Author Topic: Are long shots ethical? (Read 6164 times)

jasonprox700 · « **Reply #30 on:** June 07, 2007, 12:01:28 PM »

If it were up to my abilities and there were no other elements to contend with. I should have said confident and not cocky because I am humbled from time to time and I do take a lot of constructive critism.

NONYA · « **Reply #31 on:** June 07, 2007, 01:16:32 PM »

When hunting wild game and shooting 500 yards there are plenty of elements to deal with,wind,light,your rest and most of all the animal,it takes a bit of time for a high velocity bullet to cover 500 yards,long enough for the game to take a step and make your shot a gutshot or a complete miss,you not only have to be able to make the shot you have to be able to judge the animal and the probability of movement.

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #32 on:** June 07, 2007, 01:37:52 PM »

jasonpro700 –

Your honesty is appreciated. I, too, would take the shot, given the circumstances as described (including adequate preparation). I can also say that I am not yet prepared for such a shot on big game. (Even though I am 100% on coyotes at ranges between 480 and 490 yards.)

Most hunters I know will get closer if conditions allow, but I also have a high respect for those that can make the long shot when conditions do not allow getting closer. The first time I saw someone shooting at 500 yards I snickered to myself, thinking “What a waste of ammo”. I quit snickering after I saw the target. Learned something useful that day...

IOWA DON · « **Reply #33 on:** June 07, 2007, 02:34:25 PM »

Another thing about a lot of the long range shooting I've done which is probably significant, the targets were usually coyotes, doe antelope, or doe deer. It is probably a lot easier to pass up a questionable shot when it's not the biggest buck you ever had a chance at. And by the way, I did pass up a shot at the biggest buck I had ever had a chance at about 10 years ago. That was during a shotgun-slugs-only-season and the buck was running strait away at about 40 yards. I think a shot in the butt would probably have knocked it down long enough to finish it with a second shot. I also think 90 percent of hunters would have taken the shot. But I considered it unethical even thought the range was short. Also, I get lots of shooting practice. For example, today with a match pellet rifle I shot 6 pest birds in my backyard, which is fairly typical for most of the year. I have a hill in my backyard which serves as a good backstop (30 feet high and almost 100 percent grade) and neighbors that don't care. Anyway, I get lots of shooting practice, have the best equipment, make sure it's functioning perfectly, and pass up any shots I consider questionable. Again, I admit that I am not much of a woodsman but think my long range shots are entirely ethical. In addition, my fellow hunters are not purchasing the available doe permits where I hunt, so my shooting is certainly not depriving better woodsman of chances to shoot more game, and I even have a couple farmers who have offered to pay for my doe permits (but I decline their offers). Finally, I have out-of-town guests for the next 5 days so will probably not follow this topic until after they leave.

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #34 on:** June 07, 2007, 02:43:44 PM »

NONYA –

You are correct in stating that the hunter taking a 500-yard shot at game must be able to judge the game as well as the shot. Making such judgments is never a perfect science but here is a question for you. Imagine two elk, one running at 100 yards and the other grazing at 500 yards. Your life depends on how well you can predict exactly where one of them will be in 0.6 seconds. Which one do you choose to make the prediction for?

Take my .300 Win Mag 180g TSX load at 3038fps. It arrives at the 350 yard line in 0.393 seconds. Most people would agree that that is a reasonable shot for the prepared hunter. That same bullet arrives at the 500 yard line at the 0.594 second mark, or 0.202 seconds later.

Just how long is 0.202 seconds? On a whim I downloaded the XNote stopwatch (you can Google it), which I then downloaded and ran on my computer. The stopwatch has Start/Stop button which can be clicked with a mouse. I then clicked the Start/Stop button twice, as fast as I could, to see just how long a fast double-click took. The times for 20 such start/stop sequences were recorded and averaged. My fastest time was 0.12 seconds, the longest was 0.21 seconds, and my average was 0.157 seconds. The point of this is that the Time of Flight difference between 350 yards and 500 yards is about the same as a fast double-click.

Just how far away is 500 yards? An average blink of the eye takes over 0.300 seconds, by which time the bullet has passed the 300 yard line. Blink again and the bullet is past the 500 yard line.

There have been many times I have watched elk from afar, and often they remained motionless for minutes at a time. On one occasion we watched a herd of elk from 11:30 in the morning until sundown, when I finally took a shot. During that time the elk were bedded down until a few minutes before my shot. Plenty of time to blink and not miss anything...

NONYA · « **Reply #35 on:** June 07, 2007, 03:27:20 PM »

You guys shoot 100% on 500 yard shots in the field,how can i compare with that level of excellence?Nevermind you 100%hunters dont need any advice do you?rofl whatever!

NONYA · « **Reply #36 on:** June 07, 2007, 03:31:44 PM »

Any hunter who is 100% on 500 yard shots in the field on game hasnt done much hunting at that range.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #37 on:** June 08, 2007, 01:42:21 AM »

jasonprox700 , thanks for understanding my point !
MONYA , i shoot on a 500 yard range , a measured range , its 5 football fields long , its long enough we use the truck to go change targets , been shooting on it for 30 years now , and i don't miss often , but only 1 miss means I'm not 100% !
I believe a hunter who takes 500 yard shots, better know his ethics allow him to live with a bad shot now and then !

Todd1700 · « **Reply #38 on:** June 08, 2007, 04:14:55 AM »

Hmmm, complex question. I'm not a long range shooting guru. Heck, it's a rare spot where I hunt that a 300 yard shot is possible so that's as far out as I practice.. But here are some thoughts I'll throw out there for the long range guys. How can you be certain of the wind on these 700 and over yard shots. I mean across a gap that big it could be a 5 mph crosswind where you are standing and yet much stronger half way down range. Heck maybe even blowing from a slightly different angle. Won't even minor changes in wind have a pretty profound effect on your bullet at such a range? Unless you hit every deer you shoot in the brain or spinal cord some are going to run. In fact your bullet will probably be carrying a lot less thump at 600 plus yards than it is up close so even a well hit animal at those distances is even more apt to run a ways. Isn't it hell to find the exact spot they were standing? I've shot deer at 200 yards and had trouble finding the blood trail. Also you guys must do a helluva lot of practicing from a wide range of distances because regardless of the cartridge you are using they are all dropping pretty hard by the time you get to 600 yards. You wouldn't just need to know how much your bullet dropped at 600, 700, or 800. The trajectory of even a flat shooting caliber looks like a rainbow out at these distances. Wouldn't you need to know the drop at 600, 625, 650, 675, etc, etc?

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Here is the way I look at it. I consider myself a much better hunter, not because I take "long shots", but because I am a good enough hunter to close those distances

I'm inclined to agree. If you can consistently hit a deer at 700 yards then that's d##n fine shooting. If however you are consistently getting within bow range of them then that's d##n fine hunting. Furthermore maybe I'm just being naive but people kill deer, elk, moose, bear, etc, etc, every year with a bow and arrow even in open country. If that is possible then I just can't see why consistently getting within 400 to 450 yards with a rifle would be so difficult.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #39 on:** June 08, 2007, 04:34:33 AM »

TODD1700 , i an very lucky and belong to 3 ranges , one has a 500 yard range so we shoot on it why ? because its there is the only reason ! you can get good at 500 yds if you practice ! Many of your points are good ones . you didn't even mention avalible light ! We how ever pratice on it and i know of no one who is 100% self included !
what would it take to be 100% , being able to walk up to the firing line on 12 different days in 12 different months and hit an 8 in circle first shot out of the case with a cold bbl. on all 12 days , did i mention rain or shine ?
Should be a cake walk for some in this crowd !

IOWA DON · « **Reply #40 on:** June 08, 2007, 05:35:38 AM »

This reply may not be popular. Yes, I could limit shots to some distance like 200 or 300 yards. However, we are limited to 7 days for the rifle season (does only). This is in January when 2 or 3 of those days may be eliminated because of extreme cold and/or windy weather. There is limited time but essentially unlimited permits, and I can shoot more deer in the limited time by taking longer shots. Other hunters are not buying the permits so I don't feel like a game hog. They seem to only want to shoot bucks although the Department of Natural Resources has been trying to encourage hunters to shoot does. The farmers feel there are way too many deer, so in effect they are a varmints, although large ones with good meat. I am able to give away the meat I don't eat. I am not wounding deer. I am making some farmers happy. I am not bagging animals that most other hunters want. So what's the problem?

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #41 on:** June 08, 2007, 06:35:03 AM »

Quote from: IOWA DON on June 08, 2007, 05:35:38 AM

...They seem to only want to shoot bucks although the Department of Natural Resources has been trying to encourage hunters to shoot does. The farmers feel there are way too many deer, so in effect they are a varmints, although large ones with good meat. ...

Growing up on a farm near Clemons, back in the ‘50’s, I rarely saw a deer. I can only think of a couple, and those were fleeting views in the headlights of the car as they jumped a fence.

These days I go back to the family farms and see more deer in a couple days than I saw in 20 years.

Its good to see the populations have rebounded to the point where they are considered nuisances!

NONYA · « **Reply #42 on:** June 08, 2007, 08:43:34 AM »

In a few of the areas i hunt i can buy as many doe MD tags as i can afford,I usually buy 5-6 sometimes more,most of the land owners in these areas are happy to see doe hunters and give us drive in access.With 5-10 md does,a wt doe and 2 antelope does in the freezer I can get serious and hunt a big buck during the last couple weeks of the rut.Before these doe tags were avaliable it was vital to get your elk in the freezer and I would spend 3/4 of the season looking for a spike to fill the freezer,now I can fill it with deer and hunt elk areas that allow brow tine bulls,Im not that old but in some areas around here there are more deer than even my Father can remember,and my Grandfather says when he was a kid deer were like BF,nowhere to be found!

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #43 on:** June 08, 2007, 10:16:36 AM »

IOWA DAN its an ethics ? , its not whats wrong with it , its what can you live with , I for one do not wish to control your ethics ! Where i live the deer often get to be nuisance levels also and as such have to be eliminated ! ITS the hunt ( work ) that is rewarding not the killing !

Mac11700 · « **Reply #44 on:** June 08, 2007, 10:25:23 AM »

Coyote:

Is the title of the thread really what your after here?

You will never have a consensus on it..ever...

Some folks no matter what you say will never ever agree with shooting over the yardage they are comfortable shooting at..and will try to impose their limitations as being what is "ethical" for everybody....

If a person is only capable of 50 yard shots and yet shoots well beyond that yardage..then who is going to make it...that this should be the furthest he shoots until he improves..This individual has to have the moral ethics with in himself to stay within those yardages..if not..he is causing harm..but..who is to say this to him...The only person that will get thru to him...is himself...or a judge...otherwise he will turn a deaf ear to those trying to give him good console..

It's funny how folks like to post what other should do...but few are willing to take measures against these types of individuals who can't shoot worth a darn at long ranges...and usually wounds more than not.....They would rather have it written in stone or a law passed to and say NO ONE is allowed to shoot an animal at XXX yards...instead of getting these types of individuals out the hunting fields...Why is this if this issue is really that important to them

We are all individuals..and no one has any right to impose their ethics on anyone else..wither they like it or not...If I am not breaking any laws....then leave me alone...If you have game laws in your state about wantonly wounding animals and leaving them..and I shoot at too far a distance..and actually loose the animal because of it then I would be in violation of the law..and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent...

If you can cleanly harvest animals at long distances...do so...If you can't do it...then don't...If you are unsure...then target practice on life sized targets and find out...and judge yourself...If you can't judge yourself..a real judge might...

Mac

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #45 on:** June 08, 2007, 10:28:34 AM »

" A MAN HAS TO KNOW HIS LIMITATIONS " heard that in a movie i think ! but it sure fits this topic !

ba_50 · « **Reply #46 on:** June 08, 2007, 02:24:59 PM »

So far you all have been talking about distances out to 700 yards. What about out to 1200 Yards?

There are some shooters who use exceptionally accurate rifles with target scopes. They have tested bullet drop so they can use come ups in elevation for that range. They use rangefinders, bench rests and so forth. The ones I have read about shoot in close to calm conditions. If you know you can make a killing shot on the first try I don't have a problem with that. I set my own limits by keeping all my shots in an area smaller than the vitals area and practice. (I don't shoot game at these ranges by the way). I do have experience shooting at 1000 yards though.

Anyhow, there was one case where a shooter using someone else's rifle and being coached by the rifles owner shot an elk at 1203 yards in the head. All these guys on the net were patting this shooter on the back. I asked what he was aiming at, which was a mistake. You don't even hint about ethics on that forum. I have done some research, and there was one shooter who has shot a 1 1/2" 5 shot group at 1000 Yards, and and said it was a fluke. Most records at 1000 yards start at 4" and get bigger. We are talking about 1200 yards now. This fellow never did say where he was aiming. Even if he was aiming for the head, that is a 2-3" target. Does anyone know a shooter who can consistantlly shoot a 2-3" group at 1200 yards? I would have to see it to believe it.

Should he have taken the shot? I don't think so. If the bullet had been a little off, it could have resulted in a broken jaw, blindness, torn windpipe, and so forth. If he was aiming for the lungs, he missed.

This seemed like an interesting story to bring up. Something to think about anyhow. From what I have read there are only a few taking shots like this.

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #47 on:** June 08, 2007, 02:55:35 PM »

Quote from: Mac11700 on June 08, 2007, 10:25:23 AM

Coyote:

Is the title of the thread really what your after here?

You will never have a consensus on it..ever...
...

Mac -

Yup, the title is what I wanted. The thread was started as a result of comments made in another thread which I did not want to have sidetracked. No consensus is expected, but as long as people play nice I'll let the thread go. It has been done before and I think it is a useful topic.

The goal is not to get everyone to start taking 500 yard shots but rather to recognize what is possible with practice. If it gets some folks to start practicing at longer ranges, say 300 or 400 yards, I'll consider it a successful thread. Such practice can only help them with the shorter shots.

Sourdough · « **Reply #48 on:** June 09, 2007, 03:33:17 AM »

Weatherby Accumark in .338/378, 6X15X50 Night Force scope, bi-pod, 110gr of IMR 7828 pushing a 225gr Nosler Accubond at 3210fps, and a leapold RX VI range finder with inclinemoter. 50 to 800 yards, hitting a 1 gal milk jug every shot. It took lots of time and practice to be able to do this. I think nothing of shooting a wolf at 500 yards, and this last fall I shot a Moose at 800 yards. The Moose took three steps and fell, one shot. Eventually I will work on out to 1000 yards, but again I will be hitting that milk jug at that range 100% of the time before I make that shot on a Moose. And I will probably take many Wolves at that range before I take a Moose.

NEF Handi Rifle in 30-06, Burris 3.5X10X50 w/Ballistic Plex, 165gr Sierria Boat Tail. 50 to 500 yards, no problem. Beyond 600 the bullet does not have the energy left to make a clean kill on a wolf. After having to chase two wolves down, one at 650 yards and the other at 700 yards, I no longer take shots beyond 500 yards with the 30-06. Hitting them is no problem, but like I said the bullet lacks the energy to make clean kills. That's why I went to a the Weatherby.

Wind? I usually hunt early in the mornings when there is no wind.

My favorite scnario, 0 degree, one hour after sunrise, crawl over a ridge and find a pack of wolves on a Moose kill. 500 to 600 yard shot. Determine the Alpha Male, wait till he is the farthest away and take the shot. The first thing the others hear is the bullet thump. They run from that loud close sound, straight towards me. At around 100 yards the Aplha Female will stop and look back to see why the Male is not following, I take my second shot. Again the rest of the pack run from the sound of the bullet striking, coming my way. Then wait till the pack is as close as I want them to be. After the third or forth shot they place the sound of the rifle with the strikes and scatter. An old wolfer taught me that long ago, also not to think of getting a wolf, think of getting the whole pack. It's not easy, but it can be done. After I take the whole pack, within two weeks there will be another pack running that same territory. There is no shortage of wolves here.

358Win · « **Reply #49 on:** June 09, 2007, 04:25:23 AM »

On live game animals that could have to suffer for days to die from infection, with my old eyes I draw the line at about 275 yards. Just because you might possibly be able to get away with the 400 or 500 shot even 70 or 80% of the time, doesn't mean it is a good idea. Even then you must have a absolutely steady rest or bipod, a great scope and range finder and know the wind conditions most of the way to the target. For me with my respect for the life and health of our game animals, it is a no way past 300 at the very most and I feel a lot more comfortable down around 200. Just my humble opinion as to what I am willing to do.

Rick Teal · « **Reply #50 on:** June 09, 2007, 05:07:30 AM »

"Are long shots ethical?"

Not by me they're not!

I've only ever shot one animal much beyond 100 yds, and usually they're much closer.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #51 on:** June 09, 2007, 10:38:47 AM »

SOURDOUGH , SGT YORK said the same thing about turkeys and German machineguners in the movie about him !

Sourdough · « **Reply #52 on:** June 09, 2007, 10:49:57 AM »

First and formost you have to look at your abilities. Second, the type of terrain is also a factor. When you are hunting in snow fields with deep snow and there is no brush or cover to hid behind. 500 to 600 yards often is as close as you are going to get without being seen. If I don't feel 100% sure of the shot I pass. I know my gun and my load intamately, and it has taken lots of practice and trial and error shot to get comfortable before going after game.

Most people won't invest the time and effort it takes to become proficient at shooting beyond 200 yards. Therefore it is not ethicale for them to shoot beyond that range. Yet others are capable and compatent to shoot at ranges beyond belief for some people. And if they have done their homework those shots are not unethical.

Sgt York, was a great Tennesseean. My childhood hero, along with the Magnificent Seven. Unfortunately I have not seen the movie, and don't know what he said.

roper · « **Reply #53 on:** June 09, 2007, 11:35:24 AM »

Quote from: 358Win on June 09, 2007, 04:25:23 AM

On live game animals that could have to suffer for days to die from infection, with my old eyes I draw the line at about 275 yards. Just because you might possibly be able to get away with the 400 or 500 shot even 70 or 80% of the time, doesn't mean it is a good idea. Even then you must have a absolutely steady rest or bipod, a great scope and range finder and know the wind conditions most of the way to the target. For me with my respect for the life and health of our game animals, it is a no way past 300 at the very most and I feel a lot more comfortable down around 200. Just my humble opinion as to what I am willing to do.

Here in Colorado during hunting season the hills are full of eyes and with turning someone in for a game violation now you can get moved up in the draw plus other things. Last year some hunters shot into a herd of elk figure they miss walk off headed down I-70 when they got pulled over by DOW also some hunters again shot into a herd of elk dropped more than they had tags for same thing cost them a alot of money bad thing is you can lose hunting rights if violation carry enough points even for life. Here in Colorado most game violation are tuned in by ehtical hunters.
We have a DOW law that state, "failure to make a reasonable attempt to track or kill animals that you wound or may have wounded". I don't think yardage has anything to do with checking on a miss or wounded animal here as they didn't spell out the law only applies to long range shooters. As an ethical hunter here if you make every attempt to get the animal and sometimes it cann't be done you haven't violated any game laws so who's to say the shooter doesn't respect game life.

nomosendero · « **Reply #54 on:** June 09, 2007, 05:37:03 PM »

Yes, within the range of our personal limits & the limits of our equipment under the PROPER enviormental conditions which occur when the shot is executed. When we know that we are within the limitations of all of these factors, then we are acting responsibly,period.

Does it matter if this distance dovetails with the opinions of people who never shoot at any appreciable distance, nope & it has no bearing on where I draw the line, it's a personal decision now & will be later as well.

brenneke · « **Reply #55 on:** June 09, 2007, 08:29:56 PM »

Howdy.
I have followed this thread with keen interest,but there is a few points i would like to clarify.I was a Sniping instructor for close to 12 Years and there is a few things that i learned.
1)A sniper should whenever possible be under 600 yd from his target,before committing to a shot.Why should it be different with hunting,where the majority of hunters do not posess the skill level of a full time sniper.The reason 600 yds are chosen to be the optimal distance is:Still easy to get away unseen(animals rarely shoot back) and the propability of a certain hit is vastly increased.
2)Believe me it is easier to kill a human than an animal-in most situations a sniper or designated Marksman just has to wound the enemy.
3)In the last 5 Years or so ,the distance is getting stretched and 1000yd shots are for sissies since 1500 yds and farther is the new challenge-well that seems to be the opinion amongst civilian shooters and milit. as well.Anyone that can produce groups,consistantly,in all hunting situations at those ranges,is more than welcome to hunt at that distance,but in my experience, there ain't too many that can do so.
I have a 1000+ yds range outside my front door and i use it at least 4 times a week,but i do try to keep my shots under 400yds on game.since hunting is the name of the game and not shooting.stalking is as much part of hunting as is shooting and for me it enhances the adventure of the hunt as well as the experience.
It is very interesting to see how well hunter think the shoot.On my range,i have metall plates (8"x12")hung,starting at 300yds for every 100yds all the way past a 1000yds.Under fieldcontiions i let them shoot 1 shot at the 300yds gong and i increase it if he hits it.It is quite the eye-opener when you see the results.
All i can say is :there is different strokes for different folks and as long as we are aware of our limitations we should be alright.

DakotaElkSlayer · « **Reply #56 on:** June 09, 2007, 08:56:19 PM »

My point about long range shooting really has nothing to do with the shooter's ability...

Lets say you spot this buck in a CRP field around 500yds. away. You have a WIZBANG magnum and a good rest so you take the shot. At the shot, the buck bounds away over a hill and disappears. In this featureless field of 3 foot tall weeds, are you going to be able to find where the buck was standing to determine if you hit him or not?

Jim

NONYA · « **Reply #57 on:** June 09, 2007, 10:44:21 PM »

i have seen a muledeer doe take a 160 gr 7mag through the boiler room and run over the hill leaving not a single drop of blood on her trail to where she lay dead 150 yards away,the isnt always a bloodtrial to find even with a good hit.

Todd1700 · « **Reply #58 on:** June 10, 2007, 12:32:29 AM »

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Anyone that can produce groups,consistently, in all hunting situations at those ranges,is more than welcome to hunt at that distance,but in my experience, there ain't too many that can do so.

I've never personally met anyone that can shoot that well but I sure encounter a lot of them on the inter-net.

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-in most situations a sniper or designated Marksman just has to wound the enemy.

Glad to hear a sniper instructor say this as well because this has been a point that I have argued with people before. In order to take ethical shots at game animals beyond 600 yards you would actually have to be a "better" shot than most military snipers. All a sniper wants to do at such distances (despite what you see in the movies) is hit his enemy solidly. Whether he hits head, chest, gut, groin, or just blows a leg off he has neutralized the enemy just the same. In fact some argue that wounding one of the enemy actually creates a greater burden for them than killing one of them. But when shooting at a game animal the goal is to kill it as humanely as possible by hitting a very specific vital area. A vital area that is considerably smaller than the entire body of the animal. I have a strong suspicion that there aren't a lot of people who can consistently place their first cold shot in a deers vital zone at distances greater than 600 yards under very variable field conditions. But as said several times before, each person has to live with the consequences of their own actions.

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So far you all have been talking about distances out to 700 yards. What about out to 1200 Yards?

There are some shooters who use exceptionally accurate rifles with target scopes. They have tested bullet drop so they can use come ups in elevation for that range. They use rangefinders, bench rests and so forth.

Yeah, I've watched some of their videos posted on line from time to time and seen them miss three times before getting the shot doped right and scoring a hit. Personally I think game animals deserve a little more respect than to just be used as a random pop up long range target. Those guys don't just take a long shot when they have no other choice they shoot from those distances on purpose like it's a game.

brenneke · « **Reply #59 on:** June 10, 2007, 05:00:14 AM »

@Todd1700
I totally agree with you and i think you nailed that one.