I have a great respect for them and what they do. I have also seen the flip side of a shoplifter who had a gun. One case the store manager tried to stop the guy and he ended up dead and for what 3 cd's. The other one is where an associated chased a shop lifter out of the store to where his buddy was waiting in a car and he ended up dead as well. The other question I have what wal-mart was that? It's my understanding that they have a strict policy about chasing a shoplifter; if they run you do not chase them. Also the only alarms that I know wal-mart has is fire alarms so I'm not sure what alarms you heard going off.

[Wolfgang]

Superjay,

I thought about it as well and although it could have been risky, so is everything else I do on a day to day basis.  As far as the alarms, it was the security tab alarm that goes off when the tags are not deactivated.  I am not saying that everyone should get involved to the extent I did but then if everyone got even a little involved then a lot of this sort of crap would stop.  People have become way too tolerant of thieves and criminals of all kinds.  It will only get worse if people continue to act like sheep and allow others to steal from and terrorize them.


Best,

Wolfgang

[magooch]

I think if people knew you were a cop and just stood there and let the perp get away, they would be a little dismayed at best.  You did good and it isn't the fact that the bad guy was getting away with a paltry sum, it's that he was committing a crime.  He needed to be stopped--period.

I believe you potentially saved many more victims from this low-life thief--even if only briefly.  With a justice system that will most likely turn the guy loose to continue his career of crime, maybe I was right in the first place.  Maybe you should have put one through the back of his rotten head.

[Rogue Ram]

As an LEO supervisor with 20+ years experience, based solely on what you  wrote, I'd say "good job, now lets get pair of them light weight cuffs for off duty, OK?"  First day on the job the old equipment Sarge said" 4 things will get you kid: booze, women, lying, and off duty..."   YOU know your policy better than the rest of us, I have no issue with what you wrote. Carry the badge, carry the gun. Carry the gun, you WILL carry cuffs. 

By the way, that 20 years experience includes trying to do the right thing a few times (like you did) and looking like an idiot to some, feeling like an idiot to myself at times.

Imagine drawing down on a guy in jeans, polo shirt, carrying a machine gun in a local bank as you go to use the ATM.....NOW WHAT would a guy with a machine gun be doing in the bank? Local police chief, no ID, no markings, no NOTHING but a machine gun in his hands....that story, a year old, got turned 180 degrees into something that when I heard it I didn't even recognize it as the same incident!  I go out of my way to steer clear of things I don't feel I should jump into unless public safety is at risk....most of the local guys where I live figured out real fast who the bonehead was in that incident but nevertheless one feels pretty embarrassed.

Back on track, you did what you thought was right, don't second guess yourself, you did fine, get some lightweight cuffs and move forward.

Good job, be safe brother.

RR