Practical difference between .444 and 45-70

[tantrum]

What are the real differences between the .444 and the 45-70.  Both seem to have plenty of thump.  I am now itching to get a big bore lever and as I look at these two guns I wonder if one is any superior than the other.  Accuracy, factory loads, recoil, etc.  I have quickly gone from being a long distance bolt gun lover for the past 28 years to an open sight lever nut.  Guess it comes with age.  Thanks for any experienced input.

[Rangr44]

The .45-70 will handle way heavier bullets, should you be so inclined, and is available in a much wider variety of firearms than the .444.

The .444, though, has a slightly flatter trajectory.

I have had, and like, both - but currently own only a .45-70, of the two.

[adirondacker]

i have both the 444 and the 45/70 in the marlin outfitter guide gun.i use only jacketed bullets,300 grn in the 444 with a velocity of 1900-1950.i have a scout style mount with an adco red dot on it.this is a wicked nice woods carbine.if you wanted something a little faster the 240 grn bullet would be a good choice.i would guess you could push this up to and over 2000 fps.
 my 45/70 is a cast bullet gun,lower velocity heavier bullet.still a very respectable combination.not as flat a trajectory but cheap to shoot and great for close to medium range shots.you just need to make sure if you are going to shoot cast bullets you need a non-micro-groove barrel.the new hornady leverevalution ammo for the 45/70 is pretty nice,shoots good in the m-grooves.
  with both rifles you ARE going to experience a fair amount of recoil.the 45/70 responds well to slower heavier bullet loads,if you are concerned about the recoil.a ported barrel although hard on the ears will help to decrease the amount of felt recoil.
  my 444 is ported,my 45/70 is not,i o have a #1 45/70 that is magna-ported,it seems to help.
  as far as accuracy it is hard to beat these marlins for lever gun accuracy.my 444 will shoot 3" or less at 100 yds,i do not have target sights,the adco is a hunting sight,put a 10 x scope on this gun i'm sure it would do better.the 45/70 is historically a target quality cartridge,you will not be dissapointed with the accuray you will acheive.my #1 with a 9x scope will put three touching at 100 using 405 grn cast bullets.i have not shot the 45/70 marlin for accuracy,the last one i had shot as well as my ruger.nothing wrong with 3 405 grn bullets  into 1" at 100 yds.
  overall i would say,want more speed,flatter trajectory go with the 444,want more versatility heavier bullets go 45/70.personally i couldn't decide so i have both.pick up two carbines one 444 one 45/70,i'll bet your wife wont'd be able to tell the diference between the two.good luck,adker

[Lloyd Smale]

the 4570 is definatly capable of more power. With top end loads your shoulder will sure remind you of that. The 444s has allways been a favorite of mine. With 300 grain plus hardcast bullets its capable of taking any game animal in the world. Its about a spiting imagae of the old 405 and look at what teddy did with that and did it with bullets that are vastly inferior to whats available now. It does it with less recoil and a fatter trajectory. I about couldnt think of a better combination then a good 444 loaded with kelly shlepps brass punch bullets. It would make for a fast handling gun with the power of alot of african stopping rifles.

[Coyote Hunter]

Both are great cartridges but…

1. There is a considerably greater range of ammo available for the .45-70.

2. There is a greater range of good hunting bullets available for the .45-70, from 250g Barnes X to 500g jacketed to 540g hardcast.

3. The .45-70 will shoot as flat as a .444 Marlin when using bullets with the same sectional density and faster than the .444 when using bullets of equal weight.

4. The .45-70 can be downloaded as far as the .444 can be, but the .444 cannot deliver the power the .45-70 can deliver.

5. Both will easily take any critter in North America.

[tantrum]

Thanks for the input.  I have another question.  I have shot plenty of .300 mags, Win. and Wby. , is the recoil similar to this?    I definitely feel the recoil on paper amd don't notice when shooting game so hunting situations aren't a problem but I don't like feeling like I took a whipping after I fire twenty rounds at the range.  I don't particularly care for porting a barrel.  Are there any recoil pads that are better than another?  After all is said and done those big bore Marlins look and feel great.  I have not reloaded in over 20 years but just reading some of the post here it seems that you can't really get the full potential of either of these rounds in factory ammo.  Thanks.

[davem270win]

If you're used to shooting 300 mags, 45-70 recoil should be a piece of cake. The 45-70 is more of a shove, rather than the "slap" you get from higher velocity rounds. Don't get the barrel ported, it makes the gun louder and cheeses off the guy shooting next to you. If your're using trapdoor level loads, recoil should be no problem at all. And even max handloads for the Marlin are not bad.
The 444 will kick even less.

[Coyote Hunter]

I don’t care for ported barrels either, but some do.

Consider that a .300 Win Mag load in an 8.3 pound rifle/scope combo will have recoil around 29 foot-pounds, depending on load specifics (180g bullet, 70.0g powder, 3038fps = 29.3fp).

By contrast, my .45-70 loads range from about 7 foot-pounds to 48 foot-pounds (without the scope, which reduces recoil).  My favorite hunting load (350g North fork @ 2183fps) generates around 42.7 foot-pounds.

No need to take a beating at the range. Add a good recoil pad and slide a slip-in recoil pad over that.  Amazing what they will do.  All I have is a ‘Kick Killer’ slip-on, but I added an extra 1/2” foam before sliding it on.

Between 7 foot-pounds and 48 foot-pounds I have another 17 or 18 loads to choose from, more than any other cartridge I load for.  Go ahead and get yourself a Marlin but be warned they are addictive.

[Rangr44]

I too, haven't handloaded in over 20 years - but I'm smiin' more 'n more, every day, what with the excellent selection of high performance loads now available across the counter, that were once only obtainable through handloading.

Both the .444 & the .45-70 have these loads available from major manufacturers and specialty makers, like Garrett Cartridge's Hammer Head loads.

I find them to be about the same to shoot as a .338 Win Mag - unless one is shooting from a poorly designed stock that'll slap you silly.

For summer T-Shirt sighting-in & practice, I use a slip-on recoil pad to both ease my old bare bones, and to compensate in length/thickness for the lack of my winter hunting clothes.

If any shooter has shoulder probs/bursitis/etc - the Pachmayr Decellerator pad is worth the while.

[Mikey]

The 444 is more a reloader's cartridge than the 45-70.  There are tons of 45-70 commercial loadings but few, other than factory loadings for the 444.  With proper handloads or custom loads the 444 will take anything on the continent.  Both calibers, with proper custom loads from places like Cor-Bon or Garret or Buffalo Bore have taken the African Big 5.

I have 3 444s and do not see the need for a 45-70.  All my 444s shoot heavy cast slugs and are incredibly accurate.  I do not go looking for large dangerous game but would not have a problem using one of my 444s if one came looking. 

45-70, 444 - one has a slightly larger bore, one shoots slightly flatter, one takes heavier bullets than the other, one shoots faster than the other but both will take anything on the continent, or planet for that matter.  Your choice.  Mikey.

[EsoxLucius]

In North America there is likely to be no practical difference between them, except possibly going after a wounded Brown Bear in the alder.  For the largest or nastiest animals on earth the 45-70 is probably a better choice.

When both the 45-70 Gov't and 444 Marlin are loaded to their potential in Marlin lever guns, given equal sectional density, the 45-70 Gov't will drive a bullet of similar construction and configuration at least as fast as the 444 Marlin, and given equal weight, the 45-70 Gov't will drive a bullet of similar construction and configuration significantly faster than the 444 Marlin. Hence, the 45-70 Gov't will shoot just as "flat" (as in equivalent trajectory) as the 444 Marlin while delivering more energy to the target and more recoil to the shooter.