Are long shots ethical?

[nomosendero]

1,200 yards, wow! I think I would have to leave that to real Snipers with specialty long range rounds with better wind bucking rounds than a 308!

Let's not overlook Brenneke's last statement as his summation, " All I can say is: There are different strokes for different folks & as long as we are aware of our limitations we should be alright." Yes, that's what I have been saying all along !

Brenneke,I believe you nailed that one, for real.

[SHOOTALL]

I'm back east , and yes a few bean fields can stretch a gun barrel for sure so the concept of long range is not unheard of here ! I would like to add a few thoughts , here long range can be 50 yards if the deer is running at full speed ! because here we hunt with dogs and many times its the only shot ( we practice by putting a target in the center of an old tire and rolling it down a hill while shooting at it ) , second we may be restricted to a shot gun ! here we spend lots of cash on getting tight patterns with buck shot a 40 - 50 yard shot is not UN heard of with  000 buck in the right gun , the same can be said for B P and slugs , they all turn shots into long range due to one factor or another !mostly the effeteness of the gun at long range , does it have the energy to do the job at long range ?
How many of the rifles being used have a 1000 ft lbs energy left at 600 , 1000 yards ? how many of these long range shooters know when their gun crosses this point ? or when their round fall below supersonic ?
It must be fun to hunt a place where long shot are the norm , i don't mean that as a cut we can smell um most of the time , see the dust fly out of their coats  when we shoot them  !

[Freezer]

    I'm with Benchracer.  Like Clint Eastwood said," A mans got to know his limitations."  The first problem with a long shot is alot of hunters can't judge distance well.  Without knowing the distance within 25yrds knowing the trajectory is worthless.  As mentioned before wind can spoil the best aimed shot.  At 500 plus yeards the wind direction and speed can change depending on terrain.  Shot placement is another concern.  If I decide on a long shot (300 yrds or over) I prefer a head/neck shot.  If I miss, which I haven't yet I'll miss clean. 
    Last year I hunted Pa with a rifle I was familar with but had never shot.  I own a savage 99 in 308.  I used a Savage 99 in 300 Savage.  A nice buck presented himself at the end of the day at what I judged to be alittle short of 300yrds (my self imposed limit).  I decided to take the shot because I knew the trajectory of the cartridge and there was no wind.  I hit him at the base of the skull.  When I steped off the shot it was 281 yrds. 
    I have a pratice area where I shoot 583 yrds from time to time.  Also pratice judging distance in the field often by picking a spot and pacing the distance to or from.  Without a range finder or range finding pratice long shots are a shot in the dark.
    Pratice is the key to the long shot.  Pratice with the rifle and pratice with judging the distance.  Without pratice and self control the long shot is unethical but the blanket statement that long shots are unethical is a bad stereo type.

[Coyote Hunter]

In my own opinion, the only answer that makes sense is “It depends.”

It’s not just that there are a lot of variables, the variables change from shooter to shooter.  A few random thoughts:

1.   What is “long range” to one shooter might be 150 yards, to another it doesn’t start until somewhere much further downrange.   200 yards is a long ways for my eyes with iron sights, but it’s a chip shot with a scope.  300 yards with a scope seemed like a long ways until I tried it.  As a friend said about clay pigeons at 300 yards – they’re “too easy”.  And he was right.  We backed off to 500 yards and shot 4 pigeons with 7 shots.  The misses didn’t miss by much, certainly not enough that a coyote-sized animal would have noticed the difference, let alone larger game.

2.   Based on what I have seen at the range during sight-in days, some folks shoot better at 500 yards than others do at 100. 

3.   Some people use cartridges like the .30-30 that can’t deliver 1500fpe out to 100 yards, others use cartridges that deliver 1500fpe much further.   Some people carry laser rage finders, others don’t.  Some people use scopes with mil-dot or other drop compensating reticles or target turrets, others don’t.  Suitable equipment makes a difference.

4.   Some people claim that it isn’t sporting to shoot at long range (whatever that is), ignoring the fact that getting closer is not always an option.  I’d rather shoot a standing animal at 500 yards than a running animal at 50.  In fact, while I shoot running coyotes, I do not take running shots at game, and haven’t for many years. 

5.   Choosing not to shoot is always an option, one that responsible shooters often exercise, at ranges near and far.  The wind speed may be too high, visibility too poor, the animal may be skylined, whatever.  All good reasons not to shoot.  When conditions are right, however, why not shoot?

6.   The fact that a hunter is prepared to make a 500 yard shot (or a shot at whatever range) does not necessarily mean that the hunter will only take such shots, a fact which seems to escape some people who believe long shots are unethical.  Most hunters I know work to get as close as is reasonable and the long shot is the exception not the rule.  Other factors being equal, I would prefer to hunt with someone who has prepared for the 500 yard shot rather than someone who has never practiced beyond 100 or 200 yards.  One thing about long range shooting at the club, it has helped me at shorter ranges as well.

7.   The hunters I know that practice at extended ranges invariably know their equipment better than Joe A. Verage.

[nomosendero]

In my own opinion, the only answer that makes sense is “It depends.”

It’s not just that there are a lot of variables, the variables change from shooter to shooter.  A few random thoughts:

1.   What is “long range” to one shooter might be 150 yards, to another it doesn’t start until somewhere much further downrange.   200 yards is a long ways for my eyes with iron sights, but it’s a chip shot with a scope.  300 yards with a scope seemed like a long ways until I tried it.  As a friend said about clay pigeons at 300 yards – they’re “too easy”.  And he was right.  We backed off to 500 yards and shot 4 pigeons with 7 shots.  The misses didn’t miss by much, certainly not enough that a coyote-sized animal would have noticed the difference, let alone larger game.

2.   Based on what I have seen at the range during sight-in days, some folks shoot better at 500 yards than others do at 100. 

3.   Some people use cartridges like the .30-30 that can’t deliver 1500fpe out to 100 yards, others use cartridges that deliver 1500fpe much further.   Some people carry laser rage finders, others don’t.  Some people use scopes with mil-dot or other drop compensating reticles or target turrets, others don’t.  Suitable equipment makes a difference.

4.   Some people claim that it isn’t sporting to shoot at long range (whatever that is), ignoring the fact that getting closer is not always an option.  I’d rather shoot a standing animal at 500 yards than a running animal at 50.  In fact, while I shoot running coyotes, I do not take running shots at game, and haven’t for many years. 

5.   Choosing not to shoot is always an option, one that responsible shooters often exercise, at ranges near and far.  The wind speed may be too high, visibility too poor, the animal may be skylined, whatever.  All good reasons not to shoot.  When conditions are right, however, why not shoot?

6.   The fact that a hunter is prepared to make a 500 yard shot (or a shot at whatever range) does not necessarily mean that the hunter will only take such shots, a fact which seems to escape some people who believe long shots are unethical.  Most hunters I know work to get as close as is reasonable and the long shot is the exception not the rule.  Other factors being equal, I would prefer to hunt with someone who has prepared for the 500 yard shot rather than someone who has never practiced beyond 100 or 200 yards.  One thing about long range shooting at the club, it has helped me at shorter ranges as well.

7.   The hunters I know that practice at extended ranges invariably know their equipment better than Joe A. Verage.

Each one of these is a valid point. The one that really stands out is point #2. No doubt some folks shoot better @ 500 yds. than others do at 100 yds. But yet these that can't find their butt with both hands & can't shoot at 100 yards are some of the most critical of those who shoot at 500 yards. The same mentality shows up on the forum anytime the subject comes up, because they know they can't do it.

[NONYA]

Anyone could do it with a decent rifle w/ good optics,good loads and practice,practice being the key,even with a topend rifle,optics and handloads you wont get consistent at these ranges without the familiarity that comes with hands on practice.

[Sourdough]

Nonya:  I agree wholeheartedly, without practice no one can hit consistantly at any range.  Especially at extended ranges.

[SHOOTALL]

practice , that doesn't fit the go to Wal-mart buy a gun and a bunch of other neat junk and go hunting the next morning crowd !

[IOWA DON]

I had used my .338-.378 on an Alaska moose with the original barrel but is was not accurate. Knowing that more Alaska hunts would probably not be made I decided to rebarrel it and switch scopes to make it more the configuration of a long range sniper gun. The choice for a new barrel was .300-.378 Weatherby or stay with the .338-378 Weatherby. The .300 version has a slightly flatter trajectory but with a scope with a range compensating reticle that is not the main priority. I thought the main priority was to be able to shoot a bullet with killing capabilities at maximum range. I ran a bunch of computer simulations and it appeared the Nosler 225-grain Accubond and a couple other .338 caliber bullets would have sufficient power at 800 yards plus sufficient velocity to expand the bullets at that range. A ballistics technician at Nosler agreed their bullet would expand at over 800 yards. My gun (with a 28-inch barrel) shoots it at 3,330 fps. Also he said that the larger frontal diameter of the .338 compared to the .300 would kill better at very long ranges. The deer I got at long distances confirm that the bullets do perform well even at 700 yards. I also have a 7MM STW but do not think it would be adaquate for deer at extreme distances because of lack of killing power. Anyway, I tried to cover all the issues including long range bullet performance before thinking I had a 600 to 800 yard deer rifle. If I had I just gotten a laser rangefinder and a range compensating reticle for the scope on my 7MM STW I may have had a 500 yard gun, but using it at 700 yards would probably result in unrecovered deer even though I would probably be able to put the bullets into their vital areas.

[Sourdough]

Iowa Don:  Trust me the .338/378 with 225gr Nosler Accubond will put a deer down at 800 yards and beyond.  This last fall I shot a bull Alaska Moose (Think Draft Horse on stilts) at 800 yards.  Three steps and he folded.  Bullet had taken out both lungs completely, and nicked the heart, after going through a rib and splintering about two inches of it.  Both lungs were turned to jello, and if it will do that to a Moose a whitetail with this cartridge will be no problem. 

[SHOOTALL]

Whitetail deer , think Shetland pony thats been thru. a dryer , smaller target different problem !
Lets face it if you can do it you are a hero if you miss you are a slob ! Not much middle ground around this site !

[ralph02]

I shoot competitively in what might be considered long range matches at known distances.  No longer able to hunt, just target matches.  I manage to go through many rounds of rifle shells each year, I am sure many more than most hunters.  I know my rifle well and its traits in different conditions.  We have different ideas as to what is ethical and what is not.  Maybe a chance shot at a coyote is more ethical than a chance shot at a deer.  The fact remains that conditions will make even to most experienced competitive shooter drop a shot more times than we would care to admit.  Breaking the shot is one thing, doing it at longer ranges and reading the conditions that will make you miss, is something else again.  I have seen no comment on mirage, only on wind.  I have seen the over 1000yd. shooting at animals program.  I will not see it again.  Enough said.

[nomosendero]

Whitetail deer , think Shetland pony thats been thru. a dryer , smaller target different problem !
Lets face it if you can do it you are a hero if you miss you are a slob ! Not much middle ground around this site !

Then, wouldn't that be true at any range, near or far?

[SHOOTALL]

Yes it would without doubt !
which only brings us back to " it depends on the shooters skill level "
Lets face it if you have a skill to shoot to 200 yards its hard to admit another guy can shoot out to 800 yards as well as you at 200 ! This is America we are all born riflemen RIGHT !
Sometimes it seems hard to accept the skill of others or lack of our own skill !
But in the field we owe the animal our best effort !

[nomosendero]

Yes it would without doubt !
which only brings us back to " it depends on the shooters skill level "
Lets face it if you have a skill to shoot to 200 yards its hard to admit another guy can shoot out to 800 yards as well as you at 200 ! This is America we are all born riflemen RIGHT !
Sometimes it seems hard to accept the skill of others or lack of our own skill !
But in the field we owe the animal our best effort !

That is right & I believe it tells us why these threads go on & on & then in a couple of months it starts all over again. That is also why some never accept the validity of shooting within YOUR limitations & letting it go at that, but instead argue when they have no actual experience anyway.

[SHOOTALL]

The attitude is all shots are alike , when they are not , you may be good and can make 800 yard shots most of the time !
It is your obligation to know when you can't and hold the shot !

[nomosendero]

Amen, & the same principle applies when we bowhunt, MZ or handgun hunt. We must look at the shot opportunity & know if it is
within our ability & equipment & if the angle & ALL other factors is right, regardless of the weapon we are using at the time.

[Sourdough]

Shootall:  I was refering to having enough energy left to do the job when the bullet gets there.  At 800 yards the .338/378 Weatherby has the energy to make clean kills and that is very important.  The 30-06 does not have enough energy left to make clean kills beyond 600 yards.  The remaining energy is a factor that a lot of people keep forgeting.  Our Bull Moose have the bodies of a large draft horse.  Our wolves are the size of whitetail deer, only heavier.  When the bullet gets there will it have enough energy left to expand.  That is why I no longer shoot wolves beyond 500 yards with my 30-06.  At 650 and 700 yards I had to go and run the wolves down, after hitting them in an area that at closer ranges would have put them down.  The bullets (165gr Sierria boat tails) did not expand.  The 700 yard shot I found the bullet just behind the shoulder blade, broke the shoulder but did not go any farther.  Bullet was slightly deformed, but not expanded well. 

[SHOOTALL]

sourdough , I have no problem with an informed well seasoned hunter taking any shot he feels confident with ! And believe these hunters exist , i enjoy long range shooting and have a good idea of what it takes , I am limited to 500 yards , due to our range , i can hit clay pigeons with my 300 win mag , i can also hit a 24x24 steel plate with a 44 mag. ! no brag intended , i have been doing so for about 30 years now , all it takes is knowledge and pratice and a commitment to hold back when it feels wrong !
That being said some of the post just don't sound like they come from someone who has been there and got the t-shirt ! if you catch my drift ! and others you can tell you don't want to bet against them !
and i agree , its no need to send a bullet that will fail !

[IOWA DON]

I have a non-hunter brother-in-law. He is a conservative, not an anti hunting guy, but just never hunted. He feels that hunting from a deer stand is not ethical. Not because it wounds deer, but because he feels it is too easy, like shooting them from a car window. That is, the deer don't see the hunter and the hunter gets an easy close range shot. To my recollection I have only shot one deer from a tree stand with a gun (3 with a bow). At 30 yards it was not a challenging shot. My not using tree stands is not because I consider them unethical, but our Iowa gun deer seasons start in December and I get cold very easy, especially in a tree stand. Last fall I spotted a bedded deer and sneaked up on it and finally got it from about 125 yards with a left hand shot from the prone position (I am right handed). The lay of the ground and grass in my way prevented a right hand shot. It was rewarding and my brother-in-law would have approved! However, I think that shoot had more potential to wound a deer my long range shooting. My 657 yard deer last winter went like this. I got 3 deer in the same set-aside land the previous year, but last winter the deer did not seem to be there. However, one day when my wife was with me I spotted 3 bedded deer. I got the range measured and set up shooting bags for the shot, and there was about a 5 mph wind, directly head on. The largest doe was broadside but bedded down in several inches of snow so only about 9 inches of its body was showing. I had the proper part of the range compensating reticle on it and was trying to decide if I should shoot with snow blocking part of its vital area. Suddenly there were several shots off in the distance and the deer stood up. Note that I doubt that the several shots got several deer. More likely some short range hunters made several misses. Anyway, I suddenly had a larger target and shot. The 3 deer ran, plus another dozen or so deer jumped up and ran off. I did not see mine fall down but did see a strange looking spot about 50 yards farther away. It took quite a while to get there through deep snow but it was the deer. Bullet performance was very good as there was a blood trail a blind man could have followed. I would admit there may be some temptation to assume misses on long range hits as one is less likely to see the game clearly go down. One needs practice marking exactly the last place a deer was seen and prbably put in more effort tracking them down.

[lilabner]

You could just as well ask if short shots are ethical. In the case of a hunter subject to buck fever and with limited shooting practice, any kind of shot might be considered unethical. On the other hand, a skilled shooter from a solid rest without serious wind doping problems and with a good fix on range and shot angle can do very well at long range. Look at ballistic tables and you see that bullet drop gets very steep beyond 400 yards and wind drift is considerable. The shooter should be confident in making a good hit at whatever range is involved. "Hope shots" are unethical.  Pronghorns invite long range shooting and many are killed at long range. As it is usually windy, shot placement can be a serious problem. The fish and game people say many pronghorns are wounded and not retrieved. Elk and moose offer a bigger, better target for long range shooting if the cartridge used carries enough energy to do the job. 

[NONYA]

Every year I see lopes that have been wounded and lost,the first weekend is always the worst.Most of these are wounded by "herd shooters" who shoot at them at full speed,range is not the only issue,it is just as important to have the ethics to waoit for a decent shot opportunity.

[jdt48653]

ask kreg slack,he has shot prairie dogs as far out as 3,125 yards.
from an article by steve hugel in (the accurate rifle magazine) february 2002.

the only way i could bring up the article was to type in the name (steve hugel) on google,
and scroll to the bottom of the page.
article name- THE QUEST FOR THE TWO MILE PRAIRIE DOG.  good reading.

[Coyote Hunter]

You could just as well ask if short shots are ethical. ... 

In my experience I have seen more unethical short range shots than I have long range shots.  Such as a young man shooting into a herd of elk with a  .243Win,range about 100 yards, turning to his dad and shrugging the shoulders when nothing dropped, then everyone walking to a pickup and driving away.  Not remotely likely it was a miss.  Just one of many.

[SHOOTALL]

Does it matter what the critter is ? would a ground hog vs. a deer make a difference in the shot being ethical ? Is it OK to take a long shot at vermin , if you wouldn't a deer ? or a deer in an area where they are becoming vermin ?

[IOWA DON]

TO SHOOTALL - You asked whether it matters that deer are so numerous they become vermin. My answer is yes in a round-about way. Not because it is OK to wound a vermin deer or any other animal. Shooting deer at long range allows me to shoot more deer than if I limited my shots to close range. I think that it's OK for me to shoot more deer (does) as my fellow hunters do not seem to want to buy permits to shoot them. But if the resource was scarce maybe maybe I would be guilty of being a "game-hog". TO EVERYONE - If it were legal to shoot bucks with rifles and I were to shoot the largest buck in Iowa at long range, some of my fellow hunters would complain that it was not fair, when they could not hit the vital area of a deer at half the distance. But is it fair that some hunters have relatives allowing them to hunt on better deer habitat than is available to me? Is it fair that some hunters have guides who may set them up in an area inhabited bu several very large bucks? Is it fair that some hunters have more money than me and can lease the best deer hunting areas? There is a human tendency for people to consider the other guy as having an unfair advantage when the other guy is successful. I do not care for drive hunting. The hunters can kick a very large buck out of its bed and some lunskilled, but lucky hunter can get a shot at it. I am very unlikely to get a shot at a very large buck because they are not up in the daytime or bedded down where I have a shot within shotgun slug range. Is drive hunting ethical because I don't like it?

[brenneke]

ask kreg slack,he has shot prairie dogs as far out as 3,125 yards.
from an article by steve hugel in (the accurate rifle magazine) february 2002.

the only way i could bring up the article was to type in the name (steve hugel) on google,
and scroll to the bottom of the page.
article name- THE QUEST FOR THE TWO MILE PRAIRIE DOG.  good reading.

I do believe, he did ,but not with the first and only shot.Wandering shots into your target does not constitute precision shooting.Speaking in military terms:A maschine gunner who wanders his shots into a given target at extended range would also be considered a Sniper, would he?He is doing exactly the same only with bursts.I don't believe,walking shots into a extended target (game) has anything to do with ethical hunting.

[SHOOTALL]

IOWA DON, know where you are coming from , we use dogs and i read all the snob writers like Dick Metcalf who write things like I don't want a dog to do my work ! Then they hunt all types of birds with a dog ! heck my dogs get ticked if i leave them at home ! We are loaded with does here also !
My point was long or short , the hunter must be able to live with his deed !

[jdt48653]

Brenneke, knowing what i know about Kreg Slack he would never try such a shot on a deer size animal.however properly equipt long range hunters who know what they are doing,and make it a practice to make these type of shots have a very high success rate!(at a much closer range)
and should not be thrown into the same category as your typical week-end hunter,trying the same thing!!

[Coyote Hunter]

...I don't believe,walking shots into a extended target (game) has anything to do with ethical hunting.

So what about a well-prepared hunter who laser ranges an animal, determines the wind to be virtually nil, twists his target knob accordingly (or uses mil-dots or whatever), uses a suitable rest and makes a long one-shot kill?  Ethical or not?