Swaging non-jacketed bullets

[Cat Whisperer]

I realize this is out of the mainstream (for both this forum and in general) but y'all have humored me before (discussions about BC of cast bullets - which applied in a broader sense).

I am interested in casting a basic bullet (say for purposes of discussion a standard .30 caliber) and then swaging (as opposed to sizing) to particular diameters.

So I'm looking for expertise in the design and manufacture of swaging dies,  coupled with expertise in swaging lead-alloy bullets.

I've read up on the Corbins but will be building my own dies/presses and so forth.

I'm interested in determining the accuracy of bullets of a range of diameters compared to groove and bore diameters AND researching the forms and sizes of lubrication methods.

This means that I want to build a series of swaging dies that will vary in about .001" increments, to modify existing cast bullets (or lead wire) to a range of diameters for testing.

Now the questions.

Are there examples of swaging dies that are commonly available for lead-alloy bullets that do NOT use gas-checks or half-jackets?

Is there anyone out there that has some expertise or is knowledgeable of the process?

[Paladin56]

Well, I’m no mental giant, but it sounds like you’re going to do nothing more than cast cores, then swaging to whatever diameter. I know you want to make your own dies and press, and I know Corbin makes such dies for use with pure lead, but you won’t get lube grooves with his or any others that I’m aware of. The H dies should be strong enough to swage alloys to a point, if you have a large/strong enough press and you stay at 30 caliber, so if you make yours of like size, material and heat treating, they should work.

You might want to think about having a mold cut oversized to cast a larger diameter, then use progressively smaller sizing dies to draw down instead of swaging up to whatever diameter you need. That way you’ll still have lube grooves to do your lube testing with, though maybe not as deep unless you have the grooves cut deeper as well.

If you aren’t interested in changing the point (nose) or base style, what is the point in going to all that trouble? If you have to use enough pressure to form a point, the lube grooves will be swaged out to the die wall making a slick bullet, or at least very reduced lube grooves.

Send Dave an email after the end of the month (he’s out on a family emergency). He’s very good about letting you know what will work and what may not. He’ll probably tell you what you need to know about building the dies as well. Better yet, get his books first, and they will probably answer any questions you may have.

If I haven’t understood exactly what you are trying to accomplish, this probably didn’t help much, but I’ve never tried to swage a bullet without a jacket, though I don’t see a reason it can’t be done. It’s no different than swaging the cores I use for my bullets, except the core die has bleed holes so the weight stays the same, leaves slick sides, and doesn’t form a point.

I’ll give it a go in a couple of weeks to see how it works.
.

David

[Paladin56]

BTW, I failed to mention that if you make a nose punch that matches the nose of your cast bullet, I don’t believe you’ll have to contend with as much pressure as you would if forming the nose since it’s already in the desired shape. At this point, you will be shortening the bullet as it expands to fill the die at the expense of the lube grooves, which will become smaller with each increase in diameter. At some point while increasing the diameter, or if enough pressure is applied, the lube grooves will disappear altogether.

David

[iiranger]

I have seen an alternative, allegedly from the days of black powder competition, called "pound dies." The die/set was literally used with a mallet and pieces of soft lead. Today, I suspect you'd be happier making the dies to go into a press, but the principles should be along the lines you seem to be looking for. Might hunt up the writings of Harvey Donaldson, who claims he got started in Schuetzen with a black powder load the bullet from the muzzle cartridge gun... Long before my time... Wolf Publishing, AZ, had a book of his columns. I suspect that much of this has been tried, usually the case, but you have to find the data... LUCK.

[Cat Whisperer]

What am I trying to accomplish?  I guess ACCURACY.  We talk in terms of thousandths of an inch in casting bullets, but in tenths when talking about swaging jacketed bullets.

I can cast bullets that will weigh +- a few tenths of a grain in a good casting session.  I have CONTROL over the alloy. 

BUT to change one feature, a whole new mould has to be made.  When swaging, a new nose punch can be easily made and tried - or modified (I have a lathe and a mill).

I just finished a crude die with a flat base and wadcutter nose punch in .375 diameter.  Tossed in a .357 cast bullet and put it in the vice.  Took a little more pressure than I'd expected, but the lube grooves were there (greatly reduced) and the nose was nicely formed to match the punch, and the gas-check shank filled out almost completely to a flat base.  Looks like an over grown .38spcl wadcutter (in .375 diameter).

Several experiments to do in the future - variations on a theme I guess.

Thanks for sharing the term 'pound die' - it's likely right much similar to what I made.

[Cat Whisperer]

Two different bullets (cast) that I tried.

First pix is of the die and top punch, second is of the bullets.

Bullets on right are a Lee 375 diameter swaged to 375 -  note where there was a little lube in the grooves it has not compressed.

Bullets on left are a group-buy GC bullet started out at .357 and swaged up to .375 - one with the gas check!

Need to work on a dedicated press with lots of leverage - 5" vice is slow.

[iiranger]

On reflection, my memory thins with my hair, I may have read that on "Pound Dies"  article in a Gun Digest Annual. Which one I could not say. I have been given some older ones. Both corbins, Dave (swage.com) and Richard (rceco.com) work with bullet making for the paper patched and guns of that era and might recognize the term. again, luck.

[JBMauser]

I swag lead pills with no jackets with my Swag-O-Matic.  I paper patch them up for my old rolling block.   I have read a good article posted in the on line book that shows how you can swag up CBs and keep the lube grooves if you fill them first.  (who would have thought).  Now how to get to the book.  I had to join the CB-Book group in Yahoo and then look at their files section.  Swag o dies can be made and might be an option for you.  JB

[Rickk]

Hey Cat Whisperer...

I use a corbin press to make 357 and 44 handgun bullets. One of my favorite designs starts off with a 320 grain cast bullet, complete with lube groves. Sometimes I put a gas check on them ... sometimes I don't.

I lube them and then swage them to reform them into this massive hollow point that I used for bowling pin shooting. The end result is a straight cylinder on the outside, with a hollow point that you can park a VW beatle on the inside. I grabs bowling pins no matter how crappy the hit is, and it is heavy enough to take them down every time, even with loads that are considered light for even a 44 special.

The lubed groves remain after swaging.

Rick

[Cat Whisperer]

Rick -

Indeed a small world.  (This weekend Tracey and Mike mentioned enjoying shooting with you earlier.)

What do you use for dies?  Any pix that would help me make my own?

[Cat Whisperer]

JB -  Thanks for the info on the swage-0-matic.  I've seen a few on eBay from time to time.

Might be that I could start with a basic s-0-m die and make alternate punches.  What do you think?

(If I recall you're somewhere between Roanoke and Smith Mt Lake, I'm in Pulaski.  Again, small world.)

[Rickk]

My dies are Corbin LSWC-1 style



I forgot to mention that I lube and size the bullets before swaging. Since the grooves are filled with lube, the lead can not fill in the grooves, so they stay intact. I size them .001 undersize so that they will fit into the swage die.

Yup, I had a ball on the 4th when Tracy and Mike visited. 

Rick

[Cat Whisperer]

Rickk -

THANKS!  The drawing gives me all I need to know to make mine.  ( I am waiting for a swag-o-matic on an ebay purchase to get here too).

I assume the vent holes on the sides are right much small?

I assume also that the punch on the left is the nose punch and may have a cavity?

[Rickk]

You can call either side what you wish. Hollow base, hollow point... whichever way works best is "this side up"/

The holes are relatively small. I can measure some extruded stuff for ya ... right now I am going by memory and thinking about 25 thousandths. If they are too small, your effort will got up. If there is not some lead extruded each time then there will not doubt be a few air pockets left in the core.

Wall smoothness is extremely important if you want to get the core out after you are done swaging.

[Lead pot]

CW.
I do it to change the ogive or bases and rounding bullets from a production moulds that are out of round.
This started when I had a Sharps with a free bore chamber that had a problem shooting a bullet with the bore riding step that had to be set out with just the base band in the case where I got gas cuts and pore accuracy.
I had a die cut at .459 with a 1-S nose and reshaped the ogive and took out the bore riding step so I could seat the bullet with the GG in the case.
Well you would say that it would push the GG together, well it will but you can hold the GG as they are by first lubing that bullet then run it through the die to reswage the nose.
The lube in the grooves will hold the grooves from being pushed together.
This also will work for changing the base like swagging a boat tail or rebated boat tail or reducing the bullet weight a Little by allowing the lead to bleed off through the ejection pin hole.
If you are one that likes to make things make a die that works like a collet with three or four fingers and make a GG swage die.
This is not hard to make I had some for pistol bullets that worked good and there is no reason that they wont work for a rifle bullet.
Just run the collet in till it is closed and then cut the collet like you would cut a mould.
I don't know why the Corbins don't offer one they where made in the past for the old swage presses I had in my younger days.

Kurt

[Cat Whisperer]

Kurt, Rick -

Lots to consider - some new ideas even - right now I'm preping for a single shot rifle match and then it's back to renovating the master bathroom.   Then I'll get back to this.  I did pick up a .357 swaging die for 7/8-14 and have been playing with it.

[WILDCATT]

I have two c & h swedging tools.I cast 357 wad cutters and lubed then put them in swedge a matic.came out good.what I was doing was compressing the bullets to fill them out.[square corners].get the swedge a matic and save the sweat.for a press for making bullets {advanced gunsmithing by W.F. VICKERY has a design that I had and still have parts as I lost the press in moving.my press used 22 rim fire empty cases to make jackets.