Author Topic: Encore .308 help....major problems (Read 1574 times)

Pickwick · « **on:** June 21, 2007, 06:29:08 PM »

Purchased a .308 26" heavy barrel last night to put on my Encore frame. I then proceeded to buy a box of Winchester 150 grn power point bullets to try this morning. Here is where the trouble starts...........I first clean and inspect the barrel for obstructions, then fire the first shot. I get a 1" tear in the paper and butt. I then clean, inspect and fire shot number two, same results with a bigger tear. Go thru the process again with the same results and now come to shot number four...............At the report I get a jolting kick and notice that between me and the target there is a huge white and gray smoke ball

I am definately not an expert here but I assume that the bullet blew up or disintegrated and I know that there was nothing obstructing the path to the target or inside my barrel. After I stop shaking, I start to inspect the gun and notice that there is a visible ring around the barrel about 1.5-2" from the end. I first talked to T/C, they steered me towards Winchester. Winchester wants the unused portion of shells to inspect so I will be sending that back in the morning. I then called T/C back and talked to a guy in Repairs. He wanted the barrel back to inspect. I then talked to Roland there and he agreed to Next Day Air me a barrel so I am happy with the customer service but am still wondering what the heck caused that to happen. No one at T/C, Winchester, or anywhere else for that matter has ever even heard of this happening.

Can anyone here shed some light as to what might have caused this malfunction?

I would like to know so I can inspect the next barrel before I risk life and limb!!!!

sweetwyominghome · « **Reply #1 on:** June 21, 2007, 07:52:45 PM »

While this is strictly speculation, it could be that a .308 chamber was cut into a 7mm blank. With the short SAAMI length of 2.8 and the typical long chambers of TC, the round probably chambered just fine.

The pressure squeezed the first couple of bullets down the tube, and the third may have left a jacket lodged near the muzzle. Shot #4 then encountered the obstruction, hence the jolt of additional recoil and the bulge near the muzzle end.

There certainly other possibilities, but without more details, this seems to be the most obvious that would fit the circumstances.

Incorrect ammo could also be a possibility.

Also, I know of a fellow who got the "ring" you mentioned. But he forgot that, in wanting to soak the bore, he left a wad of patches stuffed into the bore. One shot -- and a dose of severe forgetfulness -- ruined his range day in a hurry.

sweetwyominghome · « **Reply #2 on:** June 21, 2007, 07:55:12 PM »

Pickwick wrote: "No one at T/C, Winchester, or anywhere else for that matter has ever even heard of this happening."

Now that's a staff that's been well-versed by the legal department...

Keith L · « **Reply #3 on:** June 21, 2007, 10:23:33 PM »

I was courted by a field service department at a machine tool manufacturer who told me they say the same thing to nearly every call they get. Admit nothing, deny everything.

Pickwick · « **Reply #4 on:** June 22, 2007, 03:39:36 AM »

The obvious would point to something in the barrel and I also thought of that....before each shot tho. I am absolutely certain that there was nothing in the barrel, unless it got by three to four patches and a visual check. Now the right chamber and the wrong barrel diameter sounds like a possibility. The problem could also lie in the manufacture of the bullet and the barrel could be ok. I will be sending the bullets back today.

Pickwick · « **Reply #5 on:** June 22, 2007, 10:58:55 AM »

Roland at T/C held true to his promise, I received my replacement barrel this morning. I went over it, cleaned it, mounted my Nikon Prostaff on it and put it on the frame. With factory Corelokts it is shooting just over an inch. I am very pleased with it and the customer service from T/C jumped all over this problem and got it fixed. I will be sending the barrel back on Monday. Hopefully, Winchester or T/C will let me know where the problem was.

sweetwyominghome · « **Reply #6 on:** June 22, 2007, 11:31:28 AM »

Did you mike the bore and the bullets before returning them?

If not, you are now at the mercy of what either company chooses to find. I could be way off base here, but being that TC reacted so quickly indicates they may already be aware of exactly what happened -- and they're out to make things "right."

Pickwick wrote: "The obvious would point to something in the barrel and I also thought of that....before each shot tho"

No...

If the bullet would be swaged down via extreme pressure, it would be quite long and not stable, hence the 1" tear in the target. And if the 3rd shot forced out the core but not the jacket, that would explain why shot #4 ringed the barrel.

Pickwick · « **Reply #7 on:** June 25, 2007, 06:45:48 PM »

Sweetwyominghome,

Actually, I still have the barrel as I am waiting for a UPS call tag from T/C. Your post got me wondering so I took both barrels and studied them closer. I am definately no gunsmith but I can look down the barrels at the rifling and the barrel in question has a lot more twist. I do not know how to measure the twist rate but it is very noticeable. Is this normal. The only T/C experience I have is an older Contender and a 15 " .223 barrel for this frame. Could it just not stabilize the 150 grn bullets or could something bad have happened. I am not trying to stir anything up, I am just concerned. Thanks

The bullets all mic'd out the right size. I took the barrel to a machinist buddy of mine for an opinion. He tried a .300 exact tolerance gauge at first and it would not slip into the bore. He then tried the .290 and it worked. We then went back to the .300 and did finally go but not real easy. Earlier, T/C said told me that .300 was the absolute minimum bore diameter for a .308 so I guess that it is within factory specs if this is true.

upnorth · « **Reply #8 on:** June 26, 2007, 04:55:14 AM »

hmmmm... I would somehow document the excessive rifling that you saw before sending it back to t/c... The other posters are right. usually they tell you to send it back and they will look at it, usually sending it back saying it prints good groups at the factory. The fact that he OVERNIGHTED you a replacement tells everyone here they had a bad run of barrels, and thought they caught them all before they were shipped. lets be honest... You could have been very seriously injured had you continued to shoot this barrel. If I were in your shoes, I'd pay for the replacement barrel, keep the bad one and consult an attorney. They must be held to a higher standard of quality control when producing firearms in my books.

Chuck White · « **Reply #9 on:** June 26, 2007, 11:00:09 AM »

Pickwick
Glad to hear that no-one was injured.
If it were me, I would keep the "bad" barrel like upnorth suggests.

I believe that if you were to send the barrel back to TC, you would probably hear that the rifling was to fast or something similar.
I doubt that they would tell you anything like it was bored the wrong diameter or that the chamber was wrong.

So many times when something goes bad, a company will replace whatever the item was and that's the last you'll hear from them.

BUT, I would keep the barrel.
If that's what you do, be absolutely sure that it gets tagged as a non-shooter!

Keith L · « **Reply #10 on:** June 26, 2007, 12:25:37 PM »

What is the purpose for keeping the barrel, short of grist for the law suit mill? If you do that you become part of the problem, not the solution.

I had a stock crack on a TC muzzleloader and they overnighted me a new one. That was purely my fault, and posed no danger at all. Unlike some of the rest of you my customer service experience with them has been exceptional, and I have no reason to want to jack with them.

upnorth · « **Reply #11 on:** June 27, 2007, 11:02:46 AM »

with all due respect Keith, a cracked stock is a little different from a barrel with the wrong rifling!!! What if part of the bullet became lodged in the barrel and he didn't notice it and kept firing?? He could have taken grenade like damage if the rifle blew up... I'm not in favor of frivolous lawsuits either and I realize he wasn't injured ( thankfully) , But I definitely think that the danger he faced due to their negligence warrants maybe a couple free barrels and a pro-hunter frame, don't you think??

Keith L · « **Reply #12 on:** June 27, 2007, 11:24:51 AM »

I think in fairness to TC then the barrel needs to be examined and the problem diagnosed by an expert prior to deciding that anyone is at fault. I never meant to say a cracked stock was serious, just to say that TC customer service replacing sight unseen parts is not unknown.

I had a Browning compound bow explode on me once, and they replaced it sight unseen. I could have been hurt by it, but wasn't. I didn't try to hold them up for anything. The same applies to guns in my opinion. Mistakes can happen when things are made by humans. And in this case there isn't even any proof that TC made the mistake.

upnorth · « **Reply #13 on:** June 28, 2007, 07:54:41 AM »

Fair enough. but what happens once he sends the barrel back? I guess that will be the end of it. True enough they fixed the problem asap, but I thought they always wanted the barrel back first before issuing a replacement?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #14 on:** June 28, 2007, 09:28:36 AM »

Here's a case where TC obviously made a mistake on one of their barrels, surely not common, but stuff happens.

Tim

http://www.predatormastersforums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=52574046&page=&fpart=all&vc=1

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=124693

Keith L · « **Reply #15 on:** June 28, 2007, 12:54:21 PM »

Quote from: upnorth on June 28, 2007, 07:54:41 AM

Fair enough. but what happens once he sends the barrel back? I guess that will be the end of it. True enough they fixed the problem asap, but I thought they always wanted the barrel back first before issuing a replacement?

I guarantee you that if folks keep the barrel being questioned and if they try to use it to gain something from TC any sending of replacements will end quickly.

It is an interesting thing. I have never had anything but great service from TC. Others have had trouble. TC needs standard work for their customer service folks, and I hope they go to the great service end. The service in this case was great, but then some want to take advantage of the situation. That seems like punishing them for good service.

Years ago I worked for a Fortune 200 company that had a fair amount of legal trouble due to the makeup of the product line. We always tried to make things fair if there were problems, but things changed fast if someone wanted to take advantage of the situation. Word gets out and in a heartbeat everyone wants something they don't have coming. I was an expert witness more than once for them, and I know how much money they were willing to pay to be right. With TC having deeper pockets now I would expect the same thing. In this case no one was hurt, we don't really know what happened, and I saw no real interest on the part of the individual with the problem to do anything except get a good shooting gun. Seems to me that it should be a done deal.

Keith L · « **Reply #16 on:** June 28, 2007, 01:04:34 PM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on June 28, 2007, 09:28:36 AM

Here's a case where TC obviously made a mistake on one of their barrels, surely not common, but stuff happens.

Tim

http://www.predatormastersforums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=52574046&page=&fpart=all&vc=1

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=124693

I don't see any AI barrels on the TC site. I wonder if they were special made for Midway? I hear they make short runs of specials for some of their customers.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #17 on:** June 28, 2007, 01:06:50 PM »

It's listed at the custom shop.

Tim

http://foxridgeoutfitters.com/productpdfs/ACF361C.pdf

tomf52 · « **Reply #18 on:** June 28, 2007, 01:22:58 PM »

"If I were in your shoes, I'd pay for the replacement barrel, keep the bad one and consult an attorney. They must be held to a higher standard of quality control when producing firearms in my books."

This is exactly why the cost of goods is so high to consumers today. Frivolous litigation. The shooter was not hurt, thank God, and the manufacturer made good on the merchandise. I once took a course on automotive brakes while on the job and talked to the factory rep/instructor. Two thirds of the cost of a set of disc brake pads sold today is built in insurance for frivolous lawsuits. This kind of behavior is costing all consumers a fortune!

Pickwick · « **Reply #19 on:** June 28, 2007, 05:08:39 PM »

Thanks for the replies everyone. I think everything turned out the way it needed to. I got a straight shootin gun( I hope) and thankfully didnt get my fool head blown off. It is definitely a barrel problem in my opinion and some significant others that I let see it, I just hope T/C fesses up and lets me know what the specifics are.
Now if they offered a new frame or something for the trouble I can guarantee you that I would be grabbin like a coon after crawdads but that is not what I set out to get. Im sure T/C has enough to deal with.

Roland at T/C handled it like I thought it should be handled and that is all that I expect, nothing more. But:

I still have the barrel and will keep it as long as it takes for them to send me a UPS call tag, as I will refuse to pay to have it shipped back to them!!!!

upnorth · « **Reply #20 on:** June 28, 2007, 06:32:05 PM »

Just glad you were not injured. Keep us posted if you get a response on the bad barrel from T/C. Keith and tomf52, as I look back on what i posted, I was wrong. I was just mad that Pickwick might not be here to even let us know about this if things went sour for him at the range. your right... no harm was done, so no foul. my bad.

sweetwyominghome · « **Reply #21 on:** September 04, 2007, 12:20:37 PM »

Any updates???