An H&R that does 4,600 fps!!!

[HonkerHunter]

I've been burning up the phone lines and computer looking for something FAST that I could have one of my H&R ultra rifles built around and I have finally found it. I have been reading on varmint hunters magazine and precision shooting magazine about a new cartridge that is called the "5/35 SMc"! I called the cartridge designer and spoke with him on the phone for about an hour or so on his cartridge and even found out that he had patents on the cartridge as well. The cartridge is a Norma 6mm bench rest case that has been necked down to 5mm or else the same bullet that is used in the 204 Ruger. The cartridge designer - Robert B. Smalley had redesigned the shoulder angle for a better powder burn and a pretty good increase in velocity. He told me that he could easily push 30 grain bullets to 4,600 fps with no presure signs whatsoever and the faster and harder you pushed it, the better it shot. I got to see one of these cartridges in a high dollar bolt action last week and was just wondering what that round would perform like in the H&R. Does anybody here have any dealings with this cartridge? If you guys think these guns can hold a cartridge like this, I'll go ahead and place an order for one as my gunsmith has a reamer in stock and can make me a barrel in about a month or so if this is something worthwhile. You guys tell me what you think and is it something that you would do. I would just use this barrel for coyotes and jack rabbits where the shots would be spaced far en ough apart so the barrel would not get to hot.

HH

[Victor3]

That sounds interesting.

I'm curious - Did you by chance ask if there was enough testing yet done with this round to determine if there is any throat-erosion problem on the bbls used with it?

[Graybeard]

Robert B. Smalley had redesigned the shoulder angle for a better powder burn and a pretty good increase in velocity. He told me that he could easily push 30 grain bullets to 4,600 fps with no presure signs whatsoever

IF the bullet makes it out of the barrel that is an excellent pressure sign. Without pressure signs no bullet would come out of the barrel. This guy is totally and completely full of BS and there is no way to get around that. If he has not had the loads pressure tested then it might be that the reason the bullet is moving that fast is that it's running BLUE PILL proof load pressures which might turn a Handi Rifle into a grenade. Without pressure tested data it's totally foolish to jump into wildcat cartridges and assume it's safe. Ask for the pressure test data and if he's not got it make no assumptions about safety of it.

That is my really big gripe about wildcatting and even AI rounds, there is just no or at best extremely little pressure tested safe data available for them. You just absolutely cannot safely make assumptions of pressure from the various "pressure indicators" used for so many years before pressure testing equipment became widely available. Time and time again it has been proven they JUST DO NOT WORK.

[Mitch in MI]

How are you going to attach this barrel to your H&R?
You can't make a .204 BR from any existing H&R barrel. The 204 Ruger is the only one with a small enough bore, and the chamber in that is already way too long, so this barrel is going to have to be totally custom. The .204 is 1.54" at the shoulder, the Norma BR is 1.07"

[bearbeater]

WHY??
Bearbeater

[xhare]

A number of wildcats that have been taken to the factory level had their performance downgraded for exactly the same reason Graybeard discusses.  The 7mm STW is a perfect case in point.  As published in Shooting Times, the performance was substantially greater than the 7mm Rem Mag.  This had everyone excited and custom rifles chambered for 7mm STW started showing up everywhere.  So, the ammunition/rifle companies took a close look, and eventually brought out 7mm STW rifles and ammunition.  The only problem is that the performance of 7mm STW as a factory cartridge is only slightly better than the 7mm Rem Mag and nowhere near the performance illustrated in the earlier magazine articles.  Truth was, when the ammunition companies started testing some of the 7mm STW loads they found that many were WAY past 65000 psi.  I read some published loads exceeded 80000 psi.  This may have appeared safe in tighly chambered cutom rifle built to perfection, but even then that kind of pressure is taking a big risk, and certainly factory rifles with factory ammunition with factory lawyers is not going to safely get anywhere near that kind of pressure. 

Now, in a Handi-Rifle a 65000 psi cartridge is pushing it for the design, but is possible.  I believe the 270 Winchester is there or close.  Likely this wildcat you are interested well exceeds safe pressures, but this guy's super strong bolt action built to extremely tight tolerances does not show pressure signs (or he does not admit to them).

No Handi-rifle is a strong as a front-locking bolt action, period.  What you can get away with in a bolt action (ie 80000 psi) would cause a Handi-Rifle to fail, perhaps catastrophically. 

[trotterlg]

With 30 gr bullets you can make 4,600 fps out of a hot 22-250.  Don't believe everything you read, I would say that is quite a lot of hype and a little short on reality.  Larry

[Mitch in MI]

Now, in a Handi-Rifle a 65000 psi cartridge is pushing it for the design, but is possible.  I believe the 270 Winchester is there or close.

I used to think that, but a couple of years ago Fred M pointed out to me that the long leade on the Handi chamber guarantees you will never top 50k with a factory 270 load.

[Mac11700]

If you have the need for speed...with the 55gr bullets you can easily get 4000 fps out of a 243 Bull barrel as well...If you drop down in bullet diameter...using the same case...your pressures are going to be a-lot higher..CUP & PSI aren't the same thing BTW..so when looking in reloading manuals..just remember this..

Like Bill said...not much if any pressure data exist for this round...you can find out about a bunch of the 20 cals that are around here..http://www.angelfire.com/sd/6mmackley/twentycaliber.html...Since your in contact with the designer of the cartridge..do ask him if he has done any pressure testing on it..or if he is just doing visual inspections of the cases..He most likely is doing this for bolt guns..no break actions...

My advise is if you want one of these..look to getting a used small action Savage and re-barreling it..

X-Share..the 7mm STW will beat the 7mm Mag across the board by an average of 200-300fps...and do it safely...albeit it at a cost...For a side by side comparison check out the 2006 Hodgdon's annual...you will see what I mean..

Mac

[Mitch in MI]

Looks like the loading guides are showing 3900-4000 for 40gr in a .22BR.
I estimate 4200-4300 with a 30gr and book loads in the .22BR, and slightly slower in a .20BR.
4600fps does not compute.

[Mac11700]

Looks like the loading guides are showing 3900-4000 for 40gr in a .22BR.
I estimate 4200-4300 with a 30gr and book loads in the .22BR, and slightly slower in a .20BR.
4600fps does not compute.

It does if you factor in a lot higher pressure and a longer barrel to attain the 4600fps..

Mac

[nomosendero]

Robert B. Smalley had redesigned the shoulder angle for a better powder burn and a pretty good increase in velocity. He told me that he could easily push 30 grain bullets to 4,600 fps with no presure signs whatsoever

IF the bullet makes it out of the barrel that is an excellent pressure sign. Without pressure signs no bullet would come out of the barrel. This guy is totally and completely full of BS and there is no way to get around that. If he has not had the loads pressure tested then it might be that the reason the bullet is moving that fast is that it's running BLUE PILL proof load pressures which might turn a Handi Rifle into a grenade. Without pressure tested data it's totally foolish to jump into wildcat cartridges and assume it's safe. Ask for the pressure test data and if he's not got it make no assumptions about safety of it.

That is my really big gripe about wildcatting and even AI rounds, there is just no or at best extremely little pressure tested safe data available for them. You just absolutely cannot safely make assumptions of pressure from the various "pressure indicators" used for so many years before pressure testing equipment became widely available. Time and time again it has been proven they JUST DO NOT WORK.

HH, I would advise you to heed Mr. Graybeard on this one. It is true that the old, what we thought were tried and true pressure signs can be trickey. This is further complicated by a good rifle with a custom chamber, "trued up receiver", etc.  When one of these rfles is "true with the universe", so to speak, pressure signs can show up a bit late for sure. If I don't have any of these signs, plus I have good case life, then things look better & safer. A lot of experience comes into play here. I load for some Ackleys, some give a good increase & some offer very little, no need to get into that here other than to say that the expectations should be modest. Besides, Ackleys offer other advantages such as VERY little trimming &
a chance to start with a "clean" chamber in bolt guns only for me, for reasons previously discussed & not to be discussed again by me.

I have read alot about this new design in the past & let me say that I am skeptical !!! Savage looked at the round & I think that idea has been dropped. I would bet they have a reason. Case shape & perceived performance differences have been kicked around for years, hence short mags, yada, yada! You could have small differences due to shape with vel. and or accuracy, but it is not an exact science. I believe the accuracy & velocity
advantage that this "designer" gives is unproven & largely BS.

And to experiment with this round especially in a weak design as a Handi would be folly in my view.   

[xhare]

I am not knocking the 7mm STW, but I think that data you read in current manuals is "tamer" than what was initially published in some magazines. I have read some material on this in one of my Handloader magazines in an article about case capacity/vs velocities.  Probably a John Barsness article.  His basic point was an old one really, that velocity increases at about 1/4th the rate of capacity (if I remember this right).  A 10% increase in capacity , results in a 2.5% increase in velocity (roughly), all other things being equal.  Apparently some of the early 7mm STW data got more velocity than it "should" have. 

They don't call it Wildcatting for nothing. 

[nomosendero]

I am not knocking the 7mm STW, but I think that data you read in current manuals is "tamer" than what was initially published in some magazines. I have read some material on this in one of my Handloader magazines in an article about case capacity/vs velocities.  Probably a John Barsness article.  His basic point was an old one really, that velocity increases at about 1/4th the rate of capacity (if I remember this right).  A 10% increase in capacity , results in a 2.5% increase in velocity (roughly), all other things being equal.  Apparently some of the early 7mm STW data got more velocity than it "should" have. 

They don't call it Wildcatting for nothing. 

We did not have RL25, Retumbo & several other powders when Layne wrote the article. These powders help the STW more than the 7Rem Mag.
So yes, the STW is a good deal faster. The mag. boys don't say slower powder is better for nothing.

[Bob_VT]

I was under the impression that the velocity and higher amount of spin will destroy almost any bullet into fragments.

[Fred M]

Here is some food for thought for a 17 caliber.
5mmx223, 20gr Horn V-max, 25.13gr H4198, Fill ratio 100%
PSI(MAP) 49615psi,  MV 4537ft.

That is smoking pretty fast, the bullet will perhaps vaporize and never get anywhere. This is by no means a dangerous load, less pressure than a 204 Ruger.

[trotterlg]

I have a 17 Remington (Savage 10 action) for a Coyote rifle, 24 inch Green Mountian 9 twist barrel and it will turn 25gr Bergers to dust at 4,300fps.  I have no trouble with the 30 gr bergers at 3900.  If you want to go fast find your self a very slow twist barrel.  Larry

[Mac11700]

I am not knocking the 7mm STW, but I think that data you read in current manuals is "tamer" than what was initially published in some magazines. I have read some material on this in one of my Handloader magazines in an article about case capacity/vs velocities.  Probably a John Barsness article.  His basic point was an old one really, that velocity increases at about 1/4th the rate of capacity (if I remember this right).  A 10% increase in capacity , results in a 2.5% increase in velocity (roughly), all other things being equal.  Apparently some of the early 7mm STW data got more velocity than it "should" have. 

They don't call it Wildcatting for nothing. 

There will always be someone who pushes the envelope further than what they should...just like there will always be faster barrels than the run of the mill ones as well..The 7mm STW has always been faster than the 7mm Mag...most data I have seen since it came out has always shown between 11 grains & 16 grains more capacity than the 7 mag...and accordingly  it has always shown a higher pressure as well..As with any wildcat..velocity varies...Pick up a copy of the Hodgdon's Annual...and also the Nosler 5th edition manual...It has a nice fore ward by the cartridges designer Layne Simpson...He says "

I created the 7mm STW by necking down the 8mm Remington Mag case soon after it came out...Max speeds for it fired from a 26" barrel for the 140-160-175 gr. bullets is 3400-3200-3100fps on average..That's about 200fps faster than the 7mm Mag and about the same speed as the slightly larger 7mm Rem Ultra mag..

...So...if folks want to drive them harder than that..they are on their own...

Mac

[alsaqr]

Graybeard is right on with this one.  There is all that hype that can seldom be matched in the field with a practical rifle.   There was the guy from Fallon, Nevada who necked down the .50 BMG case to .30 caliber and claimed a velocity of 3,700 fps from a  44 inch barrel using a 250 grain bullet.  The load used 170 grains of AA8700.  The .300 Weatherby will start a 250 grain bullet from a 26 inch barrel at 2,850 fps- law of diminishing returns.

One of my favorite small bore guns is a .17 K-Hornet.  It will start a 25 grain bullet at over 3,500 fps using 11.5 grains of H4227.   The .17 Remington uses about twice the powder load for an additional 500 fps.  It ain't worth it.

[Fred M]

Quote.
The .17 Remington uses about twice the powder load for an additional 500 fps.  It ain't worth it.

If every body had this attitude we would not be shooting 22-250's, 243, 7mm mags, 300Wby etc. If the extra performance is not worth your while then go
back and stuff your blunderbuss with home made black powder and use
stones for bullets.

It is not unreasonable to assume 4600ft in a 17, 20, or 22 using a 6br case
 with light bullets. It is nothing new to get 2900 feet with a 125gr 30cal bulett with 34gr of powder from a 6BR case. That too is done all the time.
 
The case is big enough to use a powder that gradually builds up pressure. This is nothing new and it's been done all the time. Also it is not an endevor for a novice reloader. Wildcatting is a very investigative and progressive hobby, and
it is not simply stuffing a case full of powder and hope for the best.

[DakotaElkSlayer]

How many rounds before you shoot-out the barrel???

Jim

[Fred M]

Quote.

How many rounds before you shoot-out the barrel???

This is a question often ask  when the talk is about overly large cases and
small bores. The simple answer is " it depends on what kind of powder you
use and how much the chamber pressure is and how much available volume
the case has.

Take the 220 Howell a larger case then the 220 Swift, using more powder than the Swift it produces quite a bit mor velocity. It aslo has a much better barrel life than the Swift.

The reason is a much lower chamber pressure like 46kpsi.with a slower burning powder. To use this kind of powder you need a bigger case. The design of such a case requires the knowledge and manipulation of  the seven powders parameters. With todays sophisticated soft ware it is not all that difficult.

[quickdtoo]

Fred,

How does a .22-284 or .17-06 Schneider compute? I've read they need to use machined bullets if they use standard twist barrels, or the bullets fragment due to the rotational forces. Or they use a slower twist barrel. Neither is practical, but interesting.

thx,


Tim

[wtroger]

I can't resist this one. Hornady shows a load for the 223 wssm with a 40 gr bullet at 4600 fps. And I have actually taken that round to that point. It is with 1-14 twist barrel and the Hornady bullets do not come apart. I have two rifle chambered for this round from the same reamer both 1-14 twist barrels the one will shoot the 4600 fps load with no visible pressure signs it is a commercial Mauser the other one you cannot get above 4300 fps without sticky bolt issues it is a Savage. As the manuals say back off at least 10% from max and work up. Every barrel is different and every action is different. Wildcatting is fun but you do have to pay attention to details and watch for pressure signs. Not everyone can afford the equipment it takes to find the true pressure of a round. With that being said one can argue that no one should wildcat with out a means of measuring pressure. If that where the case we wouldn't have half the factory rounds we have today. As matter of fact I consider the 55gr Winchester factory loads for this round to be extremely hot if you look at the primer flattening you get and the rather snug extraction. But I would assume they are well within Saami specs.

[quickdtoo]

The fragmenting bullets happened at around 5500fps IIRC, with the 17-06.

Tim

[HonkerHunter]

Superior Ballistics are the guys I got the information from. By Smalley told me that he had fired 3,000 rounds of Moly Coated bullets through his 5/35 SMc at 4,600 fps. and was still shooting 1/4" groups. Your right, it does sound like a lot of B-S but I have seen this is writing as well as got the information straight from the horses mouth. Please don't shoot the messenger! I was only thinking out loud and thought it would be pretty sharp to have an H& that could produce those kind of ballistics.

HH

[Fred M]

Tim
17-06 and 22-284 needs to have a powder invented. The biggest case I have in my program is a 17- 22-250. It moves well over 4000 ft with a 20 gr bullet but 17-223 is more to my liking.

As can be seen above 4600 ft as I said is not unreasonable. Of course their is
a price. The 223WSSM is not phantasy. Wildcatting is fun and with a good computer program it is quite save with applied intelligence.

If you like this kind of bullet speed by all means obtain them. More and More wildcats becoming standard loadings. So don't knock wildcats.

One of the sweetest wildcats to come along is the 17HRM, what a darling and no time is needed for handloading. Who wants to fiddle handloading  a 22Hornet only to produce poor ammo.

A word of caution Handi rifles are not designed for these hot rods

[quickdtoo]

I think I'll load up some of the 30gr Calhoon silver bullets in the 22-250, just for fun!!! Berger provides data for their 30gr bullet.

Tim

[Mac11700]

Well...we have been around the hill on this one...that's for sure...BUT...it still ain't going to do 4600fps sanely...This wildcat..and several 20 cals have been around for some time...they ain't new by no means...and your not going to push no 30 grain bullet to 4600fps in the 6mm BR case in a Handi..and stay in any type of sane pressure with it...other larger cases...maybe..You want to read about some of them...then go here...maybe you'll see what these guys are doing with it...and no offense is meant here to anyone..I think they know a little about what they are talking about...http://www.6mmbr.com/20Caliber.html#20PPC...No matter...I think it is a neat little cartridge..and everything I have read on them..they are sweet to shoot as well...This looks like it would be fun for the money..

Mac

[Mitch in MI]

Anybody build a .172BMG yet?
That would be something with a 100" barrel.