Author Topic: 10ga Frame?? (Read 1446 times)

trotterlg · « **on:** May 28, 2007, 10:43:56 AM »

Is the 10 gauge frame considered a rifle frame, like heat treated and strong like a SB2 frame? Would this make a good platform for a stubbed barrel rifle project? Larry

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** May 28, 2007, 10:55:10 AM »

It's not considered a rifle frame, but it is heat treated from what Ed Hubel has learned.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,90059.msg571429.html#msg571429

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,79991.msg1098264083.html#msg1098264083

45454 · « **Reply #2 on:** May 28, 2007, 10:56:46 AM »

Quote from: trotterlg on May 28, 2007, 10:43:56 AM

Is the 10 gauge frame considered a rifle frame, like heat treated and strong like a SB2 frame? Would this make a good platform for a stubbed barrel rifle project? Larry

Hello,
I was told this on, think,Yahoo Group:
Was considering to get a rifle barrel on a shotgun reciever.
Told that the shotgun recievers are designed for shotgun use only.
And, wouldn't stand the pressures of the high power like 30-05/308,45-70 etc.
So, I bought the 45-70 HandiRifle instead.On this reciever,if you want another caliber,then send the reciever in,or order
the barrels and fit them yourself.
Hope this helps.

moxgrove · « **Reply #3 on:** May 28, 2007, 10:59:59 AM »

The 10 ga frame is still a shotgun frame just bigger than the sb-1. It doesn't have the special heat treating. The 12 ga from hell project is about using slower than normal for shotgun powders to get the velocities not magnum pressures. It could still be an interesting format for a special black powder type rifle cartridge project. If you read Ed Huebel's thread, you can see he isn't trying to build a high pressure round. What he has accomplished on his turnbolt is a whole other matter

moxgrove · « **Reply #4 on:** May 28, 2007, 11:01:25 AM »

I could be wrong on the heat treating. It was just what I researched.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #5 on:** May 28, 2007, 11:08:13 AM »

Please read it again, I'm still waiting for Ed's final testing of the frame hardness.

Tim

Quote from: hubel458 on June 15, 2006, 10:01:56 AM

Tim--I got different person at NEF and they
said 10 & 12 Gage barrels are hammer forged,
and that SB2 shotgun 10 & 12ga are treated actions.
They didn't know how hard they were treated to,
but I will find someone to test hardness and
then can figure tensile strength.I had to
grind a little on it as I am fitting
a heavy thumbhole stock, and it seems as hard as
Savage 210 and my Ruger 77..Ed

Rifle barrels won't fit on a 10ga or 12ga slug gun frame, barrels are too small from what I've learned so far.

moxgrove · « **Reply #6 on:** May 28, 2007, 11:14:24 AM »

Right about the other barrels not fitting. The 12 gauge is a 10 gauge barrel with a 12 gauge hole. I would think you could do some serious stub or even a low pressure liner. If you stepped it. That is a big pipe to work with. I have to know what you are thinking up Quick.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #7 on:** May 28, 2007, 11:23:51 AM »

Nothing exotic, maybe a 6.5-284 using a custom barrel like my 6.5x55 project. I wanted the 6.5-284 originally, but the .500" case head and my experience with the 300WSM made me shy away from it. If the 10ga frame truly is heat treated, it might be a good platform for the bigger non-magnum rounds including the Improved versions. I get frame flex with my .280 Improved with top loads in it. Another one would be one of the 9.3mm rounds, they have larger case heads, but not mag pressures, I can get a 27½" 9.3mm Douglas blank for $125, it measures the same diameter as the 10ga barrels, 1.2".

Just some serious thinking is all.

Tim

moxgrove · « **Reply #8 on:** May 28, 2007, 11:31:54 AM »

very interesting and heavy.

BANG_OW · « **Reply #9 on:** May 28, 2007, 11:53:55 AM »

Is this going to be a bench shooter, or do you have forearms like Popeye?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #10 on:** May 28, 2007, 11:58:32 AM »

I haven't got that far yet!!! The 6.5x55 is a bench gun, the 28" barrel blank alone weighs over 7lbs, is .890" at the muzzle. The other project would probably have a trimmer contour when all is said and done, but that remains to be seen.

Tim

moxgrove · « **Reply #11 on:** May 29, 2007, 06:04:01 AM »

the thought of a 9.3x74 handi is definitely intriguing , heavy wouldn't be a bad thing with a thumper like that.

I actually had a similar idea on the 38-55. Necking down 45-120 brass and running it that way. Kind of a 38-56 long. Unfortunately the oddball bore size of the target classic put the brakes on that notion.
I have thought about going the whole rebore route though. I am not looking for a super hotrod, but I bet it could duplicate the old tropical loads of the .375. After all your 405 is in the ballpark .
My current project is rechambering my ejector 7-08 to 7 ste. better ejection and I can get the same velocities with a bit lower pressure.

Smokin Joe · « **Reply #12 on:** May 29, 2007, 07:21:25 AM »

moxgrove, why not the .375 H & H flanged? Brass is available and the Kynock loading is just 18 tons.

moxgrove · « **Reply #13 on:** May 29, 2007, 07:37:50 AM »

The case head is the same as .404 Jeffrey . I was looking to stick with the same head size as the 38-56 and was hoping to get 2300 fps from 300 grain bullets. Nothing to set the world on fire , just solid performance. On the 10 ga frame though it might be something to consider. I also was going for just a simple rechamber , with of course the added expense of the none too cheap brass and dies.Remember too that the target classic is a 28 inch barrel so that would help the velocity a bit maybe an extra 150or so over a 24 inch barrel. I still was just going for the velocity. at as low a pressure as possible.

moxgrove · « **Reply #14 on:** May 29, 2007, 07:48:42 AM »

Smokinjoe You are right. I just rechecked my dimension list and the flanged .375 does have only a .572 rim. that is a bit smaller even than the .608 of the 45-70. Of course the odd bore size of the handi makes it moot.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #15 on:** May 29, 2007, 08:19:34 AM »

I think you're mixing terms here, case head and rim size are two different things, case head, or more importantly, internal case head surface is the only dependent size factor concerning case head thrust or bolt thrust, rim size has nothing to do with it.

Tim

Quote

Bolt Thrust
Bolt thrust is easy to calculate. Only two inputs are required. They are peak chamber pressure in PSI and as mentioned, the inside area of the case head that the gas pressure can work on. The formula then is:

THRUST=AREA*CPSI Where:

AREA=3.1416*(HS/2)^2

HS=the diameter of the inside of the case head.

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/custom_actions/bolt_lug_strength.htm

moxgrove · « **Reply #16 on:** May 29, 2007, 08:21:15 AM »

thanks quick.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #17 on:** May 29, 2007, 08:27:16 AM »

Here's a good one for ya, the 6.5-284(284) case has a rim that's the same size as the 30-06 family at .473", but the case head is .500", has a rebated rim, but the large case head is what chased me off it on the 6.5 project.

Tim

Mac11700 · « **Reply #18 on:** May 29, 2007, 08:34:27 AM »

Quote from: moxgrove on May 29, 2007, 07:48:42 AM

Smokinjoe You are right. I just rechecked my dimension list and the flanged .375 does have only a .572 rim. that is a bit smaller even than the .608 of the 45-70. Of course the odd bore size of the handi makes it moot.

I think your also mixing cartridges as well...

The .375 Flanged Magnum Nitro express has a rim size of .572"..and head diameter is .511"...with 80 grains of 4350 this conversion would probably be way too much for the Handi to tolerate...Now...the regular .375 Flanged Nitro Express...would be more suited..it's rim diameter is .523" and it's head size is .456" using 46 grains of 3031..and is more in line with the 38-55 dimensions.

Mac

moxgrove · « **Reply #19 on:** May 29, 2007, 08:44:46 AM »

Come on guys , now you're getting me thinking about reviving what I thought was a dead horse!

myarmor · « **Reply #20 on:** May 29, 2007, 08:54:48 AM »

For what it's worth I also spoke with CS (Mary)...really nice by they way... and she said these are the blued heat treated receivers and "eventually all will be"

. Not sure if that means all SB-1's will be done this way or not $:-\$

-Aaron

quickdtoo · « **Reply #21 on:** May 29, 2007, 01:27:18 PM »

My guess is they're gonna go to using the same SB2 frame for all their firearms except the 10ga based shotguns, to reduce liability, probably a smart move, but it will end up increasing the cost for the shotguns and maybe the rimfires.

I found this pressure test post and a few others on another site where Ed posts.

Tim

Quote

Hot Damn- Test Results of 4 plastic cases.
Rem high base 3" case, with 600 gr
Dixie hardened slug. Roll crimped with
crimper in drill press. All 4 loaded with
90 gr of 4759. We have a winner.
Average velocity of 4 -- 1938 fps
Average pressure of 4 -- 14, 575 psi.
tested with transducer test ing setup,
in 30 inch barrel,In my 24" NEF I got 1800+.
Cases fell out of his test chamber like they did out of my NEF.And with some cases I can get in 95gr, that I figured with my math would
have 15k psi.So my math and developement is
OK.And 4800 ft lbs, thats neat with plastic.
Tom says this load will do in any gun that handles the 2 oz factory magnum goose loads
that test about 13,600 to 14,000.And 4759
will give slower time to peak pressure, thus
will be easier on cases than magnum goose loads
or the hot factory Buckhamer slug loads
I fired, that expanded cases as much or more
tham our 4759 loads.Ed

Quote

Will get weight up to
18-20 lbs.This SB2 10-12ga Ultra slug
NEF action is investment cast and heat
treated, like their SB2 rifle actions... Barrel is hammer-forged rifling.
Barrel is 1.21 in at breech, 1.1 at muzzle.
Barrel is too short, but will fix in future.
Should get 600gr hard slug over 2000 w/short
barrel, 200 ft more with long barrel later.
And chamber fires regular 3 in cases.Ed

Quote

NEF Ultra has alloy barrels, and heat
treated alloy action.It is investment cast
ala Ruger guns and heat treated.It is
SB2 action like NEF makes bigger rifles from
only it has bigger firing pin.It is also
used for 10ga Ultra..It is a bit heavier than their regular steel actions.You probably
could get NEf barrels for 12ga Ultra from
company but I'd get longer ones elsewhere. I
don't like that short 24" barrel.They won't
make long alloy 12ga barrels at NEF,
I asked them a couple times.There other
12 guages and 20 ga are on SB1 actions
which are regular steel, no heatreating.
A decent length barrel adds up to a bunch free
muzzle energy with same short barrel
loadings, IE don't have to jackup
pressures.Ed

moxgrove · « **Reply #22 on:** May 29, 2007, 03:18:07 PM »

Darn it! Now I have to seriously consider working more OT.That 9.3 x74 is really running through my head now. How much is your 6.5/284 gonna run?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #23 on:** May 29, 2007, 03:21:20 PM »

I haven't worked on the 6.5-284 yet, the 6.5x55 will run about $200 or so, but the 6.5-284 would probably be similar in cost except it would be on the 10ga frame. I'm still waiting on some more info from Ed concerning the 10ga frame.

Tim

moxgrove · « **Reply #24 on:** May 30, 2007, 08:45:59 AM »

I guess now I have no excuse to not buy A USH. Ed's blogs were pulling me to it any way.

ken2222 · « **Reply #25 on:** May 30, 2007, 02:06:15 PM »

I'm just listening......

quickdtoo · « **Reply #26 on:** May 30, 2007, 02:20:22 PM »

Quote from: ken2222 on May 30, 2007, 02:06:15 PM

I'm just listening......

earsdropper!!!

moxgrove · « **Reply #27 on:** May 30, 2007, 03:33:49 PM »

Be careful you might get ideas stuck in your head,believe me!

quickdtoo · « **Reply #28 on:** June 02, 2007, 12:40:41 PM »

Well, so much for that idea, there's nothing to be gained by using a 10ga frame as a platform for a rifle, unless it's a big bore using the 12ga barrel in a low pressure round like Ed Hubel is working with.

The frame isn't any bigger in any dimension except the firing pin hole, in fact it takes the same butt stock as any other H&R!! I was able to put the 280 barrel I bought from Ken right on the frame, it locked up tight with zero gap at the standing breech, but there's a gap on each side of the barrel at the frame.

The differences are the matte finish of course, and the frame is thinner at the top on the sides of the barrel, almost to a knife edge, to allow for the larger 1.2" barrel of the 10ga and slug barrels. Even made of heat treated steel, it wouldn't be as strong as the SB2 rifle frame which has more material in the sides of the frame.

Tim

hunman55 · « **Reply #29 on:** June 02, 2007, 01:03:07 PM »

Thanks, Tim for that info. I have a SB2 10ga.and couldn't see any difference in the size from a rifle SB2 or Shotgun SB1, but that cleared it up. Now I'll have to have the frame fitted with the US barrel and see what Hubel does. This 70plus caliber stuff is very interesting to me-shotgun slugs, that is. Hunman55