Author Topic: Shouldn't We Be taking Heed...?????  (Read 3503 times)

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Offline powderman

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Re: Shouldn't We Be taking Heed...?????
« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2007, 02:17:51 PM »
ROCKBILLY. None of the cults you mentioned teaches, or preaches death to all that don't agree with them, only the muslims. Good muslims??? Where??? The Godless scum who murdered 3,000 Americans were good muslims. Several of them had lived here for years. They had jobs, made friends, even had American girlfriends. They were sleepers, I'm sure there are thousands more just like them here right now, awaiting orders to murder Americans. Are the good muslims protesting the murder of innocents by their brothers???? No, they are not. They secretly rejoice every time a non muslim is murdered. The good muslims right here in America danced in the streets right after 9-11-01. What kind of person rejoices when a Jewish baby is murdered??? A muslim. What kind of person cheers when a bus load of Jewish school children is blown up??? A muslim. Even the good ones support the actions of the terrorists with their silence. My own neices stated that the murders by the Godless ones on 9-11-01 was justified. They are no longer welcome in my home. They have been completely indoctrinated by their Godless friends. Sorry my friend, I know of no good muslims.
TM7. Your leave em alone strategy is ridiculous. We didn't bother them on 9-11-01, they attacked us. We are in a war of good vs evil, God vs satan himself. This is a war we MUST win. They attacked us, and fight we must. Contrary to the dumcrap controlled news media, we are winning and have helped make a difference in the lives of the iraquis. No mention of the clean water we have provided, or the schools built, or hospitols, or medical clinics or the people we have rescued from their torture chambers, just to name a few. The feedback we get from our soldiers our church supports reads nothing like the world news we get. WHY??? The dumcraps and libs want America to fail and undermine GW every step of the way. They would rather see America go under, if only they can have control.
Now for the Planned parenting clinics?? I think thats what I read. Slaughterhouse is a more appropriate term. There are no drs or nurses there either, only butchers. Pro choice always means death for a baby. There are only two choices, life, or death. You either have a baby, or you kill it. Simple as that, there is no in between. Life, or death, thats it. I can almost see those butchers and their accomplices, and the unrepentent would have been mothers on judgement day. UHHHHHHH, you mean that was a baby I murdered??? Gosh, I didn't know, DUHHHHH.  Roe vs wade was the very start of the moral decline in America, the dumcrap party is a prime example of what happens when God is left out of our lives. Rant over for now. POWDERMAN.  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline ironglow

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Re: Shouldn't We Be taking Heed...?????
« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2007, 02:27:37 PM »
Powderman;

   A hearty Amen !
  I agree, the truth we are getting from the real Iraqi veterans coming home is different than the 4 sewer systems of this country (ABC, NBC, CBS & CNN) are feeding the people.
  It appears that your (probably small) church has provided quite a number of warriors to this fight..as my small, country church has..
   Not trying to put anyone down..but it seems that an inordinately larger part statistically, of this war's combat is being fought by 2 kinds of folks the (2 C's)....Christian & country..most often combined..
  I am personal friends with so very many who have served and /or are serving in this conflict: then I actually meet some who have NO family and NO friends who are serving.

  Yet...These seem to be the ones that think they know more and in more detail, about this war than the rest of us !...LOL

   Rockbilly;
   Yes, those cults that you mentioned do seem bothersome at times..some even to the point of being obnoxious..but I will defend the first amendment along with the second...and all the rest.
 
    The guys in the orange (saffron) robes are a bit of a bore..but they offer what they have and then move on..
Same with those that come to the door..two-by-two..they try to win you over, then walk away...

   None of them are going to bomb you, your house or business if you don't "convert".. nor will they take your brother-in-law captive and saw his head off to boost their TV ratings..
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline gypsyman

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Re: Shouldn't We Be taking Heed...?????
« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2007, 02:50:45 PM »
We are fighting a religion, a belief. There is no boundary on land, that we can put a perspective on this. We went into Iraq, because for over 10 years, intelligence reports said,WMD. Saddam was helping fund and train terrorists. Well, excuse me for using this as an example, but if the police dept. went up to a drug dealers house, knocked on the door, and said, we're here to check for drugs, and he said, come back later, and they did, over and over again, for years, don't you think that he would move the drugs. That's exactly what Iraq did. There out there, somewhere, Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, Afghanistan. Some place. And you can bet, that given the chance, they will use them! As far as us provoking them, seems I can't remember us provoking them before the 1972 Olympics in Germany, Marine Corp barracks in Lebanon, first Trade Center bombing, U.S.S Cole. Our problem is, some of us still have our heads stuck up some orifice of the body, and havn't woke up to the fact, these people want to KILL US!! And I repeat-WE keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41) and especially(9/11/01) gypsyman
We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41)(9/11/01) gypsyman

Offline nomosendero

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Re: Shouldn't We Be taking Heed...?????
« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2007, 04:21:16 PM »
gypsyman

Good post & good comparison with the drug dealer. We ALL know he had them, but it is something for Libs to cry about.
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

Offline powderman

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Re: Shouldn't We Be taking Heed...?????
« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2007, 04:32:49 PM »
GYPSYMAN. You're right, satans army has no boundary. There are few nations in this world that are not under attack by these Godless, subhuman, scum. They live to kill. They seem to thrive on the blood of innocents. Satans handbook, their koran, tells them that lying to infidels, you and me, is acceptable to allah for the good of islam. They can't be trusted, so no amount of talking will solve anything, and treaties are worthless. These Godless scum are no more than satans disciples. They are as mad dogs and their mosques are their lairs where hatred and death are preached, taught, and learned. POWDERMAN.  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline ironglow

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Re: Shouldn't We Be taking Heed...?????
« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2007, 01:54:49 AM »
  TM7;
  Of course not all Jews are Zionists..a Zionist is one who desires a homeland for the Jews..who were evicted from their homeland by Titus in 70 AD..
  Frankly, I cannot understand any Jew that doesn't want a homeland for their people...but that's OK .   Is one to think that they would like to wear the sobriquet of " wandering Jew" for all time ?

  Before 1948..that place some call Palestine, (a Roman term, placed upon the area after the Romans trashed Jerusalem and environs in 70 AD) ...was simply a wasteland. A few Arabs lived there and a few remaining Jews also. The land was not well cultivated, and a primitive civilization was about the best it could boast.
  When the Jews returned and made it once more into "the land of milk & honey"..then Arabs from around the region wanted a piece of the pie. Many of those Arab families still live in Israel and work peaceably, for as much as they wish and are willing to.

   If a person of Jewish heritage is not interested in a homeland, why not just "butt out" ?

  Just suppose... there were some old will found from my family and my brother wanted to pursue it to get whatever he could..and I was not interested in doing so. It would be my proper position to say "go ahead and good luck..but I am going to pass on this one !".
  As we look at a map of  North Africa & the middle east we see little Israel, surrounded by Muslim nations on all sides. The total land area of these Muslim nations is 500 times that of the land area of Israel. There cannot be found anywhere in that vast area where the so-called "refugees" in Palestine, Lebanon & Gaza could be taken in ?
   If the Muslim nations around Israel were somewhat smart and not so stubborn, they would do well to make a decent peace with this small nation (1/500th their size) and then ask the Jews just how they managed to take a wasteland and make a viable, busy, productive nation out of it..rather than to listen to hate-filled, medieval mullahs.
   
   It is only common sense, learn from you intellectual betters..don't look for wisdom where none exists.

  BTW: Why do Christians back a state of Israel ? Read the parable of the fig tree ..
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline powderman

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Re: Shouldn't We Be taking Heed...?????
« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2007, 02:33:59 AM »
In the back of my Bible there are several maps. One of them shows the original land that God gave them. I believe 4 other nations now claim a good portion of the land God originally gave them. Their Northern boundary was just short of Damascus. I'd love to see Israel retake what God gave them. I have no pity for the palestinians, if they got what they deserve, they'd all be gone. Like the rest of the Godless ones, they exist only to kill innocents. They fired over 140 missles into Israel a week or so ago, but the news media focused on the air strikes by Israel as they were defending themselves. The only solution to Israels woes, being surrounded and outnumbered by the Godless ones, is to return to their old ways. To heck with being pc and trying to appease the world. Kill their sworn enemies, or beat them into submission. I'll be gone a few days, so carry on. POWDERMAN.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline billy_56081

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Re: Shouldn't We Be taking Heed...?????
« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2007, 02:56:02 AM »
The blame America first crowd makes me ill.
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline Dee

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Re: Shouldn't We Be taking Heed...?????
« Reply #38 on: June 03, 2007, 03:10:23 AM »
Although I am a freedom loving American, let us look into our own closet of skeletons. I will leave the genecide of the American Indian, and slavery where they belong. In the past. BUT!
What about the 44,000,000 and a still counting murders we have committed since Roe vs Wade. Oh yea, I am talking about abortion. We have literally killed, and still are, killing our future work force. These murders out number most all of the killing mentioned in the above posts combined, yet we claim to have moral high ground. Do you think these murder victims would agree?
Also, when 15 Saudies, 1 Egyptian, 1 Jordainian, and a couple others went to Afganistan, and trained for 911, with financial aid from the Saudie's, why did we attact Iraq, whom had no part in 911? Oh yes, I am sure they cheered but, that is not a crime. We do it when a dictator in another country falls.
When one is throwing bones out into someone else's living room, one should make sure that one's own closet is clean first. Ours is not. Perhaps we as a nation we are being punished for our own self-righteousness. While I would agree with Brett that Islam is a growing threat, and will, and has destroyed many nations. What about our own shame. One can be quick to point fingers at wrong doing, but one should be careful he is not looking into a mirror when doing so. It could be embarassing, when the rest of the world is watching. JMO.

I have never thought I had to comment on my own comments before, as I usually think they are quite clear to the rational man. However, let me expand on this thought as some took it and seemed to have ran in the wrong direction.
I stand by my above comments, but let me expand to be perhaps more clearly. I believe Brett is dead on in his thoughts, and that Islam is THE most deadly threat to not just our country but, the world. Although ALL muslims do not seem to be violent, I have seen almost NONE of these peaceful ones denouncing the violence by the so called radicals.
Historically they (the muslim) are a direct desendant of Abram (later to be renamed Abraham by God himself), and his liason with a hand maid by the name of Hagar. This liason caused the birth (out of wedlock) of Ishmael whom, as a young man began causing trouble in the family. He and his mother Hagar were banished from the family, and later in history Mohammad desended from this line of Ishamael.
Now I understand that this is not a Bible forum and I am not trying to turn it into one, but this is History concerning the religion you are talking about here, and this is where the trouble started, and it WILL continue to grow worse as time passes. If you choose not to believe this little bit of history then so be it but, as someone once said; FORGET HISTORY AND YOU WILL BE CONDEMED TO REPEAT IT.
Now back to my original point on my original post. Yes, the muslim is a threat, and to the others, yes they are a peaceful bunch IN SMALL NUMBERS. HOWEVER, they ARE hiding in this country under the freedom of religion laws this goverment provides, and ARE RECRUITING our youth. WHY?
Because we have as a nation ABANDONED the moral principals this country was founded on, i.e. GOD, and HIS COMMANDENTS!
When you as an individual are truly attempting to please God, i.e. walk in His light ( i.e. the Word), you as an individual will be blessed, and the same is true with a nation.
We AS A NATION (I am not talking about every individual) have focused our desires on SPORTS, SEX, AND PERSONAL GRATIFICATION. Our youth, and many of the older group no longer vote, and have the "ME" attitude of if it doesn't affect me, "WHO CARES".
We have as a result, became appathetic to the world's problems, blaming them on the world, and taking no responsibilty of our own. In a moral sense my mother once made what I consider a profound statement about our moral condition today, when she said; Now a days when a young woman dresses provocatively, they say; She's HOT! They used to say; She's CHEAP!
We complain on this forum, and others about our own goverments treachery toward it's own citizens, in regard to issues such as gun control and so on but, seem to give them a free roll in their dealings with other countries.
The jest of the entire point is; If you were standing on a street corner staggering drunk, would you listen to a lecture on the evils of drinking from a drunk whom was obviously drunker on a more frequent scale than you were at the time of the lecture? Of course not.
This is the point. We slaughter our young in clinics, we watch our youth space themselves out on drugs, dress like hookers, and unmade beds, and we condone goverment wrong doing as long as it doesn't affect US, and we AS A NATION are so appathetic most do not even vote. They just complain. Are we so naive to think that other countries do not see this also. Perhaps, if we regained our MORAL HIGH GROUND, we would be able to better lead BY EXAMPLE. JMTCW 
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline nomosendero

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Re: Shouldn't We Be taking Heed...?????
« Reply #39 on: June 03, 2007, 04:56:00 AM »
Very good post & like your first post, not single issue at all.
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

Offline ironglow

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Re: Shouldn't We Be taking Heed...?????
« Reply #40 on: June 03, 2007, 08:23:47 AM »
   
  TODAY.. authorities are searching the island of Trinidad. looking for the terrorist leader that led a gang that was plotting to soon blow up JFK airport and part of the Bronx..
 
  Some of the same gang of Muslims that tried to stage a coup on the govt of Trinidad in 1990..guess Trinidad's great offense against Muslims was that they didn't hand over the island to the Mullahs without resisting...

   TODAY..A Muslim stupid-cide bomber tried to assassinate the president of Somalia with his explosive filled car...

    Just the usual Sunday School Class hi-jinks I guess !
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Sourdough

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Re: Shouldn't We Be taking Heed...?????
« Reply #41 on: June 03, 2007, 10:16:56 AM »
How quickly people forget.  No WMD found!  No, I wonder what was on all those trucks that for weeks going to Syria contained?  After the war started, if you will remember they showed a semi-truck on it's way to Syria, that had been hit and burned.  That truck was a rolling lab, capable of producing WMD.   Also they found war heads in a bunker filled with nerve agents.  That's not WMD? 

So I feel that we were justified going into Iraq.  I also feel that GW messed up at the start by making enimies of the common Iraqi solder.  Cullen Powel advised against it but they did it anyway, they fired all the Iragi army and disbanded them.  The soldiers were not loyal to Saddam, and would have readilly accepted new leadership.  Given new direction and guidence from a new democraticly elected  Iraqi President, we could now be out of the country with only an observation force there.

As for the battle reguarding religion, it's been going on since Biblical times and will not stop till one side totally wipes out the others.  So far all it has done is kill a lot of people, and push each other back and forth.  In the past it had been confined to the Middle East and Southern Europe.  Now it's gone global.  Still the same fight, just on a bigger scale.  All sides feel they are right, and their side should win, but it is an unwinable war for all sides. 
Where is old Joe when we really need him?  Alaska Independence    Calling Illegal Immigrants "Undocumented Aliens" is like calling Drug Dealers "Unlicensed Pharmacists"
What Is A Veteran?
A 'Veteran' -- whether active duty, discharged, retired, or reserve -- is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America,' for an amount of 'up to, and including his life.' That is honor, and there are way too many people in this country today who no longer understand that fact.

Offline Dee

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Re: Shouldn't We Be taking Heed...?????
« Reply #42 on: June 03, 2007, 03:06:41 PM »
Pakistan, India, Russia, China, England, France, most of the old Soviet Union, and of course WE, have weapons of mass destruction. I suppose when we're done straightening out Iraq, we need to get on these other 6 or 7 mentioned. I mean, isn't it OUR place to decide who gets WMD's? We after all, are the only nation in the right. Right? That's why so many other nations love us so.
Iraq has been spun so many times by the White House I don't think even they can remember all the excuses we used to attack a nation whom had NEVER attacked us.
Hey! The Virgin Islands might SOMEDAY rebel. Let's go ahead and attack them now for what they MIGHT do someday.
Credibility is getting harder and harder to come by in D.C.
It is truly amazing how almost 75% of Americans agree that Iraq was a mistake made thru bad info, and false evidence, yet a small percentage hangs on to the lie, when watching the same news releases as the other 70% or so do. How can so few be right when so many disagree, and with both viewing the same news releases?
Another amazing observation is that there is NOT ONE democratic goverment in ANY Islamic nation. Their (the Muslim's) THEOCRACY will not permit it, yet D.C. with GW in the lead, followed by so called in the know IDEALISTS, insist that because D.C. has WILLED IT, Islam will roll over and accept democracy when never in history has it before.
Dream on gentlemen, we'll wake you when it's over.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline alsaqr

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Re: Shouldn't We Be taking Heed...?????
« Reply #43 on: June 04, 2007, 02:11:20 AM »
Islam has been in turmoil against all other religions and peoples since the very beginning.  Almost immediately there was  turmoil within Islam.  The people who now make up the Shiites believed way back then that the Angel Gabriel goofed up and talked with the wrong guy.  They say he was supposed to talk with Ali.  Then it all gets more goofy.  They believe that one of the Caliphs who disappeared about 1500 years ago is still alive and will return as the Madhi.  This is why the armed pukes who support Muktar al Sadr call themselves the Madhi army. 

Offline alsaqr

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Re: Shouldn't We Be taking Heed...?????
« Reply #44 on: June 04, 2007, 02:20:33 AM »
"followed by so called in the know IDEALISTS, insist that because D.C. has WILLED IT, Islam will roll over and accept democracy when never in history has it before."

There has never been any tradition of "democracy" in the Middle East and there is never going to be any lasting "democracy" in the Middle East.  This war is being spun from DC.  Here is what some junior US army officers think of the Iraqi army.  These are they guys on the ground doing the dirty work. 

Mahdi Army gains strength through unwitting aid of U.S.
By Tom Lasseter
McClatchy Newspapers

"BAGHDAD, Iraq - The U.S. military drive to train and equip Iraq's security forces has unwittingly strengthened anti-American Shiite Muslim cleric Muqtada al-Sadr's Mahdi Army militia, which has been battling to take over much of the capital city as American forces are trying to secure it.


U.S. Army commanders and enlisted men who are patrolling east Baghdad, which is home to more than half the city's population and the front line of al-Sadr's campaign to drive rival Sunni Muslims from their homes and neighborhoods, said al-Sadr's militias had heavily infiltrated the Iraqi police and army units that they've trained and armed.


"Half of them are JAM. They'll wave at us during the day and shoot at us during the night," said 1st Lt. Dan Quinn, a platoon leader in the Army's 1st Infantry Division, using the initials of the militia's Arabic name, Jaish al Mahdi. "People (in America) think it's bad, but that we control the city. That's not the way it is. They control it, and they let us drive around. It's hostile territory."


The Bush administration's plan to secure Baghdad rests on a "surge" of some 17,000 more U.S. troops to the city, many of whom will operate from small bases throughout Baghdad. Those soldiers will work to improve Iraqi security units so that American forces can hand over control of the area and withdraw to the outskirts of the city.


The problem, many soldiers said, is that the approach has been tried before and resulted only in strengthening al-Sadr and his militia.


Amid recurring reports that al-Sadr is telling his militia leaders to stash their arms and, in some cases, leave their neighborhoods during the American push, U.S. soldiers worry that the latest plan could end up handing over those areas to units that are close to al-Sadr's militant Shiite group.


"All the Shiites have to do is tell everyone to lay low, wait for the Americans to leave, then when they leave you have a target list and within a day they'll kill every Sunni leader in the country. It'll be called the `Day of Death' or something like that," said 1st Lt. Alain Etienne, 34, of Brooklyn, N.Y. "They say, `Wait, and we will be victorious.' That's what they preach. And it will be their victory."




Quinn agreed.


"Honestly, within six months of us leaving, the way Iranian clerics run the country behind the scenes, it'll be the same way here with Sadr," said Quinn, 25, of Cleveland. "He already runs our side of the river."




Four senior American military representatives in Baghdad declined requests for comment.


Al-Sadr's success in infiltrating Iraqi security forces says much about the continued inability of American commanders in Iraq to counter the classic insurgent tactic of using popular support to trump superior military firepower. Lacking attack helicopters and other sophisticated weapons, al-Sadr's men have expanded their empire with borrowed trucks and free lunches for militiamen.


After U.S. units pounded al-Sadr's men in August 2004, the cleric apparently decided that instead of facing American tanks, he'd use the Americans' plans to build Iraqi security forces to rebuild his own militia.


So while Iraq's other main Shiite militia, the Badr Brigade, concentrated in 2005 on packing Iraqi intelligence bureaus with high-level officers who could coordinate sectarian assassinations, al-Sadr went after the rank and file.


His recruits began flooding into the Iraqi army and police, receiving training, uniforms and equipment either directly from the U.S. military or from the American-backed Iraqi Defense Ministry.


The infiltration by al-Sadr's men, coupled with his strength in Iraq's parliament after U.S.-backed elections, gave him leeway to operate death squads throughout the capital, according to more than a week of interviews with American soldiers patrolling Baghdad. Some U.S.-trained units carried out sectarian killings themselves, while others, manning checkpoints, allowed militiamen to pass.


Al-Sadr's gunmen got another boost in 2005 and 2006 when American commanders handed over many Baghdad neighborhoods east of the Tigris River to Iraqi units, transitions that often were accompanied by news releases that contained variations of the phrase "Iraqis in the lead."


"There's been a lot of push to transition to Iraqis so you can show progress, but have you secured the area?" said Capt. Aaron Kaufman, a Washington, Iowa, native who works for a unit that acts as a liaison between U.S. and Iraqi forces in the Shiite enclave of Kadhamiya, across the river from east Baghdad. "I think the political pressure has hurt. ... You're wishing away, you're assuming away enemy activity, and you hurt yourself doing that."




In hindsight, many American officers said there was too much pressure to give Iraqi army units their own areas of operation, a process that left Iraqi soldiers outmanned, outgunned and easy targets for infiltration and coercion.


"There was a decision ... that was probably made prematurely," said Lt. Col. Eric Schacht, a 42-year-old battalion commander in east Baghdad from Glen Mills, Pa. "I think we jumped the gun a little bit."




Al-Sadr's militia has taken advantage of the chaos.


Iraqi soldiers, for example, often were pushed into the field by Iraqi commanders who didn't give them adequate food, clothing or shelter, said Etienne, a 1st Infantry Division platoon leader.


Etienne was on patrol one day when he saw Iraqi soldiers eating fresh vegetables and meat. The afternoon before, the same soldiers had complained that they had only scraps of food left. Who'd brought them their meal? It had come courtesy of Muqtada al-Sadr.


"Who's feeding the Iraqi army? Nobody. So JAM will come around and give them food and water," Etienne said. "We try to capture hearts and minds, well, JAM has done that. They're further along than us."


There's been ample evidence - despite claims to the contrary by American and Iraqi officials - that the death-squad activity isn't isolated to a few troops loyal to al-Sadr.


In the southeastern Baghdad neighborhood of Zafrainyah, an entire national police brigade was sent to be retrained last year- and much of its leadership was replaced - after its officers kidnapped 24 Sunnis, took them to a meat-processing plant and killed them.




Last month, four members of a neighborhood council in Etienne's sector - a mixed Sunni-Shiite area that abuts an al-Sadr stronghold - were leaving a meeting when national police trucks pulled up and men in Iraqi military uniforms piled out.


They grabbed the four men in broad daylight. One of the council members struggled. He was shot in the head and left to die on the street.


The remaining three were blindfolded and driven to a house. One of the four, a Shiite, listened as his two Sunni colleagues begged for their lives between beatings.


"They were pistol-whipping them and kicking them," Etienne said. "Finally, he heard the sound of a drill."


When the man's blindfold was taken off, he found that he was covered with the blood of his two friends, who were slumped over dead with drill holes in their heads.


"It was (al-Sadr's militia). They were trying to figure out who's who, and killing Sunnis," Etienne said. "They borrowed the vehicles from their friends in the Iraqi army and police who are Mahdi-affiliated."


A patrol from Etienne's company stopped by a Sunni neighborhood in east Baghdad last week. Two days earlier, three 60 mm mortar rounds fired from a nearby Shiite area, presumably by al-Sadr's militiamen, had hit a group of children who were playing on a rooftop. Two children died, and another lost most of a leg. A funeral tent stood empty in the middle of the street.


A soldier with a U.S. Army tactical human-intelligence team - who goes only by his last name, Brady, because of the sensitivity of his work - gathered a group of Sunni men to ask about neighborhood security.


One of the men, who said his name was Abbas al Dulaimi, asked, "When the Mahdi Army comes here, why does the Iraqi army help them shoot people?"


"I was behind a car at the checkpoint on the bridge. I saw an Iraqi army soldier open the trunk," said another man, who gave only his first name, Ahmed. "There were two men in there. The driver showed the soldier his Mahdi Army ID, and the soldier saluted him and let him drive away."


Brady didn't contradict any of the accounts. He took careful notes, shaking his head sympathetically at their stories of an Iraqi army gone astray.


He handed out a business card with a cell phone number to call in case of another Mahdi Army attack.


"We will send Iraqi army units that we trust," Brady said.


Abbas al Dulaimi stared at Brady, a blond man sitting in a circle of Iraqis, and spoke as if he were explaining something to a child.


"But if the Mahdi Army comes in here," Abbas al Dulaimi said, "they will come with the support of the Iraqi army."





http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/16600612.htm


Offline gypsyman

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Re: Shouldn't We Be taking Heed...?????
« Reply #45 on: June 04, 2007, 03:00:03 AM »
Dee, your right, there is no democracy in an Islamic nation. But it sure seemed to me that alot of Iraq's went out and voted a couple of years ago. Does that mean that the country is changing, maybe. And if the Virgin Islands starts training terrorists, yea, bomb the hell out of them.(I want beach patrol !!)
What were we suppose to do after 9/11 ?? Slap on some KY and do a dog and pony show ?? Funny, seems like that is what we had been doing, nothing. Do we stand up as a nation and do something, or learn how to wave a white flag like France? Except in this case, out enemies are going to kill us anyhow, white flag or not.
As far as WMD's, anybody driving a car has a WMD. Pressurize the gas tank, couple of propane tanks in the trunk, park it at a busy mall. Bingo !! WMD here. It's no different that gun control, it's who has the gun. Police, honest citizens, soldiers. These people use a gun in self defense, not out attacking people that didn't do anything, or deserve to be attacked. The next time an attack happens on our soil, I can just hear people say, how come this happened, why didn't the govt. do anything about it. Well, at least G.W. is trying to do something. Don't like to see people die, but 3,000 did on 9/11. We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work !!REMEMBER (12/7/41) (9/11/01) gypsyman
We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41)(9/11/01) gypsyman

Offline Dee

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Re: Shouldn't We Be taking Heed...?????
« Reply #46 on: June 04, 2007, 04:14:16 AM »
Dee, your right, there is no democracy in an Islamic nation. But it sure seemed to me that alot of Iraq's went out and voted a couple of years ago. Does that mean that the country is changing, maybe. And if the Virgin Islands starts training terrorists, yea, bomb the hell out of them.(I want beach patrol !!)
What were we suppose to do after 9/11 ?? Slap on some KY and do a dog and pony show ?? Funny, seems like that is what we had been doing, nothing. Do we stand up as a nation and do something, or learn how to wave a white flag like France? Except in this case, out enemies are going to kill us anyhow, white flag or not.
As far as WMD's, anybody driving a car has a WMD. Pressurize the gas tank, couple of propane tanks in the trunk, park it at a busy mall. Bingo !! WMD here. It's no different that gun control, it's who has the gun. Police, honest citizens, soldiers. These people use a gun in self defense, not out attacking people that didn't do anything, or deserve to be attacked. The next time an attack happens on our soil, I can just hear people say, how come this happened, why didn't the govt. do anything about it. Well, at least G.W. is trying to do something. Don't like to see people die, but 3,000 did on 9/11. We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work !!REMEMBER (12/7/41) (9/11/01) gypsyman

So gypsyman what your saying is after 911, we should have gone out and attacked somebody. ANYBODY! Because that's what we did. I don't recall suggesting laying down at anypoint in my posts. I beleive the KEY ISSUE is Credibilty! I REPEAT! 911 was perpetrated by 15 SAUDIS, and 1 or 2 Jordanians, and maybe an Egyptian. They TRAINED IN AFGHANISTAN, and they were FINANCED BY SAUDI ARABIA. So we attacked Iraq? The concept is non-sensical. Sure we should have cleaned out Afghanistan and the world was behind us and helped us, and still are to a point. BUT IRAQ?
If your brother brings his dog over to your house and the dog bites you kid, are you going to shoot your neighbor's dog for the offense? That's what we have done in this case, like it or not, believe it or not, D.C. needs a geography lesson, and a moral wakeup call.
Just this morning on FOX NEWS (you know the fair and balanced one ::)) Russia is threatening to point nukes at Europe because of our plans of missile DEFENSE in the region. Our government has know CREDIBILITY, and we are holding hands with the enemy, and telling the American public they are our friends. The American public isn't buying it anymore. Well, maybe a few still are.
You, like GW believe it is alright to jump on somebody you don't trust, before they even threaten you. The government wants to dis-arm you as an American because they don't trust you, and you are against that, BUT, it is ok by you if the same government tells OTHER COUNTRIES, they cannot arm themselves in the same way America is armed to protect themselves. Kind of a double standard don't you think? It's NOT ok for them to dis-arm you but, it IS ok for them to dis-arm someone else? Hmmmmmmm

And as for the hypothetical on the Virgin Islands, I said rebel against the U.S. not train terrorists. That was your spin to justify the assault on them. When a country doesn't agree with the U.S., we are not authorized or obligated to invade and change the country's way of thinking. Their disagreement does not necessarily make them wrong. Just different. I have Bermudda grass for a lawn, and my neighbor has Saint Augustine grass. Bermudda is better. He MUST CHANGE or suffer the consequences.
As far as the voting in Iraq. When a pig flys over Baghdad, they will be a democracy, I will ride the pig.  ::)
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline alsaqr

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Re: Shouldn't We Be taking Heed...?????
« Reply #47 on: June 04, 2007, 07:42:42 AM »
"I REPEAT! 911 was perpetrated by 15 SAUDIS, and 1 or 2 Jordanians, and maybe an Egyptian. They TRAINED IN AFGHANISTAN, and they were FINANCED BY SAUDI ARABIA. So we attacked Iraq? The concept is non-sensical. Sure we should have cleaned out Afghanistan and the world was behind us and helped us, and still are to a point. BUT IRAQ?"

Good post.  Worked in Saudi for seven years trying to train Saudi military.  It was all one big joke.  Saudi troops often told us outright:  "Why do we have to train in the hot sun, the US will defend us because we have oil?"   Then Bush I made it come true.   Saudi continues to export Islamic terrorism even as they fight al Queda at home.  After 9/11 Saudi was called "a kernel of evil" in a study of a government funded think tank.  The Bush White House ran quickly denied the report. 

After 9/11 when all aircraft were grounded, dozens of members of the bin Laden family were allowed to leave the country.  Why?

 
Saudi Arabia is kernel of evil, says US brief
By David Rennie in Washington
Last Updated: 11:36pm BST 06/08/2002


"Washington's growing distrust in Saudi Arabia spilled into the open yesterday with the leak of a Pentagon briefing describing Saudi Arabia as "the kernel of evil" that should be ordered to stop backing terrorists or face the seizure of its overseas assets.

The briefing to the Defence Policy Board - which includes former generals, defence secretaries and statesmen including Henry Kissinger - runs contrary to official US policy towards Saudi Arabia.

Donald Rumsfeld, the defence secretary, quickly distanced the Bush administration from its contents, which were written by an analyst from the Rand Corporation, a think-tank with longstanding links to the US military.

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According to the Washington Post newspaper, which was handed leaked sections, the briefing stated: "The Saudis are active at every level of the terror chain, from planners to financiers, from cadre to foot-soldier, from ideologist to cheerleader."

Mr Rumsfeld said yesterday that it was "unfortunate" that a classified briefing by an outside analyst had been leaked.

"Everyone has a right to their opinion. [The briefing] did not represent the views of the government. It didn't represent the views of the Defence Policy Board."

Noting that most of the September 11 hijackers came from Saudi Arabia, Mr Rumsfeld said the Saudi government was "wrestling" with a number of issues.

He added: "Saudi Arabia is like any other country. It has a broad spectrum of activities, some of which obviously, just like our country, that we agree with, and some we may not.

"It is nonetheless a country where we have a lot of forces located, and we have had a long relationship.""

 
 

Offline Dee

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Re: Shouldn't We Be taking Heed...?????
« Reply #48 on: June 04, 2007, 07:58:33 AM »
Good point I have not mentioned in a while. The day of 911 two planes that were not military were allowed to fly over U.S. soil. Air Force One, and a plane spiriting the Bin Laden family out of the U.S. WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!
Many will ignore such FACTS, and blindly follow government believing it makes them more patriotic than those who question things that make no sense.
As the comic Earl Pitts American likes to say; WAKE UP AMERICA!
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Sourdough

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Re: Shouldn't We Be taking Heed...?????
« Reply #49 on: June 04, 2007, 08:54:42 AM »
DEE:  Correction Air Force One is a military airplane, owned by the US Air Force and flowen by US Air Force Pilots.  Therefore it is a military plane.  Hence the name "AIR FORCE ONE".  And it can be any Air Force airplane that the Presadent is aboard.

There is one Islamic country that has a democratic government.  Their constatution states that if the civilian government goes too far in one direction or the other from their constitutional bounds the military takes over and holds new elections.  It's been working now since 1921, following the fall of the Ottoman Empire at the end of WW-I.  The country is predominately Islamic, but there is large amounts of Christians, and Jews, there as well.  All living in relative peace, getting along well and phrospering compared to other countries like Afganistan, and Iran.  If Lebanon could get rid of the Hesbulla factions their Christian and Muslum populations get along pretty good as well. 
Where is old Joe when we really need him?  Alaska Independence    Calling Illegal Immigrants "Undocumented Aliens" is like calling Drug Dealers "Unlicensed Pharmacists"
What Is A Veteran?
A 'Veteran' -- whether active duty, discharged, retired, or reserve -- is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America,' for an amount of 'up to, and including his life.' That is honor, and there are way too many people in this country today who no longer understand that fact.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Shouldn't We Be taking Heed...?????
« Reply #50 on: June 04, 2007, 10:29:12 AM »
face reality America has tried to be everything for everybody for so long in the name of securing the VOTE we don't know what or who we are anymore , we don't stand for the same morals or values we once did !
right or wrong the Muslims do their deeds in the name of Allah and God , They believe in what they do brain washed or not !
we as a country need to get our political system straight before we wish it on the world !
If we slip anymore we will lose all respect , we have thrown wisdom to the wind !

If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Dee

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Re: Shouldn't We Be taking Heed...?????
« Reply #51 on: June 04, 2007, 01:46:02 PM »
DEE:  Correction Air Force One is a military airplane, owned by the US Air Force and flowen by US Air Force Pilots.  Therefore it is a military plane.  Hence the name "AIR FORCE ONE".  And it can be any Air Force airplane that the Presadent is aboard.

There is one Islamic country that has a democratic government.  Their constatution states that if the civilian government goes too far in one direction or the other from their constitutional bounds the military takes over and holds new elections.  It's been working now since 1921, following the fall of the Ottoman Empire at the end of WW-I.  The country is predominately Islamic, but there is large amounts of Christians, and Jews, there as well.  All living in relative peace, getting along well and phrospering compared to other countries like Afganistan, and Iran.  If Lebanon could get rid of the Hesbulla factions their Christian and Muslum populations get along pretty good as well. 

I was and am aware that Air Force One is Military, i.e. AIR FORCE ONE. I was speaking of combat air craft. I suppose one must weigh ones every word. And what is the name of this ISLAMIC country which is a democracy? I apparently have not heard of it, and also I am not speaking of one that has an Islamic population. We have an Islamic population here in the U.S. I am speaking of an Islamic nation. In a truly Islamic nation, Christians will be few and far between.
As far as Lebanon, if my old and cluttered mind recalls correctly Lebanon has been a powder keg for half a century plus that I have been alive. They have allowed Hezbollah to operate freely in Lebanon for years.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline billy_56081

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Re: Shouldn't We Be taking Heed...?????
« Reply #52 on: June 04, 2007, 02:14:14 PM »
Turkey.
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline Dee

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Re: Shouldn't We Be taking Heed...?????
« Reply #53 on: June 04, 2007, 02:23:36 PM »
Do you seriously consider Turkey a democracy?  ::) :D
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Shouldn't We Be taking Heed...?????
« Reply #54 on: June 04, 2007, 02:31:41 PM »
Turkey is democratic as long as they stay in line and that democratic vote is in favor of Islamic law !I guess they are democratic just not to much so ! Then if you listen to the way people say they vote vs, the laws our leaders pass we must operate somewhat the same ! That's right we have a federalist govt not  a democratic govt.so  laws can be passed in-spite of public opinion , for our own good !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Dee

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Re: Shouldn't We Be taking Heed...?????
« Reply #55 on: June 04, 2007, 02:48:19 PM »
I would hardly call Turkey democratic as they are theocratic. Their law is based on Islamic theocracy. Compare women's rights, non- muslim's rights and so on with these same rights of these two groups in America, and then call them a democracy. Sorry guys, I think your really reachin on that one. But, so is GW, as he claims that Iraq will be democratic under muslim theocracy. Ain't gonna happen, because muslim law will not allow it. One of my favorite sayings that my boys have had to listen to when they would come up with some out of context idea was; You can put a dog collar on a coyote, and call him Spot, but you best not put him in charge of watchin the sheep. Regardless of what you call him, or how you dress him, he's still a coyote.
You can call Turkey a democracy if you want to but, their policy, AND ACTIONS on individual human rights will say otherwise.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Shouldn't We Be taking Heed...?????
« Reply #56 on: June 04, 2007, 02:56:05 PM »
Lets face facts its a religious war pure and simple ! oil or devices of mass destruction ain't the reason ! we could blow them off the earth and we get most of our oil from canada and mexico ! We want everyone to think like us and they want them to be like them !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Dee

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Re: Shouldn't We Be taking Heed...?????
« Reply #57 on: June 04, 2007, 03:03:31 PM »
There ya go. Well said.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Shouldn't We Be taking Heed...?????
« Reply #58 on: June 04, 2007, 03:06:26 PM »
So how do we fix it ?
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Dee

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Re: Shouldn't We Be taking Heed...?????
« Reply #59 on: June 04, 2007, 03:42:10 PM »
Informed voting I believe is the only answer, outside a revolution which I think will eventually happen, though not for reasons discussed in this thread. Our society is suffering a moral break down much as Rome and other countries did over history. We have abandoned morality, and ethical behavior in favor of self gratification, and power. Our government has turned to violent over-throw, nation building when leaders of small countries that we put into power stop playing ball with us. Take Norieaga of Panama, and Hussien of Iraq. Both of these gentlemen were schooled in the School of the Americas located at Ft Benning, Ga., prior to their rise to power. Their only real error was greed at doing business with someone other than THEIR dictator the U.S. government.
Term limits would do much to fix an obviously broken system but, career politicians are not going to vote themselves out of a job. We have not won a war since WWII, because we quit fight to win and started to fight for policy, and political power. The Korean and Viet Nam veterans got screwed big time and have never been given their due. And neither war had clear boundaries or goals. Just talked about ideological principals that the people in both countries were not willing to really fight for themselves. The Iraq vet (one of them is my own son) will fair not better. Already engagement rules have been put into place reminiscent of the Viet Nam era. We have lost over 3500 good young Americans and the politician continues to RE-DEFINE the war.
A good dose of mind our own business, and tell the damm truth would go a long way in this government, along with a return of Christian values, a return of family values, and a shutting down of our own borders to ensure internal security.
Our president complains about the crap coming across the Iraqi borders is a core problem prevent the so called mission and ignores our own borders. One could only realize that a strong military presence on our own borders could LITERALLY stop, or almost stop virtually all the narcotics coming into the country. Imagine that!
We are truly a country in decline, and the signs are everywhere. History is repeating itself, as it always does. A great society will rise up, and prosper, the generations that follow will become spoiled and the country will fall. It has been this way since God created the earth. We in America are no different than the Roman. They also thought they were invincible.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett