Author Topic: Are long shots ethical?  (Read 6175 times)

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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Are long shots ethical?
« on: June 03, 2007, 04:46:55 PM »
This has been done before but rather than sidetrack 358Win's thread about the efficiency of the .358 Win I decided to create a new thread.

Please keep your posts civil and respectful -- personal attacks and other such nonsense will result in posts being deleted

...  At to my remarks and anyone else's about shots at 500 yards.  Any fool who tries that on live game should be put in jail for at least
a month or so to really think about what he is doing.  The only time such foolishness should ever be attempted is in the case of an
already wounded animal.  That was probably shot at 300 yards the first time instead of holding your shot at live game down to 200
or 250 at the very most.  Most people can't hold a 4 inch group at 100 yards in the field unless using a bipod and shooting from the
prone position.  That works out to 8 inches at 200, 10 at 250, and 20+ inch groups at 500 yards.  So those discussions are even
more academic than worrying about such trivia as efficiency.
Coyote Hunter
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Offline DakotaElkSlayer

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Re: Are long shots ethical?
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2007, 05:56:04 PM »
  What is the definition of a "long shot"?  Are you talking about all those yahoos that come into Gander Mountain to tell me about the buck they shot at 500+yds.?  I had one guy tell me about this buck he shot at some ridiculous distance; don't remember the exact distance, but it was around 1,200yds.  He told me he had to hold it a FOOT over its back...that's why he shoots some big wizbang magnum!!! ;D  He was telling me this in front of my boss and it was tough not to bust out laughing.  My boss actually said, "Wow, that's some flat shooting rifle, I need to get one of those." ;D ;D ;D ;D
  My usual response to the "long range" crowd is about how they are better than me.  I tell them that I personally couldn't find the exact spot the deer was standing at such a distance to look for a blood trail if the deer ran out of sight after the shot.  Every single one gets this look on their face, a look of confusion.  A few of 'em actually say, "Every deer I have ever taken dropped in their tracks."  Come to ND in the fall, and you will be amazed at the number of dead dandy bucks you will find laying in a treeline, or just inside a small stand of trees.  I came across two different 8-pointers in one day last season.  One was about 120" and the other a SOLID 140".

Jim
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: Are long shots ethical?
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2007, 07:29:14 PM »
358 Win –

While I understand your feelings about long shots, I don’t agree that they are “foolishness” per se or that they should only be attempted on wounded game.

Granted, there are folks who cannot hold a 4” group at 100 yards and these people really have no business attempting a 500 yard shot on game.

It is equally true, however, that there are hunters for whom 500 yard shots are not long at all. 


As I see it, and ethics aside for the moment, there are a number of factors that go into making such a shot:

1. A rifle, scope and load capable of good accuracy.  Groups of 1-1/4” at 100 yards will do nicely for 500 yard shots at most big game.  Smaller is, of course, better.

2. The ability of the shooter to shoot accurately from whatever field position is used.

3.  Knowledge of the chosen load’s trajectory.

4.  Accurate range determination.

5. Accurate determination of the effect of the wind.


That doesn’t sound too difficult, and in fact it is not.  Last fall I took Zack,  a friend of my oldest daughter,  to the range.  Zack had shot rifles before, but had not shot anything for 4 years.  We started out at 200 yards plinking clay pigeons.  Misses were the rare exception for both of us, so we backed off to 300 yards.  Zack soon informed me that it was still “too easy”, and indeed it was.  I decided to back off to 400 yards but no bench was present.  Rather than lay in the dirt we continued on to the 500 yard position.  I had never shot my bolt guns from 500 yards before so the first thing I did was take two sighters with the .22-250, using the same aim point for both.  On my 3rd shot I made a slight adjustment  and barely missed and my 4th shot broke the pigeon.  I told Zack where to aim and he also broke a pigeon on his 2nd shot.  We repeated this story with the .257 Roberts, the only difference being that Zack broke the pigeon on his 1st shot.

 We then backed up to 600 yards and broke out the .300 Win Mag.  Again, since I had never shot this rifle past 400 yards, I took two sighters, using the same aim point for each, with each just missing a freshly painted steel gong at the 10:30 to 11:00 position.  Adjusting appropriately, my 3rd shot rang the gong.  I handed the .300 Win to Zack who promptly rang the gong as well.  On inspection both bullets had hit about 1-1/2” apart about 2-1/2” out from dead center in the 10:30 to 11:00 position.

Yes, we were shooting from benches – wobbly, heavily weathered wooden benches.  A good rock, log, stump, bipod or other improvised rest would have been as good or better.  (Case in point, I have used the .257 Roberts to take two coyotes at ranges between 480 and 490 yards, using field positions and improvised rests.  Three shots total, one head shot and one Texas Heart Shot followed by a lung shot.)

 The equipment was nothing special, either – a Ruger MKII .22-250 VT with a Simmons Whitetail Expedition varmint scope, a Ruger M77 .257 Roberts with a used Leupold Vari-X III 4.5-14 scope and a Ruger MKII .300 Win Mag with a “canoe paddle” stock and a Burris 3-9x Fullfield II scope with a Ballistic Plex reticle.  Nothing custom, nothing fancy, but they all met the “reasonably accurate” criteria.  We were able to brace the benches with our legs to eliminate some of the wobbly, I knew the calculated trajectories of the loads, we knew the range, and wind was almost non-existent.  Thus the 5 conditions I described above were met.

The point of this story is not to brag about my shooting capability, which frankly is not that great, but rather to show that even someone who hasn’t shot in 4 years can hit well at 500 yards and beyond given the right circumstances.  Every shot taken at 500 and 600 yards, including my sighters, would have easily been a kill shot on elk or mule deer.  A few shots at 500 and 600 yards do not prepare me for such shots at game, but there are those that practice much more and at greater distances.  For many of these people, 500 yards is a chip shot.

There is the argument that a “real hunter” would get closer.  That can be the subject for another debate, but the fact is that while choosing not to shoot is always an option, getting closer is not.  That’s where ethics come into play.

My goal as a hunter is quick, clean, one-shot kills.  Most of the hunters I know share that ethic.  The shooting skills of hunters vary greatly and while some can accomplish that goal at extended ranges, others cannot manage it at 100 yards.  IMHO the difference between an ethical shot and one that is unethical revolves around the preparedness of the shooter more than it does the range of the shot. 

Most people would consider 85 yards to be a ridiculously easy range yet a co-worker managed to gut shoot an antelope at that distance last fall.  While I don’t have all the details, it was, in his words, “not pretty”.  Was he more ethical than a well-prepared hunter who makes a heart or lung shot at 500 yards?   I don’t think so.

How about freehand shots at running game at 100 yards versus 500 yard shots at standing game using a tree log, rock, stump or bipod for a rest?  Frankly, I’ve shot at enough running coyotes to say I’ll take the 500 yard shot.

Again, with other factors being equal, it isn’t the range, it’s how well prepared the hunter is to make the shot.  IMHO.
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Offline James B

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Re: Are long shots ethical?
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2007, 07:33:34 PM »
Only at targets. Targets don't get gut shot and crawl off and die a slow death.
shot placement is everything.

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: Are long shots ethical?
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2007, 07:42:36 PM »
DakotaElkSlayer –

A couple things come to mind:

1. My .300 Win Mag will shoot its 180g/3057fps TSX load to 1000 yards with only a foot of holdover.  That’s not a problem at all – it’s the mid-ranges that are a problem.  Just need to zero for 973 yards.  ;)

2. Obviously you deal with a number of hunters who fall into the “unprepared” category.

3. The range at which those deer were shot, or the distance they traveled afterwards, is unknown.
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Offline DakotaElkSlayer

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Re: Are long shots ethical?
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2007, 08:41:21 PM »
DakotaElkSlayer –

3. The range at which those deer were shot, or the distance they traveled afterwards, is unknown.


Take the big 8-pointer, for instance, since that one is etched in my mind.  If I showed you a picture of a broadside deer, and asked you where you would want your  bullet or broadhead to hit, you would probably point to the exact spot the bullet hit the deer.  Seriously, I would call it a "perfect" shot.  Two, he was found on a gametrail in a ravine about thirty yards from the edge of a large CRP field.  I would put money he was in that field when he was shot, and he didn't travel over 100yds. away.  As for the range, I would put money that it was around 400yds.  How do I know?  Well, the land is posted, but there is a section line rd. approximately 400yds. away that runs along a shelterbelt.  Again, it was a great shot.
  A side note...  Out of that same field, I took a nice 7pt buck from about 270yds.  As I layed there, I watched him fall after a short run.  I marked the spot, got my buddy, and went to that field.  It took over 20 minutes to find the deer, and I never even found the bloodtrail until after we found the deer.  The spot I marked was obviously not marked well enough!  That's the reason behind the 300yds. max for ME.

Jim
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Offline jim dab

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Re: Are long shots ethical?
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2007, 09:56:15 PM »
500 yard shorts are really easy if the rifle is the least bit accurate and you know the range,and you know the range. Wind seams to play a big part at times, blows one way and then it blows an other way, moves stuff around, bullets even.

And Jim you are so right about finding the animal. The wife shot a good size whitetail (140 plus) a couple of years ago. 75-80 yards. We watched it bolt and then role up in a ball not 25 yards from where it was hit. We took our eyes off it to get the truck and drive into the pasture. I knew it was about 100yards into the field. It took us a hour and a half to fine it. 3 inches of grass and only a couple of patches of snow. Boy did he blend in.

A whole lot of variables. You shot a deer at 500 yards and have the animal to prove it, I guess its ethical. You shot at a deer and only have a story, not so much.

Jim

Offline OLDHandgunner

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Re: Are long shots ethical?
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2007, 01:14:40 AM »
My thoughts on this are:  Any good hunter or sportsman knows the limitations of himself ( or herself ) and his weapon. And should use these when hunting. If you are a good shot and practice at these ranges, yes go ahead and take that shot. That's what makes great hunting storys.

Offline Savage .250

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Re: Are long shots ethical?
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2007, 03:18:04 AM »
 To those guys who need/want/have to shoot at game at long range and hit/kill same, more power to you.
    Different strokes for different folks.
    Long range to me is after i get to my deer and am breathing heavy..........long range.  ;D
   
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Offline benchracer

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Re: Are long shots ethical?
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2007, 06:08:37 AM »
Even under the best of circumstances, it takes very little to turn a shot on game into a hit whose results are less than desireable.  I would venture to speculate that far more "easy" shots are blown in the field than the total number of "long" shots that are even attempted.  In my opinion, a "long shot" is defined more by the capabilities of the shooter, field conditions, and the rifle/ammo combination being used.  If I were using my heavy barrelled .308, 300 yards would not be a long shot (assuming a solid rest).  If I were using my 45-70 Guide Gun, I would think twice about a shot at half that distance.  Factor in a strong or erratic crosswind, and all bets are off.  There is nothing unethical about a "long" shot, provided that it is done within the known limitations of the shooter and equipment.  Taking a "hail mary" shot is what is unethical.  Unfortunately, I am aware of too many hunters who are all too willing to take such a shot.  Distance has little to do with it. 

Offline RaySendero

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Re: Are long shots ethical?
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2007, 02:41:56 PM »
..... There is nothing unethical about a "long" shot, provided that it is done within the known limitations of the shooter and equipment.  Taking a "hail mary" shot is what is unethical.  ..... 

BINGO!.....Think benchracer has hit nail on head.

Just remember, He's responsible for his ethics - YOUR responsible for YOUR ethics! - I'm responsible for mine!

Be careful not to impose your's on others - Your not responsible for other's ethical or unethical behavior!.   
    Ray

Offline IOWA DON

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Re: Are long shots ethical?
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2007, 05:19:57 PM »
I've shot lots of coyotes and antelope at 400 yards and over. During the past two winters Iowa started a rifle season for deer (does only). I have a .338-.378 Weatherby with a heavy Shilen barrel and a 4.5-14x scope with a custom range compensating reticle, and a lazer rangfinder. During these two seasons with that equipment I got deer at 555, 620, 657, 701 and 747 yards, plus a bunch between 375 and 475 yards. With my equipment and a proper rest they were not difficult shots. However, on windy days where I was not sure of proper hold for wind I passed up lots of shots. Note that most deer hunting in Iowa is still done with shotgun slugs and I think most deer are shot during drives where the deer are normally running. I hear lots of shooting going on when near these drives and from the number of shots fired I think the average for that type hunting is probably at least four shots per deer. What I am getting at is that the close range drive hunting that most people consider ethical wounds many deer, and my hunting does not! I do not participate in drive hunts and over the past 10 years have killed approximately 10 deer previously wounded by others. Two of them were hit in the lower parts of their rear legs. That is a long way from their vital areas. I admit that I am not an expert woodsman, but am a good shot and prefer to hunt using a method where I can use my best talents.

Offline nomosendero

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Re: Are long shots ethical?
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2007, 06:35:50 PM »
In just about any areas where Whitetails are hunted, FAR more are wounded at close range than long range & no doubt it will always be that way.
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Offline aulrich

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Re: Are long shots ethical?
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2007, 10:56:19 AM »
That stands to reason since what 90% of whitetails are shot a under 100 yards. But if you looked at it like wounds/1000 shots, I bet there would be a different story.

Ethics are not purely personal but lots of times styles or methods are confused with unethical. for a long time I considered hunting big game with dogs as unethical, till the day I hauled a dog back to some couger hunters who were about 5km away  when I stopped to talk to them and seeing the conditions they hunted in it became no gimmie let alone the effort required to get a good set of dogs trained.  Lots of times we equate unethical = "to easy" My eyes were opened that day, now dog hunting still does not float my boat but I don't call it unethical anymore. There are probably alot of hound hunters that would not hunt over a bait.

There are things I happily and vigorously call unethical
Causing unnecessary suffering though negligence.
Breaking local game laws
etc.
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Offline nomosendero

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Re: Are long shots ethical?
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2007, 03:28:55 PM »
"But if you looked at it like wounds/1000 shots, I bet it would be a different story".

I don't think so!
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: Are long shots ethical?
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2007, 05:17:44 PM »
That stands to reason since what 90% of whitetails are shot a under 100 yards. But if you looked at it like wounds/1000 shots, I bet there would be a different story.
...



I suspect if you looked at “wounds/1000 shots” you would find that over 90% of them are made by hunters who are unprepared to make the shots they take and that range would have little to do with it.
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Offline nomosendero

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Re: Are long shots ethical?
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2007, 05:30:35 PM »
That stands to reason since what 90% of whitetails are shot a under 100 yards. But if you looked at it like wounds/1000 shots, I bet there would be a different story.
...



I suspect if you looked at “wounds/1000 shots” you would find that over 90% of them are made by hunters who are unprepared to make the shots they take and that range would have little to do with it.


Yep, still alot of those "sight in on a pie plate at fifty yard boys", they may be able to hit a Deer & wound it
at 100 yards, but miss it clean at 400.
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Offline IOWA DON

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Re: Are long shots ethical?
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2007, 06:28:16 PM »
Even as a kid I got a lot more satisfaction from making a long distance hit than shooting an animal at 5 yards. During high school I was shooting one-gallon cans at 200 yards with a .22 long rifle and pacing off anything I shot so I had developed a good ability to estimate range. What amazed me was that people I hunted with often guessed the range twice what it actually was when hunting with a rifle, but when hunting with a shotgun they would often shoot at animals way out of range and think they had a chance of making a killing shot. That was when I was a kid hunting with kids, but I still see it hunting with adults 40 years later. Anyway, I think there are lots of hunters who are very poor at judging distances, very poor shots, and know little about the actual capabilities and limitations of their guns. I've seen quite a number of people at the range getting ready for deer season trying to get their rifles sighted in. When they leave their rifle is still a couple inches off and their groups are really bad, but they generally say, it's good enough to hit a deer. Then they have little idea what the trajectory of their cartridge is and often plan to hunt with different ammunition than they used for sighting in. These guys probably have no business shooting at game more than 100 yards away. However, I think there are a number of hunters with proper equipment for which selected 400 yard and longer shots on deer sized animals are a sure thing.

Offline NONYA

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Re: Are long shots ethical?
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2007, 10:36:35 PM »
After playing with my Leopold vII range finder calibrated for my rifle and load it has really sharpened my distancing skills,its great fun,it tell you distance to Target and then computes your hold over taking in the angle of the shot distance to target and the ballistics of the exact load you are shooting.Even if you dont get a chance to use it in the field I have had a blast going on short walks,picking a distant target,making my best guestement in my mind and then lasing it with the Leo,I have really noticed a difference in how well i can judge hold over without really thinking about range,once you are this familiar with the rifles ballistics you can think of it in those terms instead of just range.
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: Are long shots ethical?
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2007, 03:52:56 AM »
IOWA DON –

Growing up ion an Iowa farm I never had an opportunity to hunt anything larger than fox, but my brothers and I spent a lot of time hunting crows and sparrows with our single-shot Ithaca Model 49 .22’s.  Every fall Granddad made us shoot the buttons off aerosol cans before he would let us hunt squirrels in his woods, and he insisted we go for head shots.  We got quite good with them and I’m convinced that the skills we learned back then have a lot to do with how we shoot today. 

A year of so back I took Daughter #3 to the range and we set clay pigeons up on the 200 yard berm.  There was a steady crosswind but after getting the windage correction down she blasted 11 out of the last 12 with one shot each.  She was using my Browning semi-auto .22 with a Simmons 22 Mag scope and people had been laughing at us when the first couple of rounds impacted a foot to the left of the pigeons.  The last laugh was her’s and it just goes to show what can be done with accurate knowledge of the range and trajectory.  You don’t want to get between her and a Clay pigeon at longer distances if she has my .22-250.

The last few years I have often spent a day working as a Range Officer during the club’s Hunter sight-in Days.  It is amazing to watch some “hunters” at work.  Like you say, large, off-center groups are often excused as “good enough”, and then the hunter goes off and buys a new box of a different type of ammo to hunt with.  I took a buddy to the range last year and he brought several different types of ammunition.  He had no idea the different loads might shoot to different points of impact or that they would have different trajectories.  That might explain why he had never been able to take game over 200 yards.

It has always been a wonder to me that varmint hunters think nothing of making 350-400 yard (and longer) shots on prairie dogs but others consider elk at 500 a risky shot.

As you suggest, its all in the preparation.



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Offline jasonprox700

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Re: Are long shots ethical?
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2007, 05:04:19 AM »
Here is the way I look at it.  I consider myself a much better hunter, not because I take "long shots", but because I am a good enough hunter to close those distances and make a more precise shot without having to worry about wind drift or hold over.

I consider myself a darn good shot.  I have taken crows at 500+ yards with my .280 deer rifle using the crotch of a tree as my rest.  But if I can help it, I would close the distance.  That is what hunting is all about, "hunting" your quarry, not "shooting" them. People that go aroung bosting about about there incredibly long shots and 100% bang flop kills, are not hunters.  Yes I have had a lot of deer drop on the shot, but I have also had many, many more run off after taking out both lungs or the heart.  These people either haven't been hunting long enough to have a deer run for a ways, or they just don't go looking if they see the deer fall at the shot.  If so, these people shouldn't be hunting!

Offline IOWA DON

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Re: Are long shots ethical?
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2007, 08:31:01 AM »
jasonprox - Maybe you are right, maybe long distance shooters are shooters, not hunters. My hunting buddy long ago told me I was not really a hunter, but a gun nut wanting to try my equipment out. I am a mechanical engineer (retired) and for me the technology was always a big part of the hunt. I archery deer hunted for three years and got three deer, including one the first morning of my first year. That to me was not nearly exciting as my first deer over 500 yards with a rifle. In preparation for archery hunting I asked several friends who bow hunted for advice. They talked about how difficult it was to stand on a small board for hours so I built deer stands big enough to lay down and sleep on. They talked about how one never knew exactly where the deer would walk, so I cut lanes for them to travel. And they talked about how difficult it was to shoot around leaves and branches so I did some tree triming. Pistol and rifle shooting was so similar to bow shooting that accuracy was not a problem within the trajectory limitations of my old bow. Woodsmanship here in Iowa was not much of a problem because my stands were next to waterways and if one waits by a waterway in Iowa eventually (probably much sooner) a deer will come along. I may have lost patience in the big forests of the east because my lack of woodsmanship would have been much more of a handicap, but did OK in Iowa mostly because of thinking about technology. Anyway, I think a persons problem solving methodology is more or less hard wired into them and reinforced by early life experiences. ---- Coyote Hunter - I grew up in eastern Nebraska and where my dad's farm was it was more or less a desert in regard to game. The farmers had plowed up most of the good wildlife habitat during the previous 10 or 20 years. Also, my dad was not a hunter so almost anything I learned about hunting was self taught and a long process. My dad did not give us presents or money, but did buy an old 219 Savage in .22 Hornet. I now know it was only so I would have a varmint rifle. He did this when I was 13 but it did not get used much because cartridges were 14 cents each and I had little $$. The summer I was 14 I bought a short barreled model 99 Savage in .243 with $$$ from a summer of lifting hay bales (recommended by some idiot gun writter). It was supposed to be super flat shooting, but when shooting at a 400 yard target I found it hit about a foot lower than it was supposed to. That was quite a lesson. The nest year my summers wages when to buy a long-barreled 7MM Weatherby. The first thing after sighting it in at 100 yards was to check point of impact at 400 yards, and it did as advertised. I was also pattern testing shotguns before high school and discovered the .410 my dad had did not have sufficient pattern density to kill a quail at 25 yards with the no. 4 shot he had bought for it (for long range). At a fairly young age I was questining about anything I heard or read, and became very sceptical of any claims my frends made in regard to their hunting adventures. Also, I was reloading for the 7MM Weatherby and the .22 Hornet before I was 16 and found that some loads were very accurate and others very inaccurate, and that just because a loading manual suggested that a paticular load was accurate did not mean it would be accurate in my gun. Anyway, in the poor hunting country I grew up in there was much more time spent getting the equipment ready for hunting than scouting for game or woodsmanship, since there was little game and little wildlife habitat.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Are long shots ethical?
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2007, 08:55:05 AM »
up near the top someone said be prepared for the shot , monya walks around getting prepared with leo , if you put in trigger time and learn to range  and can make the shot from a cold bbl. on demand , can dope the wind etc. its not a hard shot for you !
however equipment can't make up for lack of trigger time !  I can hit a gong at 500 yards most times with my 7 1/2 44 mag. most of the time on the 2nd or 3rd shot , so with my redhawk i wouldn't consider a shot at much over 50 yds much less 500 , but with my 300 win. mag. with a good rest and accurate range estimation ( knowing i can hit good ) i would still have to weigh the shot as to whether i could close the distance !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Are long shots ethical?
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2007, 08:58:56 AM »
MONYA that was a compliment , i am getting a RF and will do as you have , tried one the other day and need help !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline NONYA

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Re: Are long shots ethical?
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2007, 09:19:32 AM »
iF YOU CAN GET ONE OF THE LEOS WITH THE TRU RANGE BALLISTICS,its the same tech the military has used for years just scaled down and programmable to your bullet and ballistics.It also has a archery mode that will do the same program for close range bow hunting.Im pretty good at making a long shot from an offhand estimate but as far as estimating the actual range in yards and THINKING about the hold over before I look through the scope the RF has improved my skills.I have always been pretty decent at looking at the animal through the 10x scope and knowing where I need to hold but now I make myself think a bit more before I pull the trigger,I use rocks the approximate size of deer/elk to practice on and i pick a spot on the rock as the kill zone and try to hit that spot,i loaded up a bunch of surplus Hornaday 154grs just for this purpose.
If it aint fair chase its FOUL,and illegal in my state!
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: Are long shots ethical?
« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2007, 09:19:55 AM »
jasonprox700 –

It’s great that you try to get close so you don’t have to worry about wind drift or holdover.   No matter their skill, however, I don’t know any hunter that honestly believes it is always possible to “get closer”.  There are simply too many variables that are outside the control of the hunter for this to be the case.  These variables include limitations imposed, either in singular or aggregate, by time, weather, geography, lack of cover, other hunters, animal movement, property and game management boundaries, season dates and shooting hours, and so on.

Nor do I know any experienced hunters that claim 100% of their shots – at any range – are bang-flops.  While I am sure there are hunters who make this claim, I am equally sure that the majority would be what you would call short range hunters – simply because there are more of them to begin with.  It is a red herring issue, however, as it has nothing to do with the ethics of taking a long range shot.

So here is a question for you…

You have practiced at ranged out to 600 yards with your hunting rifle and mastered hitting an 8” steel gong at that range from field positions, mostly prone over a backpack.  It is the last day of the season and you have hunted hard with no success.  You have been stalking a monster bull for 3 hours and now, with only a couple minutes of legal shooting time left, you finally find him 500 yards away and slightly below you.  You throw your pack on a rock outcropping and use it as a rest while you line up for a shot.  The bull stops, giving you a perfect broadside shot opportunity.  There is only the slightest hint of air movement and no correction for wind is needed.  If you shoot you go home with a record bull, if not you go home empty handed.

Do you shoot?
Coyote Hunter
NRA, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Are long shots ethical?
« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2007, 09:53:49 AM »
Monya thanks
CH i would shoot , but i still would have enough respect for the Elk to consider all options your set up seems all options are used up , its either shoot or go home ! and since you said i was good , i would shoot !
As far as 100% its a goal ! worthy i believe !
I'm not a saint , not an expert ! and I HAVE MADE A BAD SHOT , and that is why i try harder at not doing it again !
its also why i average at least 1 trip to range every week if possible and not more than a 2 week miss !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline jasonprox700

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Re: Are long shots ethical?
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2007, 10:13:02 AM »
CH,
in the case of the elk at the last minute, I would shoot too.  If conditions were right, I know I could make the shot from that range with my .280 100% of the time.  In that case, with that amount of time, you couldn't really get any closer to make a shot.  I consider myself to be a very accomplished rifleman and shotgunner for being 25.  I am kind of cocky that way, but that's because I know I can do it. 

If I were sitting in a stand, and a nice buck or anything I wanted to shoot for that matter came through at a long range, and that animal was going to leave or I couldn't get a better shot, I would shoot if I knew I could do it.  I just have a hard time listening to these people that talk about the extreme ranges that they take animals, and then talk about how awesome they are.  THAT gives me a sour taste in my mouth, because if they say 500 yards, it usually means 350.  You know what I mean.  And a 350 yard shot is a long shot for a lot of hunters because of their skills.  Which is nothing to be ashamed of.  But if a hunter is one of those people, they shouldn't try to brag themselves up when they actually make that one in a million shot on an animal outside of their range capabilities.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Are long shots ethical?
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2007, 10:29:04 AM »
jasonprox700 , I'm a little over twice your age , i will take your description of your ability as if written in stone !
but would like to offer some advice , you can be perfect in all you attempt but sooner or later some undetectable gremlin will screw you up , maybe a bad bullet , a gust of wind at 400 yds on a 600 yd shot , a primer that wasn't quite as strong as the rest you had shot before and many other things . If you are cocky people will laugh that day,  if you are not you will be just a bit more humble and alot more experienced !
and i 100% agree about the hail mary shots , to say ya made a lucky shot is to say you attempted a bad shot to start with !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline NONYA

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Re: Are long shots ethical?
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2007, 11:15:55 AM »
100% OF THE TIME?Nobody can honestly say they will make a 500 yard shot on a game animal 100% of the time,there are to many possible variables and what ifs for anyone to be that consistent for very long.
If it aint fair chase its FOUL,and illegal in my state!
http://www.freewebs.com/lifealongthedge/index.htm