30-30 in home defense role

[azmark]

Hey guys,

Can I get some advice on 30-30 loads to use in a home defense role?

Full-on deer loads seem a bit much, but I've heard that handloads are a bad idea from a legal standpoint.

[Lloyd Smale]

id say youd be hardpressed to find a better home defense rifle then a 3030 loaded with factory rem 150 corelocks.

[Mikey]

Lloyd +1.  Mikey.

[wcf3030]

There you go azmark, 2 forums that vote for the 30-30.

[Keith L]

"Full-on deer loads seem a bit much, but I've heard that handloads are a bad idea from a legal standpoint. "

Where did this come from?

[azmark]

"Full-on deer loads seem a bit much, but I've heard that handloads are a bad idea from a legal standpoint. "

Where did this come from?

I've read that in several gun magazines.  Apparently prosecutors like to attack law-abiding gun owners who protected themselves with handloaded ammo.  They (supposedly) try to claim that by handloading, you're building "deadlier" or "more destructive" ammo or some such nonsense.

[ScoutMan]

Azmark,

Don't worry about the hand loads. I can connect you with a good attorney!!

That being said, you can increase the "handiness" of the 30-30 by reducing its length of pull. All my field rifles have a LOP of 12.5".

That being said, I have a Win Trapper that is about 34"  with a LOP of 12.5" . I don't think that it is any "handier" than my 20"bbl Marlin with a LOP of 12.5".

BTW my handload is 30gr of 3031 behind the 170gr. Nosler.

[J'hawker]

I think that it's more of a case of a few gun writers making assertions that have no real basis in reality.  The argument sounds plausible, but, as far as I know, it hasn't surfaced in court.  It just sells books and factory ammo.  The only case that I've heard of recently concerned the use of hollow point ammunition (Arizona, I think), and that was factory stuff.  Self defense with your deer rifle?  I think that would be an easy defense in a court room, certainly easier than if you had to use a handgun.

[Keith L]

I would have to see the case law before I would be concerned.  The factory ammo I have for personal protection is likely to be more destructive than anything I would dream up anyway.  And you know someone will be teeing off on you anyway if you use a gun for your protection anyway.  Like the NRA instructor told us when we took the Personal Protection for the Home class:  "If your gun clears leather in a personal protection situation your life will never be the same again."

[Savage .250]

 If your worried about ," ........."legal standpoint."     Then it`s best you don`t have a gun.
   Somebodies breaking into your house with the intent of killing You and this is what your thinking ?
   Not trying to be nasty just find your "problem" a little strange. 

[azmark]

Maybe I'm overthinking it, but I'm assuming that I'll survive an encounter.  If I don't, my worries are over.  I have to prepare to defend my home and family and a baseball bat don't cut it in my opinion.  I'm gonna shoot the idiot.  If some tree-hugging, illegal alien loving, liberal judge sends me to prison, I'm gone from my family just as though I were dead.  I consider it all part of self-defense.

One of my wife's favorite sayings is apt here: 

I love my country; it's my government that I fear.

[SHOOTALL]

that reload ammo BS has always ticked me off , if i'm on the way to the range or in the field hunting and get attacked ! you mean i can't defend myself with hand loaded target loads or hand loaded hunting loads ? ^&%^$#%^  as far as i'm concerned it was the criminal's fault he should not of attacked me when i had the WRONG ammo in my gun ! ( just who does he think he is anyway ? )
now if you place atomic waste in your hollow points ya might have a problem ,
By the way i watched a program where all the marine corp. sniper ammo is not only HAND loaded it is HAND loaded specific for each gun ! So do police departments do this also ? if so then gee whiz !
some writer named Abood or something keeps writing about it , his point is if you can use factory and stop one more BS claim against you before it starts , he could have a point ! if for no other reason than it cost you money for the attorney to defend ya !

[Mauser]

That there might be liability problems for using reloads has never made much sense to me.  After all aren't you using factory made components?  If make up a 30-30 load using a Win. case, CCI primer, RL 15 or IMR 4350, and a Core lokt or Hornady RN bullet, will some trial lawyer really be able to prove some miraculous extra killing power?  Most jacketed bullets you'll find today either are or were used in a factory load at some point.

[SHOOTALL]

What i have read , is they are trying to set you up , the defense is that you did what a prudent person would have done under the same circumstances , then you would be less prudent because the prudent person would have used factory ammo , that by reloading a " special " or more powerful bullet you were trying to use more force than the prudent person would have , so you must have wanted to inflict more pain or some other stupid idea !
Now anyone reading this site would say that is hogwash ! But only 12 hand picked non shooting idiots need to be convinced , so next time you come up for jury duty GO ! if we don't we will lose the NRA is right we need to vote , we need to vote in court too !
Think about this , we must have bbl's 18 inches long on shotguns , this law has never been challenged in court , since 1937or so ' almost went one time but the guy going to court ran and never was found ! Ruby ridge was not about the shot gun but entrapment the shot gun case was droped ! so if a case went to court and the jury voted not guilty , where would we be today ? The best way to stop the few bad lawyers is to man the jury with good people !
OK i'll get off the soap box !

[Keith L]

So this is still woulda coulda shoulda, but no cases.  I agree that we need to go to do our duty on juries, but like I said before I won't give this much thought until I see court cases that make it a problem.  Until then it is just internet fluff.

[Ratltrap]

...... and meanwhile back at the question.

Personally I prefer a 12 ga w/ #6s, but I think the 30-30 is fine for home defense. If you worry about shyster lawyers or punching through the neighbor's wall, use one of the target (CAS) loads that PMC or Ultramax makes. 550-850 muzzle fpe is 44 mag territory and plenty for point blank home defense.

[SHOOTALL]

Ayoob , has some cases listed in articles he writes , i just can't list them , Why # 6's ?
i have heard people say that before , then they say it won't go thru. Sheetrock !
I feel this is hogwash , I can put my fist thru. a Sheetrock wall but never been able to put it thru. someones chest so it makes little or no sense to trust my life to #6's , yes i full well know the pattern size at close range and that would hold true for either load so using smaller shot just doesn't make sense to me . I  feel if my life is on the line i want what will work period , none of the BS like if they have a leather coat or etc. it might not work ! Sorry , i don't like mouse guns or gimmicks ! or maybe's when its my butt on the line !

[Keith L]

I think the point is number sixes have killing power at ranges within your house, but aren't likely to go through someone and kill your neighbor.  I don't believe in the mouse guns for defense either, but don't use full metal jackets either.  I want a highly expandable bullet to do its job and stay close to where it is supposed to be.

My pistol coach said the ideal home defense gun is a 20 gage shotgun with number six shot.

[SHOOTALL]

My personal defense trainer said that a 20 ga. with #3 buckshot was a good choice , I understand your point about over penetration , but as with the hand loaded cartridge , has it been a problem ? My aunt was in her house when a man shot at a deer in her field , a 00 buck pellet went about 60 yards , thru. the wall of her house and hit her in the leg , the wall was 90 year old pine , no insulation and 3/8 sheet rock , it bruised her leg . hollow point bullets are wonderful right up to the point that the cavity fills with cloth , leather , sheet rock or some other media the bullet passed thru. then it is a solid . i don't intend to get into a your guy / my guy fight , i don't know your teacher , mine spent time in the middle east ,South America and Centrial America teaching and working in VIP protection , in the US he trains police , body gaurds and private citizens how to stay alive in life threating situations . It comes down to how one wants to go about protecting themselves , i want the best chance of survival i can have ! Did your man tell ya to pick shooting lanes in your home or to get low and angle shots upward to minize the threat to others , check out whats going on in govt. buildings , the walls are being bullet proofed and relocated to provide safe shooting zones so they can repell terroist attack , they didn't switch to less effective ammo !
Its much like the .45 vs. 9mm debate if you get the chance to learn first hand and live your choice was good on the other hand your choice might get ya killed ! The 45/9mm debate was easy for me , every thing i read said this 9mm bullet will expand to .45 size , in my backward way of thinking i figure why not start out .45 and if i get expansion I'm better off !
One last consecration , when i load my gun for self defense how do i know when or where or if it will be needed ? sort of like a fire ext. do ya want a little one or a big one ? or spare tires , do ya like the one time use ones that go 45mph or a standard tire spare ?

[Keith L]

I think there are many folks who think they can go hunting for an intruder, and perhaps in some states they can.  In Wisconsin you had better get to your safe room and take cover.  Shots will have to be at close range, and in my case they will be shooting up at an attacking intruder.

My personal defense weapon is a 45ACP.

I guess we have beat the hair off of this one now.  Lets get back to Marlin rifles.  Thanks for the discussion.

[Ratltrap]

Why # 6's ?
i

Because it's my grouse load too. At self defense range I don't think it matters much.  4s, 6s, #3 Buck .... at 1200 fps will all have the same effect on the perp but won't penetrate walls like a 170 grain rifle bullet. I'm not saying it won't go through walls, just that it won't do it with as much retained energy as a rifle bullet. Besides, the sound of a pump shotgun (or lever action) being cycled has to make you feel unwelcome.

[Dee]

As a retired SRT (swat) team leader), tactical K-9, and firearms instructor for 20 years, I find the concept of a 3030 (I have one bought new in 1957) as a home defense weapon a little scary. If nothing else is available at the time then so be it and let the chips fall where they may, but OVER PENETRATION is a key factor here. I have seen the results of a 3030 on the human body, and a thru shot is almost a guarantee on a normal size human being. Not only does one have to worry about drywall (sheet rock) but, outside walls as well, as even today's brick is not a guaranteed stopper of such a round.
The fact is a 9mm ball round will out penetrate a 125 grain jacketed hollow point out of a 357 magnum, and the 3030 will out penetrate both.
For years I taught a class to police officers I called "Shotgun Stress". It was how to win fights with a shotgun and I taught things that most folks didn't know a shotgun was capable of. For years I was also called to emergency rooms (as an investigator) on gunshot wounds, and I can tell you from 20 years experience that an ounce and seven eights of number seven and a half birdshot from a low base 12 guage will stop the BIGGEST man at room size distances REGARDLESS of what type of drug he might be on. A doctor once told me he could fix most bullet holes and buckshot pellet holes but hamburger was hard to fix, and that is what birdshot turns the human body into at room distances.
Yes, it will penetrate drywall, but afterwords it is pretty well spent. On the other hand I have NEVER saw a man take a solid hit from such a round at room size distances and NOT go down. EVEN LEG AND ARM HITS!
A handgun of major caliber (I recommend 38 to 40 caliber and prefer 45afterwords myself) is more maneuverable, but a shotgun is far more deadly than just about anything in close-quarters fighting. This is a fact I learned not from books, philosophy, charts, or gun writers. I learned it in fights, crime scene investigations, and emergency rooms.
Another note of experience I learned early on in my career. Don't count on the perpetrator backing down at the so called intimidating sound of a pump shotgun being racked. It is a myth that I learned from experience. Some are not afraid, and a man that will break into an occupied home has already made the decision that he is not afraid of a physical confrontation with the occupant or occupants. These are not my opinions, they are my experiences and observations from the real world. When one sends a bullet down the barrel one cannot call it back if it was a moment of error. The deed is done, and the consequences WILL BE FACED. 3030 Winchester for home defense? Think about it. There are better choices.

[SHOOTALL]

The hollow point load from Winchester or the accelerator load from Remington might be good choices , the new articles from the self appointed guru's on self defense seem to think a .223 hollow pt will not over penetrate as much as a hand gun bullet will ( maybe ) ,if so the Remington bullet might work best of all ! that is what was asked what would work !
As a note in many southern states , if attacked or invaded one is not required to retreat and can defend self and family !
No that is not a hunting lic. for bad/dumb guys !

[GRIMJIM]

To each his own but I still think I'll stick to a 12 guage for home defense.

[Keith L]

The hollow point load from Winchester or the accelerator load from Remington might be good choices , the new articles from the self appointed guru's on self defense seem to think a .223 hollow pt will not over penetrate as much as a hand gun bullet will ( maybe ) ,if so the Remington bullet might work best of all ! that is what was asked what would work !
As a note in many southern states , if attacked or invaded one is not required to retreat and can defend self and family !
No that is not a hunting lic. for bad/dumb guys !

It all depends on what bullets you are talking about.  A full metal jacket 223 will go through someone and be cooking along 5 houses down the block.  A VMax will fragment on impact and most likely not exit.  The same goes for pistol bullets.  I have some jacketed bullets that will go through most of the block, and again some bullets built to fragment on impact and prevent over penetration.  I know which ones I would choose if I have the time, and I know what kind are in the magazines for my .45 locked in the safe in my saferoom.  Since I plan and train for defense, I know the shots I get will be restricted to a few yards, so no need for a rifle. 

In Wisconsin should you use the ability of a rifle for longer shots I guarantee that you will spend time in prison.  Personal defense has to be just that: you can't hunt down the bad guys.  Retreat to a safe area where access can be controlled only makes sense.  I bet in those Southern states if you leave your house and hunt down bad guys you will have trouble too.

[canon6]

If you want to use the 30-30 for HD work, why not consider the Federal 125 gr HP,factory lists velocity at 2570 and I think it would to tend not to over penetrate ,my2c    Doug 

[SHOOTALL]

KIETHL ,No one said anything about hunting anyone down , we just don't have to turn tail and run into a safe room , by the way a safe room ? if a .223 will go thru. 5 houses ! what room is safe in a frame house with sheet rock walls ?
and if you read the post i referred to the Remington acc. round a varmint bullet ! not a fmj ! By the way 5 houses ? what kind plastic dog houses ? I guess i miss the point of the running or the idea that i can't defend myself with certain loads !
In the south my state in particular it is of little importance where a confrontation takes place , the ? is - would the average person believe he was in danger of death or great body harm , if he was in my situation ! has the attacker acted in a way or voiced that he was going to attack me ! Does he have the weapon or ability to attack me ! and am i certain i have not been the cause of the attack ! I guess we feel it is far more important to defend ourselfs when in fact we have a reason than to do so in a spefic room of the house !
Now if given the opportunity any sane person would run from a fight and not risk death or finical ruin as lawsuits are expensive ! But we are not always given that choice ! For those of you that are in  police training , check out the FBI , their findings are that the time from when some one kicks your door down until they reach the master bed room averages 45 or so seconds not much time to wake up , get the right load , get in the right room and decide if your life is in danger !
Also did you stop to think the guy who started this post might only own one gun ? a 30/30 ?

[Keith L]

Shootall, I did think that perhaps this questioner only had one gun.  If he lives in a place where he is in danger of needing to defend himself then he should consider getting one that is designed for the purpose.  A lever action 30-30 isn't it.  For that matter neither is a .223.  Most folks have far less than the 45 seconds you quote.  It is normally a second or two to react to the situation.  Most folks don't carry around their riflle, or their shotgun for that matter.

Obviously there is a matter of law difference between your location and mine.  I can react when attacked and may have a chance to survive the criminal courts.  If the attacker leaves the room and I follow and shoot him I can count on jail time.  If your laws are different then fine.  We all need to know the difference legally between defense and persuit.  Shooting at rifle distances is persuit.

[Dee]

I have looked at shoot reports where the hollow point did not perform well, or at all. Having investigated NUMEROUS shoot incidents and actually being involved in two, forensic reports, experience and training and research for the dept. makes the point gruesomely clear. Hollow points work on hydrolics, in this case body fluids. Why do they sometimes not open up? On several occasions the perp was wearing clothing that stopped the hollow point up not allowing body fluids to enter into the caviety and cause the disired reaction i.e. mushroom.
A hollow point works much like a cookie cutter. If the cookie cutter makes it to flesh before clothing material are deposited into the hollow point all is well SOMETIMES!. If not, you may as well be shooting ball ammo or soft point. It (the hollow point) will perform the same.
The same is true for sheetrock (or drywall if you prefer). It too will stop up the hollow point and cause it not to perform as expected. A 125 grain hollow point turned loose out of a 30 calibur rifle at rifle or pistol velocities is a dangerous proposition in a populated area, much less a house. If one thinks this is a safe alternative one is fooling ones self. A pistol grip pump action shotgun or a short actioned double barrel shotgun with low base birdshot is far more safe, and by far more effective at room distances than ANY pistol or rifle of ANY caliber. I used to keep one above the bedroom door when my kids were young. That way I could reach up and get it on my way to check out the problem.
The information given on the hollow point is FACT backed with forensic science, and on site observation and experience. All else is pure spectulation. One NEVER knows if a hollow point will perform as advertised untill the deed is done. Then it may be too late.

[superjay01]

Keith I think you are right on with what you are saying about knowing the law. I live in Pennsylvania and we have the retreat law as well.

 The only thing that I would have to say about reloads is why would you want to take the chance that it could even become an issue in criminal court? The other issue that it would come up in would be the civil case that is sure to come after the criminal case. If you pull the trigger on someone regardless of what that person is doing you have still caused harm to them so more often than not you will loose a civil case.

There was a case in the suburbs of Pittsburgh, PA where a naked drunk guy who lived in a row house stumbled out of his and into his next door neighbors house, the neighbor shot and killed his drunk neighbor and went to jail for it. The DA's case was simple the naked drunk neighbor had no weapon or intent to hurt the guy whose house he stumbled into. I am all for protecting my family and myself, but I will only do it if my back is literally up against the wall.