Pen Raised Huge Hog--Shoot/Don't Shoot?

[dukkillr]

Maybe I should clarify:  I don't care if someone shoots a tame pig.  I don't care if someone makes a big production out of shooting a cow and processing it, that cow was going to die for food anyway.  The part I want to make clear is that shooting tame animals in a pen is not hunting, and a vast majority of hunters agree.  It is on this point that I think hunters should be (and for the most part are) united.

And I am NOT judging all high fence areas.  I'm responding to the scenario posted.  I'm on the topic as presented.  There is no question that high fence areas should be judged on an individual basis for the challenge they represent.  There are no simple answers and there's no way to draw a clear line.  Unfortunately that means that we each have to think for ourselves, and come to a reasonable conclusion. 

My largest concern in this story, and the other tame animal story we tangled on, is that this type of thing is being taught to young hunters.  If this is the future we're toast.  If it's an aberration then it's just some idiot we can ignore and hope the anti's don't hear about it. 

[SHOOTALL]

we are getting into ethics , if i plant a food the deer like , sit on my porch and watch them all summer , when the season opens i shoot one ! now no fence exist , they come because they were conditioned to do so is there really a difference ?
at least in a large pen you have to hunt around to find the animal , the porch thing is shooting only ! In most cases the human is smarter than the animal the degree of challenge is up to the human and his ethics ! Look at what some have written its ok to kill it just don't call it hunting ! we seem to worry more about what we look like than what we do , and that is what will undo hunting as we know it !

[dukkillr]

I do worry a great deal about what I look like.  That's because the impression I give by my appearance and actions reflects on me and influences the opinions of those who see it.  If people saw some 300 lb slob who couldn't "hunt" unless he drove to 150 acre pen and shot somebodies pet pig, it would reflect poorly on me as a hunter, and on hunters in general.  That's simply life.  It isn't limited to hunters, but to all people, of all groups.  When I was in college my fraternity spent countless hours working to undo the negative stereotypes associated with them.  As an attorney I work hard to convince people that not all lawyers are PI guys who would sue their own mother for a nickle. 

The idea that you shouldn't care what image you project is fine, but be prepared to deal with the fallout that a negative image entails.  For instance, colleges can kick fraternities off campus.  If we didn't consistently out perform the general student body in grades and volunteer projects we would have to face that possibility.  We wanted to protect our organization in every way possible, thus we worked hard to produce a positive image.  That's why image matters.  Hunting is a privelge (NOT a right) regulated by the state, and if we don't maintain popular support for it, it can be eliminated by vote.  In some states it would be harder than in others, but it would be possible everywhere.

As for eithics, you're right.  It's gray, no question about it.  Is killing a food plot deer better than killing a deer at a feeder?  I don't know.  That's for you to decide where to draw the line.  But we, as hunters, should all be able to agree that we aren't going to support things that a) aren't hunting and b) hurt our image.  Shooting tame animals in a little pasture is one of those things. 

But for the "it's legal it's ethical" crowd you could take it a step further.  What if that pig was in my dog kennel?  It's about 20x15.  I'm pretty sure you could just walk up and shoot it.  Would that be hunting?  Would it be ethical?  To me what makes it unethical (and so damaging) is holding it out as "hunting".  If you want to kill that pig for slaughter, fine.  If you want to claim that you're "hunting" that pig, I think you're lying and you're hurting the sport I love.

[corbanzo]

If animals didn't taste good, I wouldn't be so inclined to kill them.  Shootall is bringing up a good point with the level of work you have to put into a hunt.  Some are just to put meat in the freezer, and others are for sport.

Heck I have friends who are anti's who say that when I'm doing it for food, its just fine, but when I go out and work for it, and do it because of the exhilaration of the hunt there is something wrong with me.  So according to them, a slaughter is ok.... but hunt is bad....  uhm, what?

Heck if I thought slugs tasted good, I would probably kill a bunch of them too...  and where is the hunt in that?  hahahaha

I say that there are different levels of hunting.  I get a lot more satisfaction if I have to plan, work, wait, use my skill, work a lot more, and then finally get home to wrap some dark piece of meat with bacon, light it on fire and chew on it than I do just going out my front door, popping a grouse and throwing him in with some rice.  Both are means to about the same end...  but how you get there is what makes it different for the hunter.

I remember when I shot my first grouse, I was excited as all heck, now they are an every other day type of thing.  Now it's on to bears and moose and caribou, etc.  I know that different hunters feel differently about their hunting than I do.  I know guys who think a deer is an everyday thing, but going out and hunting racoons at night is the most exciting thing ever, its like secret ops to them.  

As long as you eat it, I don't care.  As long as you respect other hunters even though they may do things different, I dont care.  Have fun with what you are doing.  Just dont let me hear you whine about what isn't hunting if you have ever bought meat from a store, cause believe me, that butcher did not chase the cow up a mountain ridge.  

If I eat an animal, I'm part of its taking, part of the reason and the process. I would eat bacon from that 11 year old boys hog.  There is plenty of it I'm sure.  Then I would give him some pointers about how to shoot a 500.   

I do think the hype was stupid, but I dont see anything wrong with killing the animal.  I would shoot a pet pig to make a good CHRISTmas dinner.

[rockbilly]

We must keep in mind, the individual that shot the pig was an eleven year old kid.  He may have been guided by some unscrupulous adult, but I can't blame the kid for that.  I would think that the kid will catch a lot of flak from friends and school mates that think badly of shooting in a penned environment, the "trophy" may be more than he bargained for.

As for the bacon off a 1100 lb hog, it may not be that tasty, the sausage may be OK, but that's an awful big batch of sausage.  For eating I would much rather have something around 200-250 pounds.

[blhof]

The talk of buffalo hunts reminded me of my wife's kin in South Dakota.  They have a large ranch and make a fair living with cattle; however hunters from the east and west coasts come and pay big to hunt deer and pheasant.  During one of their visits, a neighbor called and asked the landowner if he'd shoot his old buffalo bull; it was sort of a pet, but very old and going blind.  The owner asked one of the hunters if he wanted to shoot a buffalo, he was beside himself and offered $1000. for the chance and whatever it cost for the cape for mounting.  The bull was huge and his horns were large ang knarled, he looked like a real monster.  My wife's uncle took the hunter to the field where the buffalo was and warned him that wild buffalo can be very dangerous.  He carefully stalked in, full of adreniline and made the shot of his life.  He never knew that he could have walked right up and used a hammer on the old bull.  A happy hunter, owner and uncle. 

[SHOOTALL]

how can you worry what people think with dukkillr as a handle ( i like it but you have to wonder what image it projects to the anties ) my point is to  hunt on your terms , i don't believe we can win anything kissing the butt of any antis nor would we be worthy of respect if we did !
no i don't say do anything , have respect for the animal , other hunters , other non hunters and yourself !
an example - you shoot a deer then you ride it around town until it stinks ! you wasted a game animal !
this is wrong ! had you cleaned it and used the meat it would be ok ! IMHO

[Lloyd Smale]

so im curious as to the reaction of the holier then hell crowd is to this statement, a statement that is more and more the way the anti hunters are thinking

Heck I have friends who are anti's who say that when I'm doing it for food, its just fine, but when I go out and work for it, and do it because of the exhilaration of the hunt there is something wrong with me.  So according to them, a slaughter is ok.... but hunt is bad....  uhm, what?

I really dont give a rats +++ what ohter people think of me or my hunting styles and ethics. Thats a personal thing between me and God. No one else. I only hunt with a handgun or bow and ive hunted so called high fence hunts that were a heck of alot harder hunts then any mule deer hunt ive been on out west back when i shot a rifle that was capable of shooting 300 yards. So if you judge a hunt by how easy it is to bag game about every antelope hunt in the US would have to stop as just about any idiot with a high powered rifle can take an hour ride in a pickup and kill one of them. Mule deer in there heyday werent much harder and still arent in some places. I want to know too out of all you righteous hunters how many are ground hog hunters or kill other varmits. What do you think the antis think of you and how do you reflect on our reputation as hunter taking high powered rifles and blowing the hell out of little animals and leaving them to rot! How about coyote hunters do you really think those liberal antis consider it any differnt then if you shot there dog and let it lay. What about the bear hunters that take dogs and run a scared little bear to exaustion and tree it and blow it out of the tree and let the dogs tear it up a little for fun. Are we feeling a little hipocritical yet or do i need to bring up a few more examples. I think every one of these examples of killing poor little wild animals that were free roaming bothers the antis a hell of alot more then someone going in a 4o acre enclosure and killing an animal that was raised from the time it was born to be food for the table at some point. Sorry but ill not only call it ethical but ill call it hunting and if you dont like it look in the mirror at yourself and your beliefs before you judge me and keep in mind that though you judge me i dont judge you becasuse im not a hipocrit.

[dukkillr]

how can you worry what people think with dukkillr as a handle ( i like it but you have to wonder what image it projects to the anties ) my point is to  hunt on your terms , i don't believe we can win anything kissing the butt of any antis nor would we be worthy of respect if we did !
no i don't say do anything , have respect for the animal , other hunters , other non hunters and yourself !
an example - you shoot a deer then you ride it around town until it stinks ! you wasted a game animal !
this is wrong ! had you cleaned it and used the meat it would be ok ! IMHO

It appears that we agree.  You're not advocating the "well it's legal then it's moral" and you appear to be saying that we should have respect for ourselves, the animals, and others.  I agree wholeheartedly about driving around with animals in my truck.

I picked my name in between college and law school when I was guiding more.  I've maintained it because I want people to know I'm a hunter.  I hope people will see a well educated, well spoken, intelligent person, who does a great deal to preserve a noble sport in a classy manner.  In short, I WANT people to ask me if I hunt.  I want to negate those negative stereotypes people have.  I can't count the number of times someone has said, "Well you don't look like a hunter."  That's what I want people to say.

But this isn't about me, it's about shooting a tame pig.  

[NONYA]

Go on an unguided muley hunt in Mt and hold out for a good buck(160+),your opinion of muley hunting will be rapidly modified.

[SHOOTALL]

dukillar , i like your handle , hey mine is shootall , want to hear how i got it - about thirty years ago i picked up a used mod. 64 winchester  shot it 3 times at a target the morning after i got it some how it grouped good ! on the first drive ( we deer hunt with dogs ) a turkey showed up and well i proceeded to miss alot at a still turkey ! in plain sight of more than one member of the club and thus aquired the nick name shootall , in defence of myself the gun was shot by several and it had a broad patteren not a group the gun store agreed to test it and returned my money after shooting it . That first group was a fluke
yes we agree , there are many legal things to do i would not be a part of !
man has lived under laws for all of what could be called civilized time and we are making new ones at an increasing rate to close loopholes in the old one , shows ya can't legslate morals and ethitcs !

[cattleskinner]

Reading this post reminds me of a quote I once heard......"There is nothing inherently right, or wrong, it's thinking that makes it so".  In other words, killing is killing, there's life and death,....things are what they are.  It's just when people start to put their own twist to what is right or wrong, that arguments are bound to happen.

Now if you were to ask me if I were to kill that boar....the answer would most likely be that I would shoot it, but I sure as hell wouldn't eat it.  I've killed enough hogs in the slaughter plant to know that even the smaller (150ish pound) boars can smell like a 2 week old porta jon on a hot summer day.  You can try and cover the meat up with seasoning, but give me a sow or a small pig any day of the week, and just use the big boars to hang on the wall.  I do think the young fella needs to brush up on his shooting skills with that pistol though.

-Amos

[Lloyd Smale]

I agree with you there. Mule deer hunting for the most part is not what it used to be but your post brings up another point. Hunting for throphys. One of the first things the antis bring up is the wacko hunter that is just killing an animal because it has good headgear. Again i truely believe its alot easier to justify to them that your out there collecting meat then trying to put a mounted animal on the wall. My point in all of this isnt to tell you your ideas are wrong and mine are right. I love hunting and will go on about any hunt i can no matter where or for what. Look whats going on with the assult rifles these days. Many people would throw them to the wolves thinking that its a small price to pay to get the anti gun people off our back but do you really believe it will do anything but spur them on future. When we as hunters devide and call a small part of our sport questionalble and throw it to the anti hunters we are doing the same thing. ITS NOT UP TO YOU TO JUDGE! so why do it let the legislators take care of the game laws and do your best to show people that the taking of game for the table is a natural thing. THATS WHAT HUNTING IS. Thats what it allways was. It wasnt till modern times that it was made into a sport. Id bet if checked with your grandparents they would tell you that they didnt care how many antler points a deer had or how far off the road a antelope was or what side of a fence a pig was on. They were putting meat on the table. Even the antis for the most part eat meat and understand that an animal is killed to feed them and know that they dont have a leg to stand on when it comes to apposing us going out and collecting our own. Its allmost an inalienable right of a human. Its sport hunting that they appose or at least thats there excuse as im sure they want to live in a dream world and think there steak is magicaly made in the back of the store. United we stand devided we fall its as SIMPLE AS THAT!

Go on an unguided muley hunt in Mt and hold out for a good buck(160+),your opinion of muley hunting will be rapidly modified.

[SHOOTALL]

Whats wrong,  is one person trying to force their ethics on another person , be it a non hunter or a hunter !
We have a right to defend ourselves and a right to feed ourselves ! On another topic we got into retreat laws and now on feeding ones self here , it must be time to vote for a change back to what this country stood for when it was free !
I'd shoot the pig anything that big would probably welcome the relief ! Why did fred's owner get rid of him ? most likely cause they couldn't afford to feed him ! He was livestock pure and simple , and what farmer wouldn't try to turn a profit ? look at all the farmers that are turning their land into hunting operations because it makes mo money for them ! Thats all that took place here , right up until someone tried to make it more than what it is ! it was a killing , the same thing that takes place after many hunts , the problem is the ease of finding the target so need to walk for miles to call it a good hunt , some  climb a moutian , or set for hours over natural or man placed bait ! In this case the hardest part of locating the target may well have been finding the correct driveway to get to the pen !
When i hunt it is finding and selecting a critter i want to kill , be it for the table or wall or both or to rid a field or other place of a pest or nuisance. the killing comes after the hunt !
Its a shame they get confused !

[Dee]

I believe that if one would look closer at these so-called anti-hunters, you would find that many are more anti-gun than anything else. The hunting issue is just something else to target, that requires a gun to participate in (excluding bows, the tough guys with the bowie knives).
Hunting is a moral issue to the hunter, or at least it should be. Some moral judgments are different for different people and different regions sometimes, even though they may concern the same type of game hunted. So to judge one man for using dogs, to hunt deer in one area, while condoning feeders in another area, or stalking in another area, is judging something one has no right, and usually not enough real information for that area, to pass judgment on.
There is much to-do on anti-hunters, but is that the real issue, or could it be just another road used to get to gun control? One must examine one's self down deep, and ask the question. If guns are banned, will you give yours up? If hunting is  banned will you give your right to hunt up? Or will you continue to live your life in the moral fashion that you have always lived it.
At some point this runaway government will pass a law that you are completely against, and is blatantly wrong. Some of these laws have already been passed, but I am talking about the law that will affect YOU DIRECTLY. It will forbid you from something that you hold deep convictions on, as YOUR RIGHT to do. Will you obey that law and surrender your God given rights, or will you say enough is enough?
Loyd hit the nail on the head in an earlier post, when he said he didn't care. As I approach 60, I find that my patience are exiting my thoughts on such matters as anti-hunter, gay rights, anti-gunners, ect. I live my life trying not to affect others in a negative way with my conduct, I try to please the Lord with a staggering walk, and have made up my mind that I am willing to go along with certain things, and at the same time have no use for certain other things. I admittedly offend occasionally with an expressed thought, but, for the most part do not intend to.
In other words, at this stage in my life, as I view an ever growing crazy view of a culture gone nuts, my attitude is; I don't care what anti-hunters think, I don't care what anti-gunners think, I don't care what gay rights activists think, I don't care what illegal aliens think, I don't care what a two dollar lawyer in Washington thinks. I have done nothing wrong, that God has not called me out on, and I refuse to worry about some idiot that is educated far beyond his intelligence level, thinks about ANYTHING. And in my opinion, if you are a good and decent person, neither should you. I am not saying you shouldn't vote, and stand up for your rights. You should. I'm just saying, you are only in trouble with the anti's if you care what they think. About anything. That's just one old man's opinion. It takes some of the stress out of life, and puts your attention on more important things, such as good kidney function.

[SHOOTALL]

With age comes wisdom ! you seem to age well !
I am still young since i have 5 or 6 years to catch ya , but i do check to make sure things are up and working before i stray to far from the house each day !
You hit a very good point why worry about man when God is the only one with a right to judge !

[gypsyman]

Dee, your absolutely right in your assumption, that anti-hunters are mostly anti-gun. Many years ago, back in the early '80's, I called into a local radio station, that had Cleveland Amory on. He was one of the first Peta guys. We got into a discussion/argument about hunting. My point was that hunting was a renewable resource, as I had referd to duck and goose hunting. When I mentioned that I also did alot of walleye fishing here on Lake Erie, he said, well, fishing's not as bad as hunting. I said, that's funny, as the fish suffers more that any duck/goose or deer I've ever killed. Suffocating in the bottom of an ice chest. His answer, I just don't like it when you go out and kill something with a gun. Never got a chance to ask him if killing something with a bow and arrow was as bad. Radio station host said thanks for the call, and hung up on me. Oh well, had my 5 minutes of fame. My thoughts on the pig  shoot. I bet the vast majority of hunters wouldn't have shot the pig if they know the situation and surroundings. I'll bet the 11 year old boy didn't know, but I'll bet his dad did. I had read earlier, that it was a 1500 acre area. I just read in our local paper that it was a 150 acre area. Don't know if that was a misprint or not. Either way, I personally am not interested in that kind of hunt. But, I suppose with some people's work schedule, and lack of free time, they try and squeeze in whatever they can. I won't condemn them, but I know it's not something I'm interested in doing. We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!! Remember (12/7/41)(9/11/01) gypsyman

[Dee]

I think what is paramount, is that when we put ourselves out there for scrunity on what we might think is an accomplishment, we are taking a chance. For instance, there is thread after thread on this website about what caliber to use for what game. One of my favorites is the mythical hog caliber. I live in an area of Texas where hogs are considered vermin by stock producers and farmers and people with pretty bermudda grass lawns that live in the country. They have been here for centuries (the hogs) but, have steadily grown to be a nusiance.
I started life out in a two room house with a tin roof and no plumbing. My Cherokee father and grandfather, were two of the most PRACTICAL people I have ever met in my 57 years of life. They used what worked, on what ever they needed doing. Grandpa had a Marlin leveraction 22, that was probably 40 years old when he found it in a cave, and a single shot 12 guage. They in grandpa's hands worked. For squirrel, varmints, and yes, HOGS. Hogs are not that hard to kill, but in reading some posts written by so called experienced hog hunters they (the hogs) wear body armor, are tactically trained in guerrila fighting, and can soak up a head shot from a 458 win mag, and still have enough energy left to kill or maim ya.
But here's the truth. The hog I am kneeled over in my avatar is about a 300 pounder. I am a big guy, with lots of cloths on so he looks smaller than he actually is. It's a boar with almost 2" cutters. I killed him while he slept under a cedar, with a 52 grain match hollow point reload from Blackhills. Yep! One shot.
Now with this one paragraph, I opened myself up to be scrutinized by other people, but the point is, I don't care. I KNOW what will work, and what will not on such situations thru experience. No bullet data, ballistic coeffienct data, velocity data, tragectory data, bullet energy, hydrostatic shock info matters. That hog is letting me kneel over him because he is dead. Was I hunting hogs that day? Yes! Was it an exciting shot? Not really, but the farmer thanked me.
I have told my children when they were growing up to realize one thing. Some folks are gonna love you know matter what you do. AND some folks are not gonna like you no matter what you do. Accept it!
So I say to hunters and gun owner alike the same thing. If you are in your deepest opinion of yourself being a good and moral person in all your life's endevors. To heck with'em. They don't like guns and hunting so they don't think you should either. Tell them you don't like football, and soccer, so they shouldn't either. Better still, ignore them, but realize, they are not going to go away.JMO

[SHOOTALL]

DEE DEE DEE , you should know you can't use .22 , beast and slayed in the same sentence !
how could a guy Bragg about slaying a charging beast of a hog with a .22 ( i did do it ) it just won't get him the same importance as if he used an atomic thunder cannon or mag. this or that ! got to impress , right ?
sounds like you had a nice hunt !

[corbanzo]

I mean its really pretty simple if we think about it.

Anti's are against killing things, and the tools which make it easier (guns) to kill things.  - All of it.

I kill things, I love doing it, and the tools which I use (guns) to kill things. - All of it.

There ain't much of an arguement there.


As long as you use it right, don't make it suffer, I don't have a problem.  Other than that, I shouldn't have a problem with your methods, due to being a fellow hunter.  Just because it isn't hunting to me, doesn't mean it isn't hunting to someone else.  It's kind of like golf...  man I think golf is dumb, but some people have lots of fun with it.  Do what you want.

You can call me whatever you want....  I don't care, its how I am and its how I live, and I'll defend it.  I will also defend anyone else who shares the sport with me, even if it isn't how I'd do it myself.  That is how we defend it.

[Lloyd Smale]

DEE i think if we lived closer wed be best freinds. I like your stand on life and there aint one bit of BS or ego in anything you said. I have to answer to few people. My boss and girlfreind sometime and GOD ALL THE TIME. Experts here in ballistics and hunting ethics we have in DROVES! Hell all it takes anymore to be one is a lesson in keyboard operation. Theres a group of about a half a dozen guys on this forum that i really respect for there knowlege and for the character and I know it proably means nothing to you but you have been added to that list. Even a dumb old bullheaded fart like me can read between the lines good enough realize hes deal with a gentleman for a refreshing change.

[NONYA]

Regardless of our personal opinion of a hunters choice of hunting style,game,weapon,ect. we are entitled to it,thats all it is an opinion,our opinion isnt going to take away your right to do it as you choose.So many think we should accept everything legal without forming an opinion of it in the name of unity,never going to happen,some may refrain from sharing to placate them but there will never be a time when everyone agrees on these choices hunters make.If you cant stand to hear an oposing opinion on a topic dont bring it up.

[mk454]

well, i just analyze what the different ways are the animal would die naturally.  let's see, getting eaten while still alive by coyotes, starving to death when old, getting sick and dying over a couple weeks to months when old, hit by a car, and the possible mountain lion attack.  if i'm hunting and i've weighed up my options and what i'm gonna do causes less suffering than any of the more "natural" possibilities, then it's ethical imho.  that's just how i analyze it.

NONYA-- do you realize that there's segments of hunters out there, such as trad archers, that don't think anything you do is really hunting b/c you use a firearms.  i am a trad archery hunter, but i think we all can pretty much weigh up what we do and don't think hunting is and it for all of us involved in firearms, hunting, archery, etc. we should go read and reread graybeard's posts again.

[Dee]

Well thanks Lloyd, I just tell it like I feel it, and we might get to be good friends anyway, regardless of geography. When I was a youngster I, like so many others thought I had it all figured out. Come to find out, I didn't. And you can tell a guy you think he's wrong without insultin him. Well, some you can. But the truth is we live in a world of instant gratification, and folks have got to thinking that technology is the answer to everything. We don't educate our kids anymore, we teach them to access information, but if the info is bad, what then? We have also because of technology sometimes abandoned our manners when we don't have to face the one we're talkin to.
Also, there is no need in calling a man a liar over an issue, even if he is. When I was growing up if you called a man a liar, you had better be able to do two things. Prove it, and back it up, cause if he wasn't lying, the fight was gonna be on. I'm still that way. If many of the posts on these forums were made in person they would be more polite. Maybe not at first, but later, I'll bet.
I don't care if a kid killed a big hog with 16 shots from a hand cannon, running around on a fenced game preserve, or shot him standing in a barn stall with a 12 guage. It's nothin to me. What I don't get is people insulting each other over something neither man did, nor do they know the one that DID do it.
The riff as I see it, is what will the anti-hunters think. Who the hell cares what they think? I don't care how hard it is to stalk a throphy muley, I don't care how hard it is to follow a herd of antelope in a pickup until you get a shot at one. I don't care who thinks they know more about hunting than I do, because if they tell me they do, they probably aren't so sure of it themselves or they wouldn't have to proclaim it themselves. Other people would be telling it for them. I just know that when I am in the woods, I feel at home, and have for more than 50 years. Everything else is just excess noise.

[NONYA]

Well thanks Lloyd, I just tell it like I feel it, and we might get to be good friends anyway, regardless of geography. When I was a youngster I, like so many others thought I had it all figured out. Come to find out, I didn't. And you can tell a guy you think he's wrong without insultin him. Well, some you can. But the truth is we live in a world of instant gratification, and folks have got to thinking that technology is the answer to everything. We don't educate our kids anymore, we teach them to access information, but if the info is bad, what then? We have also because of technology sometimes abandoned our manners when we don't have to face the one we're talkin to.
Also, there is no need in calling a man a liar over an issue, even if he is. When I was growing up if you called a man a liar, you had better be able to do two things. Prove it, and back it up, cause if he wasn't lying, the fight was gonna be on. I'm still that way. If many of the posts on these forums were made in person they would be more polite. Maybe not at first, but later, I'll bet.
I don't care if a kid killed a big hog with 16 shots from a hand cannon, running around on a fenced game preserve, or shot him standing in a barn stall with a 12 guage. It's nothin to me. What I don't get is people insulting each other over something neither man did, nor do they know the one that DID do it.
The riff as I see it, is what will the anti-hunters think. Who the hell cares what they think? I don't care how hard it is to stalk a throphy muley, I don't care how hard it is to follow a herd of antelope in a pickup until you get a shot at one. I don't care who thinks they know more about hunting than I do, because if they tell me they do, they probably aren't so sure of it themselves or they wouldn't have to proclaim it themselves. Other people would be telling it for them. I just know that when I am in the woods, I feel at home, and have for more than 50 years. Everything else is just excess noise.

Then why are you here?If this is all just excess noise why are you so concrerned with it?Obviously you do care what we think.

[Lloyd Smale]

maybe hes here to share his intersts and experiences with others that share his passion. Or them maybe hes here because he just dammed wants to be! Bottom line is i dont care what good portion of the people on this or  on any internet fourms think of me or anything else for that matter but that doesnt keep me away. If i can help one good person  or steer them away from one bad person its been worth it to me and i think if you check around ive accomplished that on here a couple times.

[corbanzo]

We better hope that our better sides don't get on here and see this though, if they saw how we bicker, we would lose all credibility!!!   

[Lloyd Smale]

well said. Im gone.

[SHOOTALL]

MK454 you don't hunt with a tool , you kill with it ! the hunt is in finding the animal and getting into a position you can use the tool of your choice , nothing more nothing less !
The bow is a fine tool , has been improved to perfection , and very capable of killing game for sure ! But to suggest that the killing tool defines whether or not an activity is hunting or not is arrogant folly ! If i locate and stalk to within a few yards and kill an animal with a gun is it less of a hunt than a bow hunter setting over a clover field and killing an animal ? They have not defined hunting they have defined access to a club of self appointed BS artist !
I realize some people try to make the killing of an animal a lofty event , while in reality it is man exercising a well honed survival skill , in all reality why is an elk being killed more important than a cow ?  death to either is the same , but to man the elk is elevated to a higher position , most likely due to availability as much as anything ! I know many will yell skill !
I agree , but availability limits the experience needed to acquire the skill . That being said we as hunters/killers are obligated to kill in the most efficient manner possible , nothing less is humane !
I find trying to define/justify why we hunt/kill about as necessary as why we breath ! The domestication of animals has to be the idea of a tired hunter penning up some animals so he would not have to hunt as far to eat some long ago time in the history of man ! It is one of the most needed survival skills , we practice , we eat , man has changed very little our tools and skill have ! If you want to see a link to the first hunters , reach in your pocket and pull out a pocket knife , how many generations have carried a cutting tool ?
YOU DON"T HAVE A POCKET KNIFE ? how on earth did you end up reading this ?

[Dee]

I heard that noise again.