Hornady's 444 Marlin LEVERevolution ammo and black bear???

[NYH1]

My friend went to Canada last week on a black bear hunt. He brought a 444 Marlin (22" barrel). He shot two black bear using Hornady's 265 gr. LEVERevolution ammo. He never got either bear. They both ran off. There was some blood sign, but not much. Both shots were under 50 yards.

The first one was standing like it was quartering away, but wasn't moving. He hit it in the back of the ribs so it would go towards the off side front shoulder. The bear turned and was biting where it was hit. Then it just ran off.

The second one was standing broad side. He shot it in the lung area. It dropped on the shot, got up and ran straight towards him and stopped about 10 yards away. He shot it again. It turned and ran off.

They tried tracking them. There wasn't enough blood once the bears took off running. He couldn't believe it. Does anyone have experience with Hornady's LEVERevolution ammo and black bears. I personally think he should have used Hornady's 265 Flat Point Light Mag. ammo myself. What do you think.

[Cottonwood]

Tell him to go back to using old reliable in good jacked soft point bullet.....

[NYH1]

Tell him to go back to using old reliable in good jacked soft point bullet.....

Yeah I told him that after the fact. He's kind of turned off by the 444 now. He's a great shot and knows he hit them where he wanted to. I told him I think it was the ammo and not the caliber/cartridge. I've personally never been sold on the LEVERevolution ammo. If I want to use a ballistic tip bullet it will be in my 308 Win. or 280 Rem. I also wouldn't hunt black bear with a ballistic tip bullet. That's just me though.

[Dixie Dude]

I think the Leverevolution ammo is geared for deer since most hunters are deer hunters.  Bear have a lot more muscle, fat, and fur to penetrate to vital areas.  Am I right in this assumption?  I would use heaver bullets on bear than I would for deer out of the same caliber gun.  I've heard good things about it from deer hunters. 

[Drilling Man]

I think the Leverevolution ammo is geared for deer since most hunters are deer hunters.  Bear have a lot more muscle, fat, and fur to penetrate to vital areas.  Am I right in this assumption?

  Your "assumption is right, BUT it sounds like the bullets aren't expanding properly and a bear would make them expand "more" than if the same bullet hit an deer!  That is "if" the story is correct, as if you don't recover the animial, you really don't know how it was hit or what happened!

  DM

[corbanzo]

Black bears aren't that thick skinned, browns are, but blacks are considered light-skinned game.  I hunt them with 180grn ballistic tips out of a 30-06. 

I dont see any reason why that .444 wouldnt knock him dead, sounds like he hit too far back on the ribs and didnt get a good vital shot.  A bears heart is pretty far up and low in the chest when bent over, like a humans is.  He may of just clipped the back of the lungs, if any at all. 

You need the speed though for ballistic tips, I'm in agreement that a JSP would have worked better in this situation. 

[NYHunter]

I agree, I don't think the bullets opened up enough, No expansion, no shock ... and unfortunately 2 lost bears that no doubt did die. I think I'll still stick with SP Core-Lokts for bear, and deer, until I read more info on the Hornady ammo. IMO all you need when hunting over bait are
SP Core-Lokts, they do work great when you put them where you should.

[Cabin4]

I think the Leverevolution ammo is geared for deer since most hunters are deer hunters.  Bear have a lot more muscle, fat, and fur to penetrate to vital areas.  Am I right in this assumption?

  Your "assumption is right, BUT it sounds like the bullets aren't expanding properly and a bear would make them expand "more" than if the same bullet hit an deer!  That is "if" the story is correct, as if you don't recover the animial, you really don't know how it was hit or what happened!

  DM

The more muscle (more resistance) should make for more expansion, not less. Depending on the size of the bear, it may not be enough to open and just pass thru like an arrow...

[teddy12b]

I was just thinking about making a post asking anyone if they had used 30-30 leverolution ammo on black bear and what their experience had been when I came across this thread.

I'll be hunting in Ontario in a couple weeks and even though I'll be using my encore 30-06 with handloaded 220 pro-hunters, I still debate on using my 30-30 with leverolution ammo.  30-30's have been taking bears for years and I was still thinking about trying it out.

As far as a 444 not killing a black bear....  I've never shot one, but I've seen the ammo and know it's within a hair of a 45/70.  If the guy was a good shot I don't doubt that he hit what he was aiming for, but was he aiming for the right spot?  I've looked at a lot of different diagrams showing a bears anatomy and it's a lot different than a deers and that's what most people are used to hunting.  There's no getting around that a 444 is a really really huge gun.  I just can't see well placed shots with a 444 inside of baited ranges not killing anything. 

[Cabin4]

Hard to believe he hit the bear in the boiler room. A 265 gr .429 bullet even if it never opens up  is going to do alot of damage on a black bear. I have seen bears taken with 25-06, 257 Roberts, etc. Very interesting though....

[Mikey]

teddy - if I was going to take a 30-30 on a black bear hunt I would forget about the new leveolrution ammo and stick with the plain old 170 gn flat nosed 30-30 round - I feel that hits harder and penetrates better than the pointed nose stuff.

NYHunter - I say the same about the new leverolution ammo in the 444 that I say about it in the 30-30.  The first shot your friend made could easily have veered off the rib cage, but with a lost animal you will never know.  Althought the points on that new ammo are supposed to 'enhance' expansion they may not expand at all without sufficient resistance. 

My preference in the 444s is for hard-cast, gas-checked flat nosed slugs.  I have never seen one fail and they bust on through heavy bone structure with definitive results - dead animal. 

Don't let your buddy go sour on the 444 - have him try different loads.  If he is sporting a 22" bbl then you must be talking about a Marlin.  If that Marlin carries a micro-groove barrel he might wish to consider bore lapping or fire lapping before using cast slugs.  Just about the two best sites in the world for information on the process and materials is Veral Smith's Forum here at Graybeards and the Beartooth Bullets website (add a www and a .com and you are there).  The 444 is more than capable of taking bear, but not with the wrong bullet.  Have your buddy try a different flavored slug, so to speak.  JMTCW.  Mikey.

[Cabin4]

My preference in the 444s is for hard-cast, gas-checked flat nosed slugs.  I have never seen one fail and they bust on through heavy bone structure with definitive results - dead animal. 

Don't let your buddy go sour on the 444 - have him try different loads. The 444 is more than capable of taking bear, but not with the wrong bullet.  Have your buddy try a different flavored slug, so to speak.  JMTCW.  Mikey.

Ditto....

Bullet selection in the 444 is critical. As I said earlier, for big game go with a hard cast bullet. WIth .429 diameter, not all that much need to worry about expansion.

[bearfat]

The second bear is the most confusing to me. I can see the bullet in the 1st bear traveling through and only nicking veins, arteries, and a lung and still allowing the bear to escape too far out to track.

But the second bullet is perplexing.

I will say this about a broadside I took on a bear at 35 yards. The shot was clear in a wide open shooting lane. It was a factory Nosler partition 180 grain. The bullet hit and did a ninety degree turn and I found the partition shaft of the bullet under the fur, top of the neck as I was skinning it. (I have it on video and was quite surprised)

The front half of the partition did it's job because I found lots of damage on the far chest wall. I called Nosler to complain and was informed they had a few complaints from the field.

So I do think it is possible it's the Hornady bullet doing some crazy things.

I'm assuming these were factory loads too which are probably "light." Might be they just need a little more powder to make them behave properly.   

[Bigwoods Hunter]

As an  bear outfitter in Manitoba , Canada , and an owner of a 444 Marlin , I would recommend using stock Remington 444 loads right out of the box with 240 grain jacketed soft points.  The black bear is a light skinned animal and is not hard to kill. As for tracking wounded  bears. Hunters forget one important detail . The bear is taught at a young age to escape danger to climb a tree. Yes wounded bears can climb trees and hang on for a while, and come down and back track in the direction they came from. Bears leave very little tracking sign for the experienced bear hunter/ tracker. Most mistakes a new bear hunter makes is trying to do the shoulder drop on the spot shot like on a deer. Not a good idea. The lungs are more forward on a bear and don't get fooled by that  long hair hanging under the chest for body mass. Before we let our hunters go out ,we put them through bear 101 and have them shoot at the range first.  I have seen nice bears shot through the lungs with a 270 and only go 5 feet. Shot placement is everthing. Good luck to all bear hunters and hope this saves wounded bears.  Russ Popp Bigwoods. 

[BBF]

I used 265 gr Hdy FN's almost exclusively in the 444. Moose and black bear, never had one get away. The gummy tips weren't around and the 240 gr Rem bullets opened up much too fast at close range for my liking.

[Redhawk1]

If the bear were not found, I would say they were bad hits, and not proper shot placement.  Bear are not hard to kill what so ever. If you hit the heart or lungs, the bear will die quickly.  I have seen people using everything from shotguns with lightfield slugs to 338 Federal with 200 gr. Hornady soft point bullets to a 45-70 with a 510 gr, hard cast bullet loose a bear. The reason was poor shot placement. After talking to the people, and them explaining the position of the bear and where they were aiming, it was oblivious they made a bad shot.

People always want to blame the gun or the bullet, when it is there shot placement that was the problem. I have seen where most people shoot to far back on black bear, or shoot through only one leg and never hit the vital area.

I always aim for the front leg or right up close to the front leg, I want to break down at least one leg and get into the heart or lungs. Every bear I have taken has not made it more than 25 yards from the point of impact of the shot. I have taken 3 bear with handguns, and 3 with a rifle, and my bullet of choice is a good hard cast bullet. I like 2 holes.

The Hornady LEVERevolution should of worked on his bear.

[Drilling Man]

I think the Leverevolution ammo is geared for deer since most hunters are deer hunters.  Bear have a lot more muscle, fat, and fur to penetrate to vital areas.  Am I right in this assumption?

  Your "assumption is right, BUT it sounds like the bullets aren't expanding properly and a bear would make them expand "more" than if the same bullet hit an deer!  That is "if" the story is correct, as if you don't recover the animial, you really don't know how it was hit or what happened!

  DM

The more muscle (more resistance) should make for more expansion, not less. Depending on the size of the bear, it may not be enough to open and just pass thru like an arrow...

  Just for the record...  I said and ment the "same thing" you did, i just said it poorly!  lol

  DM

[shinjin]

A 444 Marlin Lover here and I bought mine in case I go back for another black bear. I shot my first with a 50 cal JHP ober 150 grains of Blk Powder. Lots of punch and I nearly lost her. Had to walk her down for a second shot and still she ran off. The bluffing charges by her 2 yr old make cub made the old knees shaky I can tell you that!

Anyway, what I wanted to say was the placement of the shot was bad in both my tries. My first was placed right where I have dropped thirty years of white tails with. BAD CHOICE, no where enar a bear's vitals. Second shot at 15 yards was a little further back thanks to the guide slapping the back of my head and ordering me to shoot her floating ribs. She took the hit and dropped then stood up. I set a new land speed record for reloading a muzzle loader! But she staggered into the brush and we found her the next day.

Skinning her we found my first shot broke the off side shoulder but she still ran 50 yards and stood her ground when cornered. I wish I could run and stand to fight with a broke shoulder!

Second shot took out the vitals and she bleed out within minutes and only made another 20 yards.

Have seen some nasty wounds that bears have survived and while thin skinned they are too dumb and tought to accept they are dead, so they live through some bad mojo. If I go back I will use a 444 Marlin and won't fee bad with Leverrevolution or solid point bullets. Tell you podjna to study bear anatomy for quartering shots. He probably just missed the vitals and lost his wounded game.

BUT if he doesn't want the 444 I DO!!!!!