some new ramblings on lead.

[Lloyd Smale]

I was in a discussion on cast bullets and long range shooting on another forum and a cast bullet rifle shooter made me do some serious thinking. Ive never been much of an experiementer with cast in rifles and thought they were two different things but he kind of opened my eyes up. Some of it backed up what i allready beleive and some of it had never crossed my mind. He told me that they use a spitzter for a reason in long range shooting. The reason is that it is longer which gives it more ballictic coefiiency and also less of the nose area of the bullet is in contact with the rifling and thus less is being deformed. He said they want a bullet to get a slow start and accellerate in the rifleing to prevent the bullet from deforming so slow powder are the name of the game. The idea is to get the bullet out of the gun in the same shape every time. His point to me and it may be a very vailid one is that ive preached for many years that some bullet designs out of a handgun dont fly well. He thought and could be right that its the gun making that bullet bad not the bullet being bad.  I think back to some of my loading and it does back him up some. Ive allways had my best luck with a gun that in spec. using a hard bullet. If your asking a out of spec gun to use soft bullets to bump up to bore size you might get decent 25 yard accuracy but theres no way that a bullet that is not consistant is going to group at 300 plus yards. Now i took another look at my long range results and the fact that ive allways had better luck starting a bullet out at 1200 fps then at 1000 or less. I allways took it for granted it was because the bullet was spinning faster and thus stabilizing better. Could it be that the fact that to get those kind of velocitys out of a handgun you have to use the slowest burning powders and the fact that you are strating that bullet out a little slower threw its punishing run through the forcing cone be just as much of a factor. Ive stated in print here a few times about my thoughts on the 421429 and the rcbs 270saa. and the fact that they have allways ran better for me when i got the velocity up to 1200 fps. Now i think back to my casting and for the most part i consider them plinking bullets in the 44 and 45 and tend to cast them a little softer then the bullets i will seriously hunt with. Because i use them mostly for just blasting and deer hunting at the most there rarely pushed over 1000 fps and usually with a fast powder for economic reasons. One more thought. How many times have you heard that someone shooting a faster burning powder got leading as switched to a slower burning speed and cure his problem. Its usally blamed on the fact that the faster powder is hotter and is melting the bullet. Ive yet to see a bullet that was melted by burning other then flame cutting in a mismatched gun. Id about bet the fact that for years it was preached that fast powders and soft bullet bumping up to bore size causes as much problem as it helps. When that soft slug slams into that forcing cone and deforms to fit the gun what do you think the chances are that its going to lead a little. Again start it with a slower powder and let the pressure build a little slower and its trip through the forcing cone may not me as damaging. Your bullet doesnt really need to seal the moment it hits the forcing cone. Ive got a few guns that were taylor throated and that about gurantees that your not sealing right in the forcing cone and i get absoultely no leading with them.

[jhalcott]

lloyd, you keep thinking and you'll get a head ache!

[Racer X]

How many times have you heard that someone shooting a faster burning powder got leading as switched to a slower burning speed and cure his problem. 

In my SBHH 45 Colt, the only load that did not lead at all was 7.2 grains of 231 shooting Mt. Baldy 250 grain Keiths sized to 454 diameter. This was shooting through 453 throats.

The second least amount of leading I have ever gotten in this gun was with the same bullet sized to .452 with 25 grains of H110, which is a pretty hot load. Most of the leading was at the muzzle, which indicated a lube failure. I have shot several moderate loads to heavy loads with powders faster than H110, using this same bullet (8 grains Unique, 10 grains Unique, 11.5 grains AA#5, 18.5 grains 2400, 20 grains 2400) and alway got significant leading. 

[Lloyd Smale]

using some of the info ive picked up lately it could be that your not experiencing a lube failure with leading in the end of your barrel. It is possible but is not the only answer. Using a slower buring powder like 110 your not reaching peak pressure till the bullet is farther down the barrel then i would be with a faster burning powder and it could be that when your bullet is reactiing to the peak pressure toward the end of your barrel that it is deform slighly and causeing the leading. Try reaching those same velocitys using a chrograph by using both a faster and slower buring powder and see if it changes where your bullet reaches peak pressure in your gun. It may cure your leading.

[HEAD0001]

It is alot of fun talking about these topics.  I have a couple of experiences you may find interesting.  I have a pet load of 40.0 grains of RL7, a cast 405 grain(straight WW), and Carnuba Red lube(50-50 mix with White lube).  I shoot this load out of four different 45-70's.  Two single shot's(Sharp's and 1885 High-Wall), and two lever actions(1895 Marlin, and 1886 Winchester).  The only difference in the load is OAL, and crimping.  I seat the two single shots out to the lands, I seat and crimp the other load shorter to function easier in the lever's.  The load chrono's at 1600fps-give or take in all four rifles.

I get no leading, and great accuracy in the single shots.  IMO there is very little deformation in the bullet.  Again IMO it is due to no bullet jump, good sizing, and a good lube.  Whe I shoot these longer cartridges in the lever's(they will chamber with maybe a little land's touching or the lands slightly pushing the bullet in a little farther-the bullet for my SS's are not crimped), they perform fantastic.  The problem is I can only shoot them single shot style only.  When I crimp the load and have some bullet jump, then I show some signs of leading, and accuracy is not as good as when I load the longer cartridge single shot style.  This leads me to believe that you are spot on, with what you say. 

I just bought a book on Paper Patching and long distance shooting.  I believe if I shoot a paper patched Postell style bullet-seated out to the lands in my single shots, my accuracy will improve even more.  Again this puts your comments spot on.  We will see.  Tom.

[Lloyd Smale]

just for grins and to test these therory a little. Next time you cast try casting them a tad harder. go with say 2/3 ww 1/3 lyno and try them like that in the lever and also try both hardness of the bullets with a tad slower powder in the lever and see if moving the pressure peak down the barrel further helps. Also how about letting me drewl on a compete picture of that sharps!! Its been a dream gun of mine for years.

[HEAD0001]

I do not doubt what you are saying, when you say add 1/3 Lino.  I do have 100# of Lino laying around.  The problem is that I am lazy.  I bought into the hype(years ago) that you can only shoot pure lead in MZ's.  IMO that theory is bunk.  I shoot straight WW in my ML's without any problem's at all.  I try to keep things simple.  I shoot Nickle plated casings in my single shots(without crimp).  And I shoot straight brass in my lever's(with a crimp).  This makes it easy to know which is which.  This, combined with my load of RL7 keeps thing simple.  I have found a load that shoots great in all four of my 45-70's.  I know that is hard to believe.  I know I could probably fine tune a bit.  The problem is that all my rifles shoot better than I do.  So improved loads would probably be a waste. 

I shoot alot, I buy 10 pounds of RL7 at a time.  And I really enjoy casting my own.  I do not understand it, but there is something about casting, and hunting, and harvesting with your own bullets.  I have shot deer out to 250 yards with my 45-70's, and when you make those shots people do not believe you unless they see you do it.  I have been doing alot of shooting with my Sharp's lately.  I am getting pretty good out to 350 yards.  My goal this year is a clean kill at 350 with my Sharp's.  I am pretty sure I will be ready.  Tom.

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive seen some amazing hits by guys with sharps rifles that knew what they were doing on the loading bench and with the trigger out to a 1000 yards so your 350 goal is certainly doable and the 4570 has pleanty of punch at that range to drop about any game animal.

I do not doubt what you are saying, when you say add 1/3 Lino.  I do have 100# of Lino laying around.  The problem is that I am lazy.  I bought into the hype(years ago) that you can only shoot pure lead in MZ's.  IMO that theory is bunk.  I shoot straight WW in my ML's without any problem's at all.  I try to keep things simple.  I shoot Nickle plated casings in my single shots(without crimp).  And I shoot straight brass in my lever's(with a crimp).  This makes it easy to know which is which.  This, combined with my load of RL7 keeps thing simple.  I have found a load that shoots great in all four of my 45-70's.  I know that is hard to believe.  I know I could probably fine tune a bit.  The problem is that all my rifles shoot better than I do.  So improved loads would probably be a waste. 

I shoot alot, I buy 10 pounds of RL7 at a time.  And I really enjoy casting my own.  I do not understand it, but there is something about casting, and hunting, and harvesting with your own bullets.  I have shot deer out to 250 yards with my 45-70's, and when you make those shots people do not believe you unless they see you do it.  I have been doing alot of shooting with my Sharp's lately.  I am getting pretty good out to 350 yards.  My goal this year is a clean kill at 350 with my Sharp's.  I am pretty sure I will be ready.  Tom.