.22 Mag for carry

[scout34]

How does the .22 Mag stack up as a personal defense cartridge?  Looking at foot pounds of energy, it stacks up pretty close to .38 loads.  I know that bullet diameter has a big role to play, and generally speaking I don't really on bullet speed versus mass to get the job done (like .308 vs .223) but my interest has been piqued.  Wanted some opinions and personal experience if anyone has any.

[KN]

I tend to go with the big and slow crowd on this one. 22's don't interest me at all in defensive terms.   KN

[sherpa]

better than a sharp stick

[Mikey]

I would consider another caliber.  I like the 22 mag and have played with it but have only used it once.  While it worked and was effective it did not appear to be much better than a standard 22lr from the short barrelled gun I used (High Standard derringer).  In short barrels the 22 mag has a lot of bark.........bite is questionable. 

Most 22 mag velocities and data are taken from longer barrelled rifles and short barrels do not give the same ballistics. 

While it may be effective at close ranges I would not depend on it.  In the bigger revolver shown the cartridge is a good camp cartridge and small game getter but I would prefer something larger for personal defense. 

If you conduct some penetration tests you may find it not the performer you thought, although you may.  The soft nosed slugs available today may not expand at the velocities from the snubbies and in that regard it is little better than the 22 lr.  JMTCW.  Mikey.

[scout34]

Yeah, I'm going to stick with the "Big Bullet, Big Hole" approach.  Every once in a while though, I get that little tickle in the back of my head that says, "Why not try this?"  I'll stick with wadcutters for small game.

[coyotejoe]

I've seen velocities near 1700 fps for the 30 grain bullets and near 1500 for the 40 grain slugs from the 6" barrel of an AMT Automag. That shows energies of around 180 ft.lb. and while I consider it as a small game gun I would not feel unarmed while packing it. However, as others have mentioned, the velocity and energy would be considerably lower from a short barreled revolver. I really don't see any use for the little snubby revolvers in .22 mag and even less for the .17 HMR snubbies.

[The Gamemaster]

Back in the 70's, my Uncle was into Nascar racing and a buddy of his went with him to a race at Richmond Speedway.

Back then - they were all day races - because they did not have lights like they do today.

It was hot outside and all there was to do was drink beer and get sunburned.

If you ever been to Richmond in the middle of the summer, you would know that it is about 90* in the morning when you wake up.  About 100* by lunchtime and 109 - 114* by supper time.

Well these two rednecks got into a fight over which manufacturer made the best car.

One man thought that it was FORD and the other thought that it was CHEVY.

Someone threw a punch and the fight was on.

Actually it was too hot outside to fight, so one man took out his .22 revolver and shot the other man in the chest 2 times.  That guy took the .22 off the first man and shot him in the head 3 times.

They both lived.

A .22 might be good for killing a rabbit or a squirrel in your backyard.  But as a personal defense weapon - it isn't a very good choice.

What I read in magazines was that the police switched from .38 Specials and .45 ACP's to 9 mm's was to protect themselves from people on cocaine.  Because they did not feel a lot of pain with the 38 special's and would continue to attact a person - even after being shot.

The 38's lacked penetration and the 45's lacked power and range.

[canon6]

The 22 mag in a rifle is a very effective round, in a handgun not so much.Various studies have shown that the 22 Mag does not penetrate enough and usually does not expend.I have carried a HighStandard over under  derringer in the past.At the time that was what I could afford ,you can get a 32ACP/380 or a small 9mm that is not much bigger/heavier. my2c    Doug

[coyotejoe]

Yep, years ago I met a cop who carried a High Standard derringer as his back-up gun. I ventured the opinion that it was a pretty lame cartridge but he insisted "oh no, it has as much energy as a .38 special". I wondered how anyone could just look at the two cartridges and believe the little one was as good as the big one.  Energy of some loads from a rifle may indeed equal some .38 loads from a revolver but from that derringer I doubt he'd get much over 1000fps and less than 100 ft.lb.

[Awf Hand]

"What I read in magazines was that the police switched from .38 Specials and .45 ACP's to 9 mm's was to protect themselves from people on cocaine.  Because they did not feel a lot of pain with the 38 special's and would continue to attact a person - even after being shot.

The 38's lacked penetration and the 45's lacked power and range"



-They switched from 45's to 9mm's and gained power?


I've found the carry-size rimfire semi-autos to be less than perfect in reliability.  The revolvers lose a lot of power when the bullet "jumps the gap".  The mag is a rifle cartridge.

[Dee]

Awf Hand, the guys that wrote those magazine articles must have been using the cocaine. 9mm has the WORST ONE SHOT STOPPING RECORD in law enforcement history. The best by the way was back in the 70s, and STILL IS the 125gr, jacketed hollow point in 357 magnum. No, not the 357 Sig, it is nothing more than a souped up 9mm. These statistics come from FBI officer involved shoot data collected from all over the U.S.
The 9mm should have never been used other than what it was designed for. A German sub-machine gun round.
When picking a caliber for personal defense, one first must ask one's self how much one's life is worth before we enter the store to make the purchase.
Big has always been better, and it has been proven over and over.

[jkir]

I give the 22 mag good marks because its fits the First Rule Of A Gun Fight---bring a gun!

I will occasionally carry my 25acp due to clothing/concelamentt issues. It isn;t my first choice, but with a few high potency rounds, it is certainly better than nothing.

[coyotejoe]

Awf Hand, the guys that wrote those magazine articles must have been using the cocaine. 9mm has the WORST ONE SHOT STOPPING RECORD in law enforcement history. The best by the way was back in the 70s, and STILL IS the 125gr, jacketed hollow point in 357 magnum. No, not the 357 Sig, it is nothing more than a souped up 9mm. These statistics come from FBI officer involved shoot data collected from all over the U.S.
The 9mm should have never been used other than what it was designed for. A German sub-machine gun round.
When picking a caliber for personal defense, one first must ask one's self how much one's life is worth before we enter the store to make the purchase.
Big has always been better, and it has been proven over and over.

Interesting Dee, I think the main reason the 9mm got a bad name with cops is because of the belief that "heavier must be better" so they went with the 147 grain bullets, that just makes the 9mm into a semi auto .38 special.
  That "top stop" load of the 125 grain .357 mag is listed in some ammo catalogs as high as 1500 fps, but actual speeds from 4" revolvers run more like 1250-1350 fps, or about the same as a 115 grain 9mm. Does anyone really believe that a difference of 10 grains in bullet weight will drop a round from the top of the list to the bottom?  And the .357 Sig runs a 125 grain bullet to 1370 fps, actually better than the real-world ballistics for a 4" .357 mag revolver. That's not to say it's better but I sure don't see why it wouldn't be just as good.
  Most cops just carry a gun because it is required for the job and they really aren't very knowledgeable about firearms. If someone expects results like they see in movies, where the guy is slammed back against the wall or blown out the window by bullet impacts, well of course they will be disappointed in any handgun or even a shotgun. The fact is that one round doesn't always do it, whether from a .38, a 9mm or a .45 but they all will get it done and choosing the best available load will improve results with any caliber.
  And, by the by, the 9mm was designed and used as a pistol cartridge a quarter of a century before being adopted for burp guns.

[Dee]

Weeelllllll coyotejoe, I carried a gun for 20 years as a police officer. Weapons instructer 19 years for dept. ran SWAT team for 5 years of the 20, and Tactical K-9 for 13. While SOME cops just carry because it is necessary, many are VERY knowledgeable, in function and use. No all are not ballistic experts, but they have researchers, that using DEPENDABLE and ACCURATE data, from a RELIABLE SOURCE, from ACTUAL shoot situations involving officers, to inform them on best caliber, load ect. However, many dept. heads ignore the data, to satiisfy their own beliefs, real or imagined, as do some citiziens.
Your ill concieved notion that the 9mm got a bad name with cops because of the belief "that heavier must be better" which caused them to go with the 147 grainer is completely the opposite of true. The 147 grainer was CONCIEVED trying to improve a bad stopping record that the 9mm earned on it's own, and it (the 147 grainer) does not make it into a semi auto 38 special. It makes it into a 9mm shooting a slower 147 grain bullet.
What you mistake for load preference is acutually about ENERGY DISPLACEMENT. The 357Sig may or may not "RUN" a 125 grainer faster than the same bullet weight in 357 mag, regardless of barrel length however, the "ENERGY DISPLACEMENT" will not be the same, BECAUSE OF "CALIBER" and "BULLET CONFIGURATION" which DICTATES "ENERGY DISPLACEMENT".
I started watching FBI stats on one shot stops back in the early 70s when the 9mm wasn't yet popular, and the revolver was still king. As the 9mm and others began to enter into the fray more, I noticed the stats did not change on caliber, or bullet weight and configuration. Everyone else noticed also, and an effort to pump up the 9mm poor record, in order to salvage all those 9mms caused the conception of the 147 grainer. The Illinois highway patrol and others had invested much in this new police caliber, and where not pleased with it's performance reports coming from the field. Also working in CID and Narcotics I had the opportunity, or mis-fortune however you prefer to look at it, to see many gun shot wounds with numerous caliburs and gauges. I once worked three fatal  shootings in one 14 hour period.
So it really doesn't matter whether anyone "believes" anything. It only matters whether the stats are accurate or not. Some people will stand soaking wet in driving rain, and swear it's dry, if it doesn't fit their own imagined idea of how something should be.
I have personal experience of the difference in "reality and tv", but then again I have personal experience of the difference in what something really is, and what someone whom has no experience thinks it is, because of what they have read, or thought they knew. They are seldom the same.
The obvious fact remains regardless of denial by some, is that the 125 grain hollow point out of the 357 magnum HAS the best one shot STOPPING record in L.E. forcement and has for years. It is obviously the best KNOWN compromise for weight, penatration, and hopefully expansion along with ENERGY DISPLACEMENT. Better than the 44mag. ,45acp, 38 special and the 9mm. Also fact is ANY caliber DEPENDANT on expansion is set up to fail, as something as simple as clothing can plug the hollowpoint there-by voiding the hydrolic design of the bullet. These facts did not come out of a gun rag selling bullets and guns, or my head. They came from actual stats.

[Awf Hand]

Hey Dee,  not trying to be a smart guy or anything, but are you saying there is a substantial difference between two bullets weighing the same (125gr) traveling the same velocity but only different by 0.002" in diameter?

Again, not trying to be a smart guy.  I just don't understand.


It sounds like you have a lot of experience over a broad time-span.  Does the data show some evidence of better shot placement with the guys who know they only have 6 shots and a bit more awkward reload versus those guys who know they have 10 or 15 and extra magazines they can just pop in?  Could this explain some of the "advantage" of the 357mag vs others?

Sorry if I hijacked the thread.  We can start a new one if needed.

[Dee]

Here is an example. A 9mm because of a slightly smaller caliber, and because of BULLET CONFIGURATION in ball ammo would penetrate a vest, where a heavier bullet in 357 mag would not.
Also a 22 long rifle out of a rifle at close range would also penetrate the same vest, where a 44 magnum would not.
One other example is an ice pick, would penetrate the same vest, where a rail road spike would not.
The reason for success, and failure on all three examples are the same. THE AREA OF ENERGY DISPLACED, i.e. CONFIGURATION.
SAME AMOUNT OF ENERGY, BUT DISPLACED IN A "SMALLER AREA".
It's just that simple.
Pumping up the 9mm round by puting it in a 40 caliber casing necked down and calling it the 357Sig, did not turn it into a 357 magnun. It is simple a FASTER 9mm, that is TOTALLY dependant on the hollowpoint performing. Penetration with 9mm ball was never a problem, it will penetrate because of BULLET CONFIGURATAION. It will however, NOT perform well if the hollowpoint doesn't open.
Simple fact. One is dependant on hydrolics.

[Dee]

Let's do go back to the 22mag for carry. I am going to relate my own experience in what I actually saw, what doctor's reports revealed at hospitals as well as forensic, if the wound ended up being fatal.
I have only info and experience concerning the 22 long rifle but believe the experience would be very simular.
Where a gunshot to the limbs (leg or arm) was the injury, it was minimal unless hitting a major artery or vein or nerve. Tissue damage was not to say minor but was not usually of any comparison to a larger caiber. 
Intestional area, was obvious puncture.
Chest cavity is where it starts getting interesting. If the bullet had enough energy to enter the chest cavity (and many times it did not) it seldom had enough to exit. I personally have no recollection of such an exit, but what did many times happen, was the bullet would bounce of of bones many times changeing direction and causing damage on not a large scale as far as tissue damage itself, but damage to major arteries, lungs, and the heart.
Head shots were the same. Many glanced off, but those that entered did not have enough energy to exit, but opted to richochet around inside the head, doing much damage, in a small path.
With that said, I would feel no less armed with a 22 mag, than with a 25 acp. But as Col. Cooper put it best; Being armed with a 25acp, gives a man the security of knowing that he IS armed, and the discomfort of knowing that if he shoots someone with it, it is going to make that person mad.

[Dee]

Hey Dee,  not trying to be a smart guy or anything, but are you saying there is a substantial difference between two bullets weighing the same (125gr) traveling the same velocity but only different by 0.002" in diameter?

Again, not trying to be a smart guy.  I just don't understand.


It sounds like you have a lot of experience over a broad time-span.  Does the data show some evidence of better shot placement with the guys who know they only have 6 shots and a bit more awkward reload versus those guys who know they have 10 or 15 and extra magazines they can just pop in?  Could this explain some of the "advantage" of the 357mag vs others?

Sorry if I hijacked the thread.  We can start a new one if needed.

Shot placement is always critical. Example. 9mm will usually rickochet off of a major bone unless hit square on. Where a flat point in 40 or 45 caliber will bite into the bone, and break or shatter it.
If a determined opponent is hit with the former (9mm), and the bone turns the bullet, he may or may not go down. If he is hit with the latter, with the described results, his determination will not matter, the broken or shattered bone, if in the leg, hip, or spine area will cause him to go down.
Both of these scenarios are given using the major bone areas described.
I would not consider anything smaller than 9mm (and given past experience do not personally endorse the 9mm) for self defense, and if a smaller firearm is necessary or desired, would look into the derringer family, in major caliber. In other words 38 (357) or better.JMHO

[coyotejoe]

Thank you Dee, we all do appreciate your real world experience. I'm a revolver fan because I'm a handloader and experimenter and I appreciate the fact that a revolver will fire anything I stuff into it, it doesn't have to "feed" a bullet, it's already been fed. I wonder if you have any insight as to how full wadcutter bullets behave in a shooting? I recall the days when most cops were using .38 roundnose lead bullets for duty ammo and shooting wadcutters for practice. I often thought they might better use the wadcutters for duty.

[jhm]

The switch was because of the lessening of the STANDARDS for being a law enforcement officer, many couldnt handle the recoil of the larger calibers, so as not to have to tell some of the requits that they didnt qualify they switched the calibers to allow them to become police.  JIM

[Dee]

The switch was because of the lessening of the STANDARDS for being a law enforcement officer, many couldnt handle the recoil of the larger calibers, so as not to have to tell some of the requits that they didnt qualify they switched the calibers to allow them to become police.  JIM

HUH!! Boy, that's some really "out there" info.
I hate to break it to you but the standards have been raised by almost everyone nationwide over the years. Just before I started in the early 70s there were officers  with out even a GED. Some were still around when I got into the business. Now, college is desired in most all depts. of any size and REQUIRED by many depts.
I was in charge of the research for a dept going to automatics and it was quickly apparent that an officer with an automatic pistol NEEDED more training by more HOURS spent in that training and more AMMUNITION FIRED in that training, than one with a revolver.
A revolver is a very forgiving weapon. If you don't pull the trigger, it won't shoot. An automatic even to a veteran when under stress can be quite UNFORGIVING. Especially after a shooting.
The move was to gain an IMAGINED need for firepower, as the badguys were switching to high capacity automatics SUPPOSEDLY, and would have us outgunned, however no one could produce any data to back this claim up. After working mexican gangs for 13 years I can tell you first had the badguys need the firepower, because they are inherently worse shots than most police.
In my opinion the move was unnecessary and gave many officers a false sense of security, with the added rounds in the pistol, especially switching to an enferior round.

[Dee]

Thank you Dee, we all do appreciate your real world experience. I'm a revolver fan because I'm a handloader and experimenter and I appreciate the fact that a revolver will fire anything I stuff into it, it doesn't have to "feed" a bullet, it's already been fed. I wonder if you have any insight as to how full wadcutter bullets behave in a shooting? I recall the days when most cops were using .38 roundnose lead bullets for duty ammo and shooting wadcutters for practice. I often thought they might better use the wadcutters for duty.

In the old days we did experience with the wadcutter, by even inverting the bullet to see how it shot. Kills on rabbits and such were spectacular to say the least with the hollowbase wadcutters, but penetration was a problem. As far as the FBI stats I gave, these have been kept since the 60s and are today, and for the most part have not changed. I believe the reason that is the 125 grain jacketed hollowpoint has the best stopping record is the the balance it has between, expansion, velocity, and penetration. Even if the hollowpoint fails to perform the soft point combined with the velocity will mushroom somewhat anyway, and the power that the 357 mag generates on the blunt surface of the bullet creates a good amount of trama over lesser rounds as the 9mm. I know this upsets the 9mm crowd however, I am not selling guns, or ammo and these stats speak for themselves. A new breed of bullet has came out on the market by manufacturers and the fact is these bullets, as are all others are hollowpoints that are dependant on the technology WORKING, and sometimes it does not. The advantages of the 357 magnum load described is not entirely DEPENDENT on that technology necessarily working.
I have carried virtually every Smith revolver and automatic pistol made for L.E. and Colt also. My favorite in looks was always the 4" Python, but after carrying two on duty I found the long stacking trigger pull a disadvantage even after an action job. I have always been grateful that the first shooting I was in I was carrying a Smith that I had personally tuned, and the second shooting, a lightweight Colt Commander I had personally rebuilt.

Also take note that the Army has even learned their lesson with the 9mm pistols and after spending millions on the switch, are switching back to major caliber.

As far as shooting reloads, I have been reloading pistol ammo since about 1970, and do not fear shooting them in an auto as far as the reliability issue goes. I carry and have for years, a 1911, and this one I did not build. I do however, believe that one of the finest police duty weapons ever built was, AND STILL IS the Model 19 Combat Magnum 4" barrel that Bill Jordan talked Smith and Wesson into puting on the K frame, with the L frame 686 4" a close second. If someone were to take my 1911 away and hand me either of these weapons I would feel armed well enough to accomplish anything that I could have with the 1911. After all, if it is not over within 2 to 4 rounds, you have either lost the fight, or need to realize you tactics are not working, and you should RE-GROUP.

[Savage]

Dee,
Howdy from an old recently retired LEO! Funny how similar our backgrounds are. While I agree with a lot of things you say, I have to disagree with the .357 mag/.357 Sig issue. I propose that two bullets of the same weight and design, with identical SD and BC, traveling at the same MV, generating the same ME will have identical wound patterns in the same test medium. (Gut or Gel) I don't believe anyone can make a valid argument that .002 dia., less than 1%, can make any realworld difference in the two. I still own my first issue mdl 19, and a couple of others I aquired thru the years. I frequently shoot centerfire plates with a 686. For what it's worth, I don't own a .357 Sig.
Savage

[SHOOTALL]

Dee with your permission , the sig round has a different shape which seems less  destructive than the flat , exposed lead hp 357 mag cart. ! IMHO !

[Dee]

Dee with your permission , the sig round has a different shape which seems less  destructive than the flat , exposed lead hp 357 mag cart. ! IMHO !

Shootall, that is exactly the issue. While the stats on the 357Sig appear to match in every catagory they do not. Bullet weight, and bullet velocity are NOT the issue, by itself. Bullet DESIGN in the area of SHAPE "ARE" the issue. The 357 magnum displaces energy over a wider area of the bullet than the 9mm. This has been proven time and time again, with the barrage of media hype generated by the ammo companies, and arms manufacturing clouding the issue. Velocity and weight do not make a 9mm into a 357 Mag. The 357 magnum is the best combo of both world's in the fact that it has the power of penetration, the velocity advantage for the effect of trama, and the hollow point for the POSSIBILITY of expansion. BUT! it also has the larger area on the nose of the bullet to displace all this energy on a LARGER area of the target. Like it or not, the 357 Sig is NOTHING MORE than a faster 9mm. No more, no less. The 9mm bullet loaded in the 357Sig hollow point is TOTALLY dependant on hydrolics to open up. This is a simple fluid displacement issue that has been defeated MANY times simply by clothing the shootee was wearing at the time. The TITLE 357 Sig is a name only. Bullet diameter is still .355" which makes for a smaller nose area, than the 357-358 diameter of the 357 magnum. What one wishes or believes something is, is not always what it is in reality.

[Ratltrap]

I've read that the 22 WMR is one of the few handgun rounds that will penetrtate Class II body armor.

Here is what another former LEO and experienced gunhand (Paco Kelly) has written about the 22 WMR in the self defense role:

"I carried RWS (Dynamit-Nobel) European .22 WMR ammo for self-defense when I carried the little AutoMag II off-duty or in the woods and such. It left the barrel of my six-inch gun at an amazing (for then) 1550 fps and 213 pounds of muzzle punch. One day an idiot pulled a knife on me when I informed him that he was under arrest; I put the AMT to his kneecap and pulled the trigger. He fell down and cried for momma, poor baby. The State gave him free room and board for fifteen years, and he gave up dancing forever. But RWS ammo is expensive, so I now go with the CCI Gold Dot. It does just as well, if not better, with its 1525 fps from the 6" AMT." - Gunblast, August 9, 2006

"In my days in Federal Service a number of our agents carried two shot derringers in 22 magnum during undercover operations where a gun couldn’t be seen. Very small and easy to hide...but yet nasty if hit with a shot from one. I fired one in the air one dark night in New York City, to get the attention of my backup officers....they said it looked like the electric company lighting the night! During the 1980s several medical examiners told us to shoot for the guts with the 22 mag...that it would fold the biggest bad guy up...or at least slow him considerably. That advice was followed, and proved to be very true in several undercover shootings....."

[SHOOTALL]

OK , now why would anyone carry a mouse gun in the first place ?
Dee you have experience with this stuff , i have taken the training classes but no where near what you have , Please tell me if I'm correct , a 22 mag. will kill for sure , but it often takes a bit of time to do so . In self defense it is of the most importance to STOP the one getting ready to kill or hurt you ! The aim is not to kill but to stop all aggression ! A 22 mag is not known to do so !
A man in a rage can inflict quite a bit of damage after being shot in a very short time ! add him being armed and you can multiply the effect !

[SHOOTALL]

with regard to Paco Kelly , loose cannon comes to mind !

[Dee]

Very exciting to read. It never occured to me to shoot someone in the kneecap, and then try and explain it in court room. The 22 mag. is like any other pistol round, which is to say, unless the shot is administered to the head, (risky with the 22) it is a hemorage weapon. Unless you hit bone with a major caliber, if the assailant is determined he can and will keep coming.
There was an incident in a city in Tx. several years ago (I got this story from a relative of the officer) where a gentleman on PCP was flailing the daylights out of an officer with his own night stick. The officer whom was on his back, shot the gentleman four times thru the torso with a 41 magnum. Officers running to his assistances gave testimony in statements that debris was coming out the back of the man. SO! 22 mag. for self defense? If a derringer is what you want, why not get one in major caliber, they are about the same size.
The story concerning the doctor about the 22mag folding the biggest bad guy when gut shot? BS! He may have said it, but I put it in the same box with the knee cap stunt. Paco sounds like an old west tale teller, don't know him, but don't need to.

[Ratltrap]

I'm no expert on terminal ballistics, but I'd say when multiple center-of-mass point-blank rounds from a 41 mag isn't stopping a human assault then no matter how you are armed you might wanna prepare to meet your maker.

Like everyone else who has responded I've no experience shooting anyone with a 22 WMR and it wouldn't be my choice for that application. But, I can attest that the WMR is much better than the LR for finishing off furbearers up to the size of wolves. Of the several hundred I've used in that application I've had none that bounced off or been stopped by a rib or skull bone and generally it only took one round to do the job with minimal damage to the hide whereas results with the 22 LR were much less predictable.

As for Paco Kelly, my experience with his "tales" are the same as with those each of you have posted to this thread - I've never met any of you and I have no idea whether you are posting fact or fantasy. No doubt Kelly is a self promoter, but he also has a well documented resume as a LEO, firearms instructor, reloader, and peer reviewed gunwriter that would be hard to match and is held in some esteem by the likes of John Taffin, Brian Pearce, and Jeff Quinn. He obviously doesn't need my endorsement, but based on my few correspondences with Paco he has always been very helpful and I'd not say he has ever come across as a "loose cannon". Certainly duplicating his gunsmithing and loading methods would not be for the faint of heart, but I've always found him forthcoming in both his writing and correspondence about where he's pushed the envelope a bit too far.  Hope I do meet him and each of you some day.