Hardcast, meplats, and hunting

[jk3006]

I keep hearing that the only factor in determining wound channel is the size of the meplat, along with velocity.  I realize that a bigger, heavier bullet will penetrate farther than a  smaller, lighter one even if they have the same size meplat.  For your average deer and black bear I can't see where a really big heavy bullet (.500-450, .475-400, etc.) is needed to get an exit.  So, here's my dilemma, if you want to call it that.  I shoot .44 mag.  I generally use 300 grainers with a .340 meplat at 1200-1300 fps.  I've been looking thru the various forums for posts on the big bores, such as the .500 Linebaugh.  I've found a couple of good posts that stated that a .500 Linebaugh shooting a 400 grainer at 1000 fps will hammer medium to big game, leaving a very big wound channel. 

Here's the dilemma.  I want the widest meplat I can get in the 300 grain range for my .44 mag.  Laser cast makes one that has a .370 meplat (310 grain).  If I hunt with a bullet like this at 1200-1300 fps will I get similar wound channels and wounding ability as a .500 Linebaugh with light to moderate loads?  This is assuming (for the sake of comparison) that the .500 is shooting a bullet of the same meplat.  I realize they get much bigger in some cases.  I have no experience with the big bores, but lately I have had an interest in possibly eventually getting one.  Is there something to the bullet diameter, regardless of meplat that makes the big bores wound better?  Or is it purely meplat?  I'd sure like a confirmation on this, as I've been wondering about it for a long time. 

Remember, penetration is not my focus here, as I only hunt deer and black bear. 

I'd like to hear from your experiences regarding the above criteria.  Thanks. 

Ps.  Using Veral's formula for calculating displacement, let's say that a .500 Linebaugh is shooting a 400 grainer, .410 meplat, at 1000 fps.  A .44 mag is shooting a 310 grainer, .370 meplat, at 1300 fps.  The .500 makes a 1.025 inch wound channel, whereas the .44 makes a 1.2 inch wound channel.  This is what the numbers say, but real world experience seems to say that the .500 will still hammer harder than the .44, even with those loads.  Is this correct?     

[Graybeard]

Bigger really is better but once you reach the .429" bore size it don't get a LOT better. A decent 240 cast from it will do all that's needed on deer even at 1000 fps. More velocity in my experience really adds little other than a very slight flatening of trajectory which is of no concern to me.

[Lloyd Smale]

for deer sized game your going to see very little differnce in the killing power of a 44 compared to a 500.  Dead is dead and the 44 will definately kill a deer or bear. In the case of comparing handgun bullets metplat wieght and sectional density have to all be factored in. In many cases a 300 grain 44 will outpenetrate a 400 grain 500.

Measuring a wound channel you not only have to measure the width of the wound channel but the length as well. That is why cast kill as well or better then jacketed bullets. They may not make as wide of channel but it is almost allways longer. I find that a short light for caliber bullet such as a 400 grain lfn in a 500 lacks the sectional density for really good penetration. Now dont get me wrong here it has plenty enough for deer or black bear and will usually give complete pentration in game that size and will usually have a bigger metplat then a 44 lfn of any design.

To get a comparable metplat in a 44 you need to go to a wfn and then again your giving up the sectional density that you gained with the lfn design and penetration will suffer some. Thats kind of why ive allways preached that i prefer bigger guns with heavier for caliber bullets and if the recoil bothers you and you have to compromise, compromise in the velocity if anything. A 450 grain 500 at 1000 fps will usually out penetrate a 400 at any speed.

Another factor that weights heavily in penetration is bullet alloy. In testing once a bullet is deformed in anyway penetration suffers drasticaly and it doesnt take much. So your bullet must be hard enough to not rivit or mushroom and must be maluable enough that it doesnt fracture. Thats why ive allways agian preached that guns like 454s and 460s really dont kill any better then 45 colts in the field. Cast bullets in a handgun will usually start doing funny things if pushed about 1300 fps and shoving them out at 1700 fps is just asking for trouble (if ultimate penetration is your goal)

Same thing goes for jacketed bullets. Push a jhp to 1600 fps and for the most part your creating a varmit load. It may kill 10 deer like lightning but eventually its going to let you down. Now in all this bs your going to have to read between the lines a little. Bottom line is a deer or even a black bear is not hard to kill and just about any bullet at any reasonable speed out of even a 41 mag will do the job on them and if they were all i was ever going to hunt id load 250 swc or lfn .44s to a 1000 fps and never look back and the same exact thing can be said of the 45 colt.  Add 50 grains of bullet weight and id feel completely comfortable on game up to 800 lbs.

Personaly anything bigger and id want a bigger gun. Animals bigger then 800 lbs are usually given a pretty big bone stucture by God and theres no doubt in my mind that heavier bullets do a better job on them.  Sure elphant and cape bufflalo have been taken with heavy 44 and 45s but theyve been taken with 220 swifts and 257 weatherbys too and even 17 cal centerifires but that doesnt make it right. So as you can see theres a fine balancing act here. For the most part it cant be made into a mathimatical formula thats going to tell you what is ideal for your application. You have to understand all the different variables and make an educated desision on what you need to use.

One thing i allways do though is look at worse case senerios. You cant hunt with a load that will only work with a behind the shoulder shot. Even if your a dedicated enough hunter that you are willing to pass on a marginal shot there will come a time when you will have a wounded animal that you will need to put down and your bullet and load must be up to handling even the worse case senerios. Even deer hunting with a handgun takes thought in my opinion. Sure jacket bullets kill deer and in most case do it a tad more quickly then a cast. But just a few years ago hunting at camp my nephew wounded a small whitetail. My brother in law and i tracked the deer for hours and finally came to the edge of about a 100 yard opening. The deer busted cover at the edge and started a full bore run accross the field. I had my 500 linebaugh loaded with 440s at 1000 fps on me. Not because i needed a gun that big but because it was the closest gun to me when he came into camp looking for help. I made a very lucky shot on that deer at about 60 yards and caught in just below the anus in mid stride and piled him up right on the spot. That bullet came out the deers chest and took out most of the insides of the deer doing it.

Would a 44 240 jhp done the same. Maybe but i seriously doubt it. Now ill go the other route with this whole thing. Some guys shake there heads at guys hunting deer and bear with a gun like a 500 linebaugh smith or even a 475 and consider them more of a dinasour killing weapon the a deer hunting gun. There far from it. Ive personaly watched buffalo hit twice with a .500 keep eating grass till they keeled over. What a guy has to keep in mind is even with the biggest loads in these guns your still only at the power levels of a factory 4570 rifle. Not a slouch by any means but certainly not a dinasour slayer. The big advantage we have over the factory 4570 goes right back to bullet selection and alloys. The bullets available for these guns are just flat superior to whats loaded in the factory 4570 ammo. I shake my head at people that will laugh at me for taking a 500 linebaugh in the woods to hunt deer with but arm themselves with a gun like a 7mag to do the same. I guarantee you one thing ill end up with alot less blood shot meat then he will.

Sorry about all the rambling but IM ON DRUGS!!

[Redhawk1]

Well put Lloyd, but I thought he said Deer and Bear. Your shooting Beer. LOL

[Lloyd Smale]

told you they got me doing some good drugs!

Well put Lloyd, but I thought he said Deer and Bear. Your shooting Beer. LOL

[kennisondan]

I was waitnig for more info on that thread. the responses were most helpfull.
Now, off to work.
damn work
dk

[Mikey]

jk3006:  Graybeard says it right, Lloyd gives you the technical basis, who could ask for anything more?

We have a sponsor list on the home page - check it out for reloading suppliers.  Laser cast makes some good bullets but there are others with different designs that you may like even more.  

Mikey.

[okie john]

Long ago, I shot a medium-sized whitetail with a 4" 629, a machine-cast 240 Keith and 10 grains of Unique. MV was probably no more than 1,050 and range was well over 100m, so impact velocity was probably pretty low. (Yes, I was young and stupid back then, but I was a much better shot.) A Keith is less effective than any LBT design, but it exited, and the deer only went a few steps.

Your load beats the pants off of the load I used. I'd say that you're right where you need to be. You could even back off a little and save wear and tear on your hands. 


Okie John

[jk3006]

Thanks for all your replies!  I knew I'd get Lloyd to answer for sure.  I hope you heal up fast, Lloyd.  I'm sure you'd rather be shooting your .500 than talking about it. 

[safetysheriff]

jd jones articles -- that can be found at www.findarticles.com -- contain one which speaks of JHP's as the way to go for deer.   it's one of his articles on 'ballistic truths'.    i hunt with both cast and jacketed and think that for whitetails a jacketed bullet makes the most sense if it is of a proper weight/velocity/construction for the size of animal and the distance to it.   

admittedly, however, some Laser-Cast 180 gr's flat points in .357 mag' have done an excellent job accuracy-wise out of my Ruger GP-100 and they probably penetrate very well.    BUT, with a  .44 mag' i'd use the 210 gr' jhp by Rem' and probably get the same results or better than i'd get out of a 265 gr' RNFP (by national bullet co') as far as Quickly putting down a deer shot at a distance of 100 yds' or less.    the sharp edges of a jacketed bullet cutting on a deer's lungs make sense to me!

for deer and many black bear i don't think you want a bullet heavier than 240 gr's in a .44 mag' IF it's a jacketed hollow-point.   the heavier jacketed bullets will not move as fast and may not open up as quickly.   and, unless hunting something bigger than a grizzly bear i don't think a caliber larger than a .44 mag' is needed.   i really think that when you bore a hold through an animal like a .44 mag' does that you can expect a proper wound channel if your bullet is properly chosen and placed, with sufficient velocity.

good hunting to you,

ss'