Author Topic: 22/250 neck sizing die?  (Read 1242 times)

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Offline KN

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22/250 neck sizing die?
« on: June 18, 2007, 02:00:02 PM »
Most of my rifle reloading has been with full length sizing. That said it looks like I need to start neck sizing for an Encore because of short case life. (3 firings and its separating) What would you all consider the best type of neck die? I see bushing types that dont touch the shoulder, some that do, and collet dies that squeeze the neck around a mandrel. Any imput is appreciated.   KN

Offline goodwrench6710

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Re: 22/250 neck sizing die?
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2007, 02:32:26 PM »
With a RCBS FL die, if you set it down to touch the shell holder & back it off 1 turn it will neck size only & increase your case life.

Offline Grumulkin

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Re: 22/250 neck sizing die?
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2007, 10:19:24 PM »
For neck sizing, I like Lee Collet Dies since they require no lubrication and thus, no mess.

Offline dave375hh

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Re: 22/250 neck sizing die?
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2007, 11:53:45 PM »
I use the Redding bushing neck dies with the Ti coated bushings(no lube). Measure one of your loaded rounds with the bullet seated and order a bushing .002-.003 smaller in dia. You can partial size the neck leaving a portion at the base of the neck to help center the round in the chamber.
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Offline HEAD0001

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Re: 22/250 neck sizing die?
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2007, 12:18:39 PM »
Separating?  At the case head?  If it is at the case head then you have a problem!  A big problem!!!  I would guess you have a head space problem.  I do not think neck sizing is your answer.  I would have the headspace checked.  If you do not have a gunsmith then buy a set of Go NO Go Gauges.

GoodWrench also has a good idea to try. 

Depending on what Separating means, you are flirting with disaster.  Get it checked before you shoot any more. 

You might also have a pressure problem.  Tom.
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Offline KN

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Re: 22/250 neck sizing die?
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2007, 12:53:59 PM »
It's not a pressure problem, it's a loose chamber. That's why I need to neck size. It's also an Encore and I will need to at least bump the shoulder a bit or I am going to have lock up problems. So it looks like I'm going to have to look at the dies that will bump the shoulder without sizing the body.  That's also a reason I can't just back off a f/l die.   KN

Offline LaOtto222

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Re: 22/250 neck sizing die?
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2007, 02:29:09 PM »
What is the difference between a full length sized case and a fired case in diameter right above the web (where it separates)? Is there a large difference between the diameters right below the shoulder? Usually separation is due to bumping the shoulder back, then stretching to reach the breech face. A couple times of this and the case separates right where the web ends. This is caused by the firing pin pushing the case all of the way into the camber, then firing, sticking the case in the chamber against the chamber shoulder. The case then stretches to fill the distance to the breech face. A few of those and bam you have a separated head. :o I would think that a full length sizing die adjusted to just bump the should back enough to chamber the round would extend case life considerably even if the head space was a little too much. The head separation can happen on guns with the proper head space. There are differences in dies too. There are some that size back to original or smaller than original case size. They are called a small base sizer. There are differences in full length size dies from one manufacturer to the next. I would try to adjust the die you have so that the case will just chamber and lock up snugly. Back your die off and run a once fired case into it. Try to chamber the case. Keep moving the die down very little at a time until a case will just chamber and the action shuts with a LITTLE resistance. I think you will find this will extend your case life considerably. It will take some time to get it adjusted just right. Once you have it adjusted, make sure your ring is locked down good so it will not move. Size another one to verify your setting. Once it is set do not change it. Use it only for that chamber. The neck will just have to be sized the way the die does it. Another option is to make a chamber cast and send it into (I think Redding) to make a custom die. Of course this is going to cost you plenty. I know they make wild cat dies for people. You could re-chamber in 22-250 AI to solve any over size chamber problems. Of course this will not solve head space problems as the head to the root of the neck is the same for both cartridges ( I think). Just some things to consider. :o
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Offline KN

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Re: 22/250 neck sizing die?
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2007, 02:53:59 PM »
I found a Forester Precision Plus Bushing Bump Neck Sizer Die w/3 bushings that I think will do just what I need. Any comments on this die? Good bad or otherwise?   KN

Offline LaOtto222

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Re: 22/250 neck sizing die?
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2007, 03:34:29 PM »
I just looked that die up. I have never used one, but sounds like it will do what you want. I do not know what die set you have. Remember, moving the sides in and out through firing and resizing does not stretch cases. Moving the shoulder back too far does. I think you will still have to adjust the die as I described above to get precise head space. You will get the befit of a neck sized case with the die you described. The method as described above would not precisely size the neck. It would be the same as you are getting now. The bushings may be of the correct size or may not. I assume if they do not fit you could buy additional bushings to make a precise fit. I am not sure about body size. I mean I do not know if you would have to full length size after a few firings to get the body size back down so it will fit the chamber. I would think for $67 it would be worth a try. It sounds like it was designed with a break open single shot in mind. I know Forster dies are well made. I have spent that much or more trying to get a precise neck. I spent $50+ for a Redding and $10 each for 5 bushings for my 221 Fire Ball. I think I am starting to ramble on. What ever floats your boat. ;D
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Offline KN

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Re: 22/250 neck sizing die?
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2007, 03:53:30 PM »
I thought it looked pretty good. Basically I have .005" total head space now with a full length sized case. That's .003" below flush with the barrel and another.002" gap between barrel and frame. I figure if I can eliminate the .003" I'll be in good shape. I need the .002" for clean action lock up. So basically I just need to bump the shoulder .002".   KN

Offline HEAD0001

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Re: 22/250 neck sizing die?
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2007, 09:15:37 PM »
"It's also an Encore and I will need to at least bump the shoulder a bit or I am going to have lock up problems."

I load for three Encore's and I neck size for two, and slightly bump the shoulder on one.  I believe you are saying that you are shortening the cases by .005 when you FL size?  And you are hoping that by neck sizing only(and bumping the shoulder) that you will not shorten the case?  I believe the 22-250 head spaces on the shoulder?  So any bumping of the shoulder is still going to shorten the case? 

I use a Redding neck sizing die on two of my Encore's with the sizing ring.  I do not use the Redding expander ball.  I then use the Sinclair neck mandrel to size the inside of the neck, then seat the bullet.  I would think this is your only option to try.

Correct me if I am wrong but there is .003 difference between the go and no go gauge?  And you are saying your chamber is off .003 plus .002 for clearance.  I may be wrong but I stil think you have headspace problems.   I do not see any way you could bump the shoulder any amount without having your problem continue.  Just my 2 cents.  Tom.
Tom Chase  Passed away at his home on Wed Nov 23

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Offline LaOtto222

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Re: 22/250 neck sizing die?
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2007, 12:59:32 AM »
Be careful about moving the shoulder back too far. This is what got you into trouble in the first place. When you adjust the die, make sure there is some (just a little) resistance to closing. This will ensure proper head spacing. Even .002 thousands will stretch a case. All of the stretching will occur just above the web. I believe that what HEAD0001 is saying is he does not size because there is not enough stretching going on after the initial firing to resize at all. I am willing to bet his action does not close real easy, he has to snap it shut. If your brass is stretching to the point of having to bump the shoulder very far, then you may be shooting too hot of a load or your brass is too soft. I have a friend that had a custom Norma 6mm BR barrel made for his Encore and he is real fussy about loading for it. He has set his die so it just bumps the case shoulder enough to close the action with a little resistance. He spent some big bucks for Lupua brass so he wants it to last as long as possible. He has had very good results with it. His accuracy does not meet top bench rest guns, but comes close.
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Offline KN

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Re: 22/250 neck sizing die?
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2007, 02:17:45 PM »
I agree with what all of you are saying. All I want to get rid of is the .002". That would let the case set flush with the end of the chamber. I believe most of my problem is happening because the chamber is loose. Then when I F/L size it stretches the case excessively and then needs to bump the shoulder back even more to compensate for the excessive stretch. Thus working the h$#% out of my brass. With the forester die I can neck size without touching the body and still bump the shoulder .002" that I'm looking for. Does this make sense?   Since this is a prairie dog gun I don't want to have tight lock up problems. If it were any other situation I wouldn't care too much if I had to "snap" the action shut. But if I'm going to put 400+ rounds down the barrel in a day I really don't want to have to do that.    KN

Offline LaOtto222

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Re: 22/250 neck sizing die?
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2007, 03:06:33 PM »
I understand your concern. All I can say is to try it like you planned and see if you have satisfactory results. Just keep in mind any stretching will separate heads eventually. .002 is way better than .005. Theoretically your case life should be 2.5 times better (.005/.002 = 2.5) than you are getting now. 3 reloads X 2.5 = 7 or 8 reloads. Bolt gun shooters only neck size so that the chamber is always full, no stretching. They only move back the shoulder when cambering the case gets difficult. Of course they have a camming action in a turn bolt that helps get the cartridge there. Break open singles do not. Good Luck ;D
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Offline wncchester

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Re: 22/250 neck sizing die?
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2007, 03:31:11 PM »
"... it looks like I'm going to have to look at the dies that will bump the shoulder without sizing the body.  That's also a reason I can't just back off a f/l die."   KN

KN, sizing down the body/web should not produce head separation's.  That's usually due to stretching due to setting the shoulder to far back OR a springy action.

If you are setting you die according to directions, that being to "adjust down until the shell holder contacts the bottom of the sizer die",  that's wrong!

That method does make ammo that will function and go bang but it frequently sets the shoulder back more than what is needed and that leads to case unnecessary case separations.   Why so?  Well, both our chambers and dies have tolerances in all dimensions.  If we have a largish chamber and a smallish die, the case expands to the max but is resized to the min tolerances each time, even tho both may be within normal tolerances.  If that's so, the cases are sized down and then stretched  as much as .009" in each firing cycle.  Solution?  Adjust the die so YOUR cases will just chamber in YOUR rifle and no further, regardless of wheither it's rimmed, not rimmed or even a magnum with a belt, or if the headspace is large or small.  In fact, "excessive" headspace shuold be of no real concern for a knowledgeable reloader.

It sounds like you have taken some careful measurements of your chambered ammo.  I  often see admonitions to adjust a sizer in "small increments" like a half or even quarter turn at a time; those are NOT small changes!  Our dies have some coarse threads, 14 per inch, giving a change of 71.4 thousants of an inch per turn.  Thus, only 1/8th of a turn covers the normal full range of headspace tolerance of .009", maximum to minimum.  Only 1/16th of a turn puts us fully in the middle of that range and an adjustment of 1/64th of a turn changes the shoulder a bit over 1 thousant.   It seems very few reloaders adjust so finely.

It is possbile to just turn the sizer down in very tiny increments until cases chamber snugly.  But it's much easier to do it with a means of actually measureing what is happening to the shoulders.  I like the RCBS Precison Case Mic  for setting my FL sizers (and for constant seating depth adjustments too but I don't use the lousy "dummy" bullet seating device they include).  Stoney Point/Hornady and Sinclair have good case measurement tools as well.

The often seen suggestion to  "set shoulders back .001" or .002" is virtually impossible to do consistantly because of the varying springyness of brass.  I try to get .002" on AVERAGE, with no shoulder set longer than the Case Mic shows on my fired brass.  

My cases last for 6-8 loads with max charges, longer with light loads.  My neck-sized cases for bolt rifle's fail due to neck splits, usually happening during the sizing/expanding step, and usually after about 10-12 loads unless they get annealed from time to time.   Some of my neck annealed cases have been reloaded 20+ times!  In fact, after more than 40 years of reloading and sevaral thousands of rounds, all with a fairly small stock of cases, I have NEVER had a head seperation nor a failure to chamber smoothly.  I attribute that to the way I was trained to set my FL sizers.  But I have no experience with break actions so your mileage may vary.

I wouldn't trade my Lee collet type neck sizers for any conventional neck sizers, including the button types.







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Offline LaOtto222

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Re: 22/250 neck sizing die?
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2007, 02:20:45 AM »
wncchester - I have been trying to show the same thing...no too successively either. I gave up and let him try it on his own, he will find out. Head separations are always due to the brass right ahead of the web stretching. I even tried to explain how that happened, not very successful here either. I have a T/C Contender in 22 Hornet. This is the only gun I have had case head separations on and it was because I was full length sizing with hot loads. I have learned my lessons. These single shot break open guns are not as strong as a good bolt gun. There is some springiness in them. An Encore has less than a Contender and a Handi is some where in between. But they all have it. A hot 22-250 load I would think would show some stretch due to the action. By maximizing the distance from the breech face to the shoulder in the case it would reduce the stretch a case sees. I do not think that case stretching can be eliminated totally due to frame stretching and springing back. The shoulder would have to be bumped at least once in a while. But bumping it it too much will cause head separations. Adjusting the dies to bump the shoulder, you explained very well. It does not take much. The shorter the case (distance from the shoulder to case head) the more stretch (above the web) there will be.

I now have Lee collet dies for 22 Hornet, 222 and 223. I sent in for a custom one for my 221 Fire Ball. They sent my money back and said that it was too short to do it with??? The 22 Hornet has the same length case go figure. I had to purchase a Redding Type S die with replaceable bushings for it. I really like the Lee dies, no lube, neck ID centered to the case and it sizes the neck ID the same every time regardless of neck thickness and variation.
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Offline KN

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Re: 22/250 neck sizing die?
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2007, 02:10:12 PM »
I do understand what you guys are telling me. But as I stated before, I believe the root of the problem is caused by a loose chamber, meaning the diameter of the chamber is loose, not the length. Then when F/L sizing, the body gets stretched excessively and the shoulder has to be pushed back even farther than usual to be correct again. Thus causing the head separation. Now for an update! I got my forester die today and did some testing. I set the die per instructions and I can just barely feel the shoulder being bumped. The cases will now chamber flush with the barrel but its tight. Normal loading will require a small snap of the action but not as much as I had to use on a fired case. I took 3 once fired cases and loaded/fired them 7 times and my brass shows no signs of fatigue. In fact they are only growing in length .001" per each cycle. The appearance of the web area looks exactly the same as it did after the first firing. So I think I have this one worked out. Thanks for all the input, i really do appreciate it.   KN

Offline LaOtto222

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Re: 22/250 neck sizing die?
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2007, 01:21:58 PM »
Sounds like you did just as we suggested...as little sizing as possible. ;D I am glad to hear it, it is always good when you work out a problem. ;)
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Offline KN

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Re: 22/250 neck sizing die?
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2007, 01:57:27 PM »
I actually took it one step farther today. I took my F/L die, removed the pin and ball, set it up to where it was just "snugging" itself on my fished cases, and re-ran my cases through like that. Now they chamber perfectly without sticking. Using a micrometer I ended up bringing the web area back down about .0002-.0003". Just enough so I don't have to snap the action shut any more. Seems like about as perfect a fit as I could ever hope for.   KN