Author Topic: Military brass?  (Read 871 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline masek77

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 109
Military brass?
« on: May 20, 2007, 03:56:21 AM »
What problems does military brass present to the reloader?

Is military brass inherently better than civilian brass for general use? By general use I mean non competitive shooting...

Aren't the cases thicker and does that allow for more reloads before case failure?

Offline stimpylu32

  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (67)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6062
  • Gender: Male
Re: Military brass?
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2007, 04:50:41 AM »
masek77

Mil brass will tend to be thicker and have less case cap. so it will hold less powder . also it will have a crimped in primer so the crimp will have to be removed before the new primers can be installed .

I have shot up tons of Mil. brass over the years but for all the work involved it just makes more sence to go with Com. brass and save all the extra hassle .

stimpy
Deceased June 17, 2015


:D If i can,t stop it with 6 it can,t be stopped

Offline The Sodbuster

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 387
Re: Military brass?
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2007, 08:44:54 AM »
Quote
Mil brass will tend to be thicker and have less case cap. so it will hold less powder

Masek77: You will find this is not the case with .223 Remington (5.56 NATO) brass.  Weight wise, it's lighter than some commercial brass (Remington & Sellier & Beloit come to mind as being heavier brass).

Offline nomosendero

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5760
  • Gender: Male
Re: Military brass?
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2007, 09:03:01 AM »
Yes, the thicker Mil. brass is much more the case with the 308 than the 223. You can see as much as 2gr. less cap. with 308 Mil.
Here is a great 308 article, the best I have seen & it goes into detail concerning the brass:  http://www.6mmbr.com/308win.html

I have heard of old mil. 223 brass being this way, but I have to agree with Sodbuster, the 223 Mil. brass that you are likely to find these days can actually be thinner. The Mil. is trying to get all of the vel. they can with the heavier bullets they now use. In fact, LC 06
brass has the most cap, as shown on 6mmbr.com. Again, they have a great 223 article & they show case capacities here:
http://www.6mmbr.com/223rem.html

I agree with Stimpy that case prep can be a hassle if you aren't already set up for it with a Dillon tool for example. But you can buy Mil brass that has been case prepped, sometimes still at a better deal.
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

Offline jhalcott

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1869
Re: Military brass?
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2007, 09:40:26 AM »
  I just got 100 Norma .223 cases .They weigh 102 to 103.4 grains brand new. A bunch of older Military once fired brass weighs about 97 grains (96 to 98+) I have not fired any of the norma yet but it takes 1/2 grain less powder to fill the case!

Offline Old Syko

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2263
  • Gender: Male
Re: Military brass?
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2007, 03:14:35 PM »
As far as .223 brass goes, it seems to run about 12 to 15 bucks or so for a box of 20 rounds of commercial virgin brass that's ready to go.  I just bought 10,000 single fired LC rounds for $40 per thousand.  For the difference I don't mind investing the time to process it.

One other thing about military brass that no one has mentioned yet is that most all of it already has the necks heat treated which adds a lot the number of loadings you can get.

Offline beemanbeme

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2587
Re: Military brass?
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2007, 03:21:45 PM »
What is all this "hassle" you folks are having prepping milsup brass??  I have a little primer pocket uniformer that reams out the milsup crimp.  I get a big bowl of brass, my little thingie and remove the crimp whilst I'm watching TV.  Once the crimp is gone, I treat it like any other brass.  So what's the hassle already??  :D

Offline 351 power

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 794
  • Gender: Male
Re: Military brass?
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2007, 03:32:28 AM »
beemanbeme, who makes this tool you speak of and where can i order one? i just got my first press and dies set up. i resized some American eagle shells. i tried to take off the crimp with a lee chamfer tool but all i get is a nice beveled pocket. will the whole crimp pop out looking like a small shim? that is what i kind of see in my confused head.
every day is a gift. use it well

colour is a symbol of where you are from and not of who you are

Offline Old Syko

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2263
  • Gender: Male
Re: Military brass?
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2007, 05:13:27 AM »
351 one of the hand primer pocket reamers you'll see herehttp://www.midwayusa.com/ebrowse.exe/browse?TabID=1&Categoryid=8937&categorystring=9315***731***695*** is the "thingy" being referred to I'm sure.  But if you scan farther down the given page you'll see an RCBS pocket swager combo that is a better choice if you're doing any volume and still don't want to spend a fortune. 

Most folks prefer swageing as opposed to reaming as reaming removes material that swageing merely forces back into its proper position.

Online Graybeard

  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (69)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26944
  • Gender: Male
Re: Military brass?
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2007, 05:38:32 AM »
My experience with military brass is mostly limited to the .223 and I've NOT found it to be lighter than or even as light as commercial brass. I've used some mixed lots of headstamps but have dealt mostly with Lake City brass and LC92 and LC88 are what I have the largest quantities of. It is definitely heavier than commercial brass from any source I've found and loads in it must be reduced a full grain from commercial brass.

It's usually not difficult to find it already deprimed and the primer pockets cleaned/reamed and ready to use. Midway USA used to carry it all the time like that. I bought a bucket of 2500 from them years ago that is the main source of my LC brass.


Bill aka the Graybeard
President, Graybeard Outdoor Enterprises
256-435-1125

I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline nomosendero

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5760
  • Gender: Male
Re: Military brass?
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2007, 05:56:54 AM »
I have some old Vietnam era LC that is heavy, that is why I made the distinction between old & newer, like the LC06, which is lighter.
The 2 charts that I referred to before went to alot more trouble than most use us will or can to get the weights & case capacities.     http://www.6mmbr.com/223rem.html

This chart does not show the older, heavier Mil. brass.
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

Offline beemanbeme

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2587
Re: Military brass?
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2007, 09:18:02 AM »
My items are the Hornady # 253550 and 617234 reamers. Along with little wooden handles that they screw into.  Mine came in a box of extra "stuff" that a fellow threw in when I bought a used RCBS Jr press from him around 45 years ago.  The press and the thingies are still going strong. (a lot stronger than me :D )
Believe it or not, some of the oooooold reloading books suggested that you take the point of your knife and trim the crimp out.  I don't see why that wouldn't work. 

Offline alsaqr

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1270
Re: Military brass?
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2007, 03:04:08 AM »
i weigh all my cases when i'm after good accuracy and then segregate them by weight.   Have weighed 5.56mm cases back to 1964 and have not found any of them to be consistently heavier than any brand of commercial cases.  The worst gun that i have ever to re-loaded for is a Handi Rifle in .223.  For that reason it will soon go away. 

Here is a chart from AR-15 barrels. 

Link:   http://www.ar15barrels.com/tech.shtml

                                          

Offline SneakyPete

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Re: Military brass?
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2007, 01:09:54 PM »
Thanks for the link alsaqr.

All I use is LC brass bought back when it was cheaper, like beemanbeme said clean out the pockets while watching TV. I use a case mouth chamfering tool for that. Otherwise I treat it the same as any other brass. A lot of people complain about military brass but if you have a TV it's no big deal.

Offline iiranger

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 491
Re: Military brass?
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2007, 05:46:35 AM »
#1). What problem does military brass present to the reloader. a). If "match brass" --none. Same as commercial.  b). If "regular issue" then the primer is crimped to prevent backing out in a full auto and possibly jamming things up.

You can remove the crimp is several ways. For just a few, a pocket knife blade does fine. Once around leaves a bevel and takes out the brass squeezed over the primer. If weighing cases is important to you, many, many firms make a "swage" tool that will force the brass back without removing any and leave the bevel for the next primer. RCBS works within the press opening. I think it is CH (ch4d.com) that works above the press. As suggested, many just use the case mouth chamfer tool. Works good, but my fingers get tired after the first couple hundred. AND last, there is a "counter sink" for the flat head screws with the underside of the head tapered... chuck one of those into a drill, electric screwdriver, etc. and touch it to the pocket and the work is DONE. Sorry, I am not a carpenter and don't remember the exact numbers. I am sure the hardware stores will have a chart. Probably need 2, one for large, another for small.

#2). Many, many years ago, I think it was C. Audet, but it was a top competitive shooter with lots of machinist tools, did an evaluation of military brass, range run issue; military "match" brass; and "commercial brass." Article was printed in Am. Rifleman as I recall. His measurements found no appreciable difference between "commercial" and "military match" brass. I think he worked with .308 (sorry, 7.62 x 51 NATO), and .30/'06, very limited. Soldier issue brass was not nearly as precise. Much, much more "sloppy." I suppose it can be sorted, but more work. No big deal if you don't mind OR  really want the savings.

b). Had a friend trained as a "gunner" / aircraft during WW II. Point he made to me, retired gunsmith too, the full auto barrel is not pointed at the same place each time a bullet leaves. Gunners are trained to think as if shooting "shotgun",  i.e. "pattern." In brief, since the bullets will not be going into one hole, they don't worry about "precision." In fact, he suggested, the sloppy cases might contribute to this distribution...

#3). Is military brass better? Well. I had a cousin, decades ago, who lived near a military firing range. If the military was going to use it, the MP's came in and chased everyone out and set up road blocks. . Otherwise it was a "park" for the local population. Fired brass, fired bullets, etc. were left lay. His father filled his pocket with once fired .30/'06 and had a life time supply for his deer hunting. He had a kids collection of fired brass, bullets, bullet parts, etc. Boy was I jealous.
O.K. IF THE BRASS IS FREE...

Otherwise, if you have to pay... Your call. I don't mind in the least banging away at p'dogs with mil. surplus that might not be "match" accurate. If I have to shoot again, I shoot again. Helpful little furballs, at range, will look in the direction where the bullet passed by... But you pay, you call. LUCK.