Author Topic: 38-55 BP question (Read 2700 times)

DocO · « **on:** June 18, 2007, 12:51:46 PM »

New to this forum but I think alot of you can help me out here. Just bought a 1871 38-55 target and have been playing with black powder loads. The bullet I have using is a 250 gr. lee mold RNFP. At 50 yrds I have been getting about a 1 1/2" group, but at 100 yrds the group opens up to about 8". My powder charges vary depending on what load I am testing but that I can deal with. My question is would anyone suggest a different bullet such as a lyman 378674 which is hevier. [ old scout reamed the chamber and the bore sizes at .379] Also with the rear sight [factory williams] all the way to the top I can not shoot out past 100 yrds. How do I decide how much shorter I need to go with a new lyman front globe. The present globe measures .580? All suggestions welcome. Thanks Doc

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** June 18, 2007, 01:04:59 PM »

Welcome aboard Doc!! You'll find that a lot of us have had to put lower front sights on the Target/Buffalo Classic, they come with the .584" 17A, you've got a choice of .404" or .494" 17A sights, I went with the .404" on my .45-120 BC, also opted for the Lee Shaver inserts for the 17A.

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,49.htm

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,1727.htm

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,1728.htm

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,64605.0.html

Below are some links from the FAQs that you might find helpful.

Tim

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,96466.msg1098240225.html#msg1098240225

http://www.brimstonepistoleros.com/gazette/jan06.html

DocO · « **Reply #2 on:** June 18, 2007, 02:32:25 PM »

Tim thanks for the info I'll put it to good use . I was thinking the same on the front sight [.404], should reach out alot further. As for the bullet weight I my just have to buy the lyman mold to find out. Unfortunately test molds add up to alot of cash. Thanks again Doc

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** June 18, 2007, 02:42:11 PM »

If you can find someone that sells that bullet already cast, that would be the way to go, then you'd know if it will shoot good before investing in the mold. Of couse, you can always cast them on the big size, then resize them to whatcha need too.

Here's Handrifle's black powder Target experience with Chey-cast bullets.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,117826.msg1098384772.html#msg1098384772

handirifle · « **Reply #4 on:** June 18, 2007, 04:05:02 PM »

Check the BPCR bullets they sell. The 245gr one in 1-20 mix works GREAT in mine.
http://cheycast.com/

Sounds like yours are a tad undersized or too hard, not bumping up.

Ireload2 · « **Reply #5 on:** June 18, 2007, 04:20:45 PM »

With a 26.5 inch sight radius it takes .0074" vertical adjustment to move the point of impact 1" at 100 yards.

Changing from a .584 to a .494 (-.090") will raise the point of impact about 12.2 inches.
Changing from a .584 to a .404 (-.180") will raise the point of impact about 24.4 inches.

Graybeard · « **Reply #6 on:** June 18, 2007, 04:52:42 PM »

I think you guys are failing to see the forest for the trees and getting WAY off of his concern here. He's using black powder and varying charges. Me thinks a lesson in the use of BP is in order. I really think the best place to get that lesson is at my BPCR Forum. I'm not particularly knowledgeable in the use of BP but do know you DO NOT use it like smokeless and play around with the powder charges. That is likely your problem.

As I understand it you need to fill the case up to slightly above where the bullet base will rest so you slightly compress the powder charge for best results. It's often recommended you use a wad inside but I'm not knowledgeable enough to offer advice in that regard. I think it's a vegetable base wad or some such. The guys on the BPCR forum are the guys to turn to for BP advice.

Once you get the basics of BP use down THEN will be the time to begin worrying about which bullet is most proper to use and whether you need to change sights and such. BP is not smokeless and cannot be treated like smokeless, you need to learn the correct use of it first and then move on to the rest.

handirifle · « **Reply #7 on:** June 18, 2007, 05:53:07 PM »

Nice catch GB, I assumed he meant he was trying different powders. I experiment with diff powders like Pyrodex, GOEX etc, but the MOST important thing is to make sure there's no air gap between bullet and powder. There is no reduced loads for BP!!

Trying the wads and is another form of load variation, but it must all, at the very least, make a full case, most powders do work better under some compression.

I was going by the spread of his groups, ASSUMING they were from a full charge of the same powder load.

Guess it would be best if DocO told us his load first. That said, I have noticed HUGE differences in groups with lead bullets, from the same powder loads, with different bullet diameters. I think the bullet hardness and dia are the first two most critical elements of an accurate BP load, they have been for me anyway, BUT, I'm still pretty new at it too.

Roudy · « **Reply #8 on:** June 18, 2007, 06:24:54 PM »

I echo the suggestions about working on the load first. I shoot the Lee 250 grain bullet and have very good luck with it, but with smokeless powder. A good black powder lube and a wad I think are essential along with a drop tube to pour the powder into the case...the drop tube will allow the BP to compress and be more dense and permit faster ignition. If loaded right the sound will be more of a crack and less of a boom ...now there's a technical term!!!

Like was mentioned there should be NO AIR GAP inside the cartridge even if the powder is compressed some.

Wads can be confusing at first, but it is nothing more than a piece of cardboard, like tablet backing, cut to a diameter to fit inside the case between the powder and the bullet. The wad will help keep the bore clean and, IMHO protect the base of the bullet from the gasses cause by the burning powder. I've made a simple cutter from an old cartridge case cut to the right diameter and sharpened then chucked in a drill press. The brass case will cut several wads, but you have to keep sharpening it, but it is cheap. If your going to shoot a lot is would probably be best to either buy the wads or a tool for cutting them.

The lube used is softer than what you would use for a smokeless powder round. I usually make my own with beeswax and lard, (50-50 mix melted in my wife's microwave) but there are many formulations that people swear by, some pretty complex.

Good luck with your BP shooting, with a little attention to detail you should be getting much smaller groups. I mounted a scope on my 38-55 Target Rifle because my eyes are showing their age, but on a good day I can get groups hovering around an inch at 100 yards with the Lee bullet and smokeless powder.

Roudy

John Boy · « **Reply #9 on:** June 18, 2007, 06:44:12 PM »

Quote

My question is would anyone suggest a different bullet such as a lyman 378674 which is hevier.

Doc ... yes, give the L378674 - 335gr bullet a try.

My recipe that has produced good 3-4" groups at 200 yds is:
The 335gr Lyman cast with a BHN of 12
42gr of Goex Cartridge or a FFg powder (sifted)
0.030 felt wad
Light crimp

My groups at 300yds do open up using the Lyman bullet. I have been experimenting with the Saeco 571 (300gr) bullet that has a better ballistics coefficient that gets close to the old Ideal 166 bullet which calculates to a 17.68 twist ratio of the 38-55 twist of 18:1

Haven't derived the best powder charge yet but been getting 3" groups @ 200yds when my eyes are working OK and a few fliers when they eyes are not OK

Another bullet that amazed me is the custom 250gr Big Lube bullet. Last month was shooting the Chickens and Pigs. Did well with 40gr FFg - 0.030 fiber wad and a regular factory crimp. They weren't dropping every time but I was shooting in 20-50 mph winds. I even managed to hit a pallet at 800yds with this recipe but not enough 'umph' to reach a buffalo target at 1000yds

eskimo36 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 19, 2007, 02:01:28 AM »

john boy,
are those powder measures by volume or weight?

handirifle · « **Reply #11 on:** June 19, 2007, 04:09:13 AM »

One thing to keep in mind on the 38-55, the H&R 38-55 is a 1-18 twist and many times it will not stabilize a bullet that heavy/long. Mine hasn't so far. my understanding is 300gr is about the limit for that twist.

Smokin Joe · « **Reply #12 on:** June 19, 2007, 06:34:38 AM »

DocO, if you just want to try a few of the Lyman 378674, grab a box at Sagebrush:

http://www.sagebrushproducts.com/bullets.htm

They make really good stuff and are great people.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #13 on:** June 19, 2007, 06:41:42 AM »

Buffalo Arms has several bullets available in .378" to .380", and the molds for them too.

Tim

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm?viewfrom=13&catid=83&step=2

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/2,43.htm

John Boy · « **Reply #14 on:** June 19, 2007, 11:39:18 AM »

Quote

are those powder measures by volume or weight?

Eskimo, all scale weights. I don't reload using any BP volume weights except when I play around with H777.

The downside is my compressions are heavier due to the varied densities between BP lots and brands

DocO · « **Reply #15 on:** June 19, 2007, 03:02:24 PM »

I'm back again. Thanks for every ones reply , helpful stuff. I guess I should have mentioned I've shot muzzle loaders for the past 30 years and a 45-70 rolling block [black powder cartage] for the last 3 years. So I do know somethings about BP. Don't get me wrong I appreciate the heads up because some are not familiar with the use of BP. I've already ordered the Lyman mold so I'll try a couple of different lead mixes and different powder compression depths. I do hope the heavier weight bullet will stabilize or else I've just add to my mold collection. Also I'll try the shorter front sights that should help for either bullet. This is a great forum, real friendly and helpful people. Doc

DocO · « **Reply #16 on:** June 19, 2007, 03:31:50 PM »

John Boy, I noticed you did not use a grease cookie with the Lyman bullet recipe that's good. The lee molded bullet I've been try only has the 2 grease groves and needs a 1/16 inch cookie between the bullet and the .030 poly wad to make up the difference in lack of lube. Also I've been using 3F only. I'll have to try the 2F. Never thought about 2F with the 38 cal. size. Doc O

John Boy · « **Reply #17 on:** June 19, 2007, 04:29:34 PM »

Quote

I'll have to try the 2F. Never thought about 2F with the 38 cal. size.

Doc ... Harry Pope did ... 100 yrs ago!
His favorite 38-55 recipe was:
52gr FFg with a felt wad on top of the powder.
He breach seated a 300 bullet 1/16" into the leading bore, chambered the cartridge - leveled down and shot the eyes out a knat with one of his 1:18 twist barrels! Might want to try some reloads using sifted powder. At longer ranges, the SD's keep the groups tighter

Also, don't be afraid of longer-heavier bullets not stabilizing with the H&R. Again, the Saeco 571, 300gr ( 5 grease groove) is the closest current production bullet to the old Ideal 166 (1.2" - 330gr) ... that is out of production and when I talked with Lyman - no plans to make the mold again.

Your rifle may vary, but mine likes bullets on the harder side due to the shallow grooves with the H&R barrels.

Happy shooting and may your groups be small
Regards
John

DocO · « **Reply #18 on:** June 24, 2007, 11:26:29 AM »

A few days ago I asked the question about the Lyman 330gr bullet and lower front sights for my 38-55 target. The response help alot. I switched from 3F BP to 2F BP. Tried the Lyman molded 330 gr bullet in a softer lead and wheel weight lead, The wheel weight out preformed the softer lead big time. Also found that I needed to leave the bullet off the land about .108 anything closer was not quite as good. As for the sights I had purchased the .404 globe and it made the gun shoot about 6'' high at 100 yards with the rear sight all the way down so I'll have to try the .494, should be about right. Thanks everyone for all your help its shooting much better. Doc O

handirifle · « **Reply #19 on:** June 25, 2007, 11:44:36 AM »

Doc
Does yours stabilize the Lyman 330gr bullets?

DocO · « **Reply #20 on:** June 25, 2007, 04:25:38 PM »

Handirifle
I've only been able to try the 330 gr. bullet at 100 yrds. It looked OK at that range, but I have been told it will probably tumble at 200 yrds because that heavy of a bullet can't be pushed fast enough with BP. So 200 yrds will be next as soon as I can get to a longer range. Doc O

John Boy · « **Reply #21 on:** June 25, 2007, 05:40:38 PM »

Doc, I believe this is what you call the '330' gr bullet. It is the Lyman 378674 and casts a nominal 335gr with Lyman #2.
And

Quote

I have been told it will probably tumble at 200 yrds because that heavy of a bullet can't be pushed fast enough with BP

The person that told you this line either doesn't know how to reload or has a load of meadow muffins in their pants - probably both! It is one of the better 38-55 bullets for BPCR Silhouette or long range Buffalo shooting.

Shooting more than 500 rounds using the 378674 and Black out of my H&R ... I have never had one round key hole at 100 -200 - 300 - 500 and a few shots at 800 yards using the recipe I posted for you.

And if you feel I'm feeding you a line:
... Subscribe to The Blackpowder Cartridge News and read the match results where this bullet has placed in the winners circle
... Ask the question on the ASSRA Forum whether it will fly or not ... http://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/yabb.pl
... And have this person tell Sagebrush Products that the Lyman 378674 they are selling can't make it to 200yds ... http://www.sagebrushproducts.com/bullets.htm They will laugh this dude out of town!

handirifle · « **Reply #22 on:** June 25, 2007, 06:03:41 PM »

John Boy,
What dia are your bullets, and how does that compare to your target rifle bore/lands?

Also, How far out can you seat your 330's, I posted online here (somewhere) that I can load mine up to 3.1" and just touch the rifling. That leaves a LOT of BP room underneath. That leaves 3 of 4 grease grooves exposed. Not good for hunting, but for target it shouldn't pose any problems.

I haven't loaded and shot any of those yet, but will as soon as I get this scope mount setup figured out.

Pic added by Tim!!

John Boy · « **Reply #23 on:** June 25, 2007, 07:17:55 PM »

Handi, first of all it is not a 330gr bullet. It is the Lyman 378674 and casts a nominal 335gr bullet with Lyman #2 ... commonly called the Lyman 335gr bullet

I cast them at 380 (Bhn 13) with a reamed out chamber. The spec's for the 38-55 are:
• Barrel - 28" with a 1:18 rifling twist
• Per the Factory ...Bore – 0.373 and 0.379 grooves
• My rifle: 0.374 and 0.378
The max OAL of the Lyman reload in this rifle is 2.857 (driving band engraved). But I reload at 2.845 and no, 3 or 4 GG's are not exposed. The bullet is a only a 4 grease groove to begin with and you mean to tell me your loading at 3.1" with only 1 GG or the base seated?

The case is either 2.0xx or the new Starline 2.129 and the bullet is 1.309

Postscript: Seeing the added picture, the bullet doesn't look like the Lyman 335. The ogive is completely different. What mold made your bullet and what is the bullet diameter at the mouth of the case? Also, how much powder do you have in the case?

handirifle · « **Reply #24 on:** June 25, 2007, 08:23:25 PM »

Quote from: John Boy on June 25, 2007, 07:17:55 PM

Handi, first of all it is not a 330gr bullet. It is the Lyman 378674 and casts a nominal 335gr bullet with Lyman #2 ... commonly called the Lyman 335gr bullet

I cast them at 380 (Bhn 13) with a reamed out chamber. The spec's for the 38-55 are:
• Barrel - 28" with a 1:18 rifling twist
• Per the Factory ...Bore – 0.373 and 0.379 grooves
• My rifle: 0.374 and 0.378
The max OAL of the Lyman reload in this rifle is 2.857 (driving band engraved). But I reload at 2.845 and no, 3 or 4 GG's are not exposed. The bullet is a only a 4 grease groove to begin with and you mean to tell me your loading at 3.1" with only 1 GG or the base seated?

The case is either 2.0xx or the new Starline 2.129 and the bullet is 1.309

Postscript: Seeing the added picture, the bullet doesn't look like the Lyman 335. The ogive is completely different. What mold made your bullet and what is the bullet diameter at the mouth of the case? Also, how much powder do you have in the case?

OK didn't know the 5gr made much difference, but I stand corrected.
My statement was 3 OF (not or) 4 grooves exposed, in MINE, not yours. Not 3 or 4.
This was ONLY a bullet loaded into a case to test just how far out it would go and the action still close. It is my understanding, after reading several articles, the Schutesen (sp?) method was to seat the bullet in the chamber, THEN load the pre-charged case in behind it, with just a hair of bullet seated in the brass. This would be similar in operation.
The bullets are from Chey-cast and not sure what mold he uses, but they measure .379 and are 1-20 mix.

As I said, no powder, yet, but I am estimating close to 60gr but will post for sure.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #25 on:** June 25, 2007, 08:55:54 PM »

Handi, might be the RCBS 378-312-BPS 82090 ??

Tim

http://westernbullet.com/rcbsmoulds/rcbs-m-rifle.html

handirifle · « **Reply #26 on:** June 26, 2007, 04:29:32 AM »

Quick
I don't think so. My pic is a little dark, but my bullets are not quite so pointy. They are advertised as .380, but mine mic at .379. I'm guessing the cast at .380 and shrink to .379 when lubed/sized. just a guess.

The 378-312 BPS

The 335gr Snover from Chey-cast (sorry but he has them sideways on his page)

John Boy · « **Reply #27 on:** June 26, 2007, 08:11:55 AM »

Tim, I leaning that the bullet is a Paul Jones 335gr (4 Grease Groove) Creedmoor
Handi, does your bullet have 4 grease grooves and what does it weigh?

Do me a favor if you would and take the following measurements:
... Length of bullet
... Length from nose to leading edge of driving band
... Diameter of driving band
... Diameters of the grease groove bands - 1st - 2nd and 3rd
... Length of bullet from the nose to the grease groove band where the band is greater 373
You mentioned the base is 379

As for your breach seating of the bullet:
Harry Pope's recipe:
His 300gr bullet seated and engraved 1/16" in the leading bore cut
52fr FFg powder topped with a felt wad
Cartridge (not flared) seated with breach seater

As for your 62gr of powder ... I tried to put 62gr of FFg into a Starline 2.125 case. Filled to the mouth and had 13.3grs of powder still in the pan.
The choice is yours but I won't use 62 grs of powder

quickdtoo · « **Reply #28 on:** June 26, 2007, 08:22:36 AM »

Yeah, the RCBS doesn't look like it, although the pic at Chey-Cast doesn't look like Handis bullet either, but that could just be the pic quality.

Tim

handirifle · « **Reply #29 on:** June 26, 2007, 10:46:35 AM »

John, I am at work till 4PM (it's about 1:30 now) and will make the measurements this evening. educate me, which is the "driving band"? Do you count the grease grooves as number 1 being the closest to the nose or base?

I'll try to fill one with powder with normal compression, for my loads, and see how much it holds. I usually measure by volume and will post what I cram in there. NORMAL compression, for my loads, is about 1/8" with GOEX.

Quick, that was the bullet I ordered and the pic is kinda dark (flash wasn't working) but I have to agree they don't seem to exactly match.