Author Topic: help with keyhole targets Ultra Flutted 22-250 (Read 1373 times)

jj141979 · « **on:** June 25, 2007, 06:48:30 PM »

I have a Ultra Varmint Flutted in 22-250 and am using 50 grain V-Max and they seem to be keyholeing the target. I'M not really sure but the targets dont look like nice clean holes from stabilized bullets. But then again they bont look like the 55 Grain Nosler Ballistic tips I tried, the holes where the same exact shape as the bullet with those bullets. I bought a box of these V-Max because I seen on here some of you guys use these in your Ultra Flutted 22-250. Any info would greatly be appriciated. THANKS!!!

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** June 25, 2007, 06:50:33 PM »

Got a pic of the target? I shoot the 50gr Vmax in handloads in my fluted 22-250, shoots real good.

Tim

trotterlg · « **Reply #2 on:** June 25, 2007, 07:47:49 PM »

I would take a real close look at the barrel crown, those bullets should be way over stable in your rifle. Larry

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #3 on:** June 25, 2007, 09:08:07 PM »

Just a theory here...Is the bullet blowing up on the paper (target) somewhat? You can push a 50 grain bullet at 3800 ft/sec. They have a rather violent reaction on any thing hit. Just a thought $:-\$ Everyone can tell me how hopeless I am now

jj141979 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 26, 2007, 05:00:17 AM »

OK I tried to post pictures but it keeps saying my session timed out its only 302 kb not even close to the 1024 allowed. can you tell me how to post a picture. THANKS!!!

jj141979 · « **Reply #5 on:** June 26, 2007, 05:25:52 AM »

Larry WHAT DO YOU LOOK FOR ON THE BARREL CROWN is there anything in particular. THANKS!!!!

jj141979 · « **Reply #6 on:** June 26, 2007, 05:35:35 AM »

OK I figured it out Here are the pictures of the targets look at the very top 2 hole they have a point at the 7O'Clock position. Or Do They? I dont know, I cant seem to get this gun to shoot anything good at all. I looked at the barrel crown and cant really tell if anything is wrong there??? I have no idea what i am going to do with this thing, this is my first Handi and really like it but if it wont shoot whats the sense in having it! Please help if possible!!! THANKS!!!

jj141979 · « **Reply #7 on:** June 26, 2007, 05:49:43 AM »

heres a better pic!!

jj141979 · « **Reply #8 on:** June 26, 2007, 06:03:19 AM »

Them holes dont look right, they look like they are very slightly crooked when they hit. If you look at the very top hole there is a point at the 7 O'Clock position like the point of a bullet!! they are loaded with h380 38 grains to the lands. I did get some h4895 will try thurs but I have my doubts! They are very violent bullets one target I have a 2 or 3 in blown hole from the bullet hitting the wood that the target was stapled to

quickdtoo · « **Reply #9 on:** June 26, 2007, 06:13:04 AM »

Is the target backer vertical or at an angle? If it's vertical, they do look like they're keyholing to me. How's the bore look? Rifling consistent the full length? One member had a 204 Ruger Handi that was only rifled in part of the bore!!

Tim

38gr H380 is a start load, max for a 50gr Sierra is 41gr, and if you're loading to the lands, you're loading longer than normal COL which will reduce pressure. Try more powder in .5gr increments to the max of 41gr and see how it goes. Same for the H4895, 33.5gr start, max of 36.5gr.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #10 on:** June 26, 2007, 06:29:06 AM »

You might also try loading to Hornady's recommended COL of 2.350" and see how that works. Their data for H4895 is 30gr start and 35.4gr max.

Tim

dave375hh · « **Reply #11 on:** June 26, 2007, 07:51:45 AM »

WHOA!!![ Loading to the lands does not lower the pressure, It can increase it radically. In normal length rounds there is some free travel before the bullet engages the lands. This helps ease the pressure some compared to the pressure having to engrave the bullet and start it moving at the same time. That's the reason for the "deep throat" chambers on Ruger's, and the Weatherby freebore.

Looking at your targets I'd agree with Larry about damaged or burred muzzle crown.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #12 on:** June 26, 2007, 08:36:50 AM »

True, buy only if he's loading hard into the lands will it increase pressure. Reaching the lands in a lot of H&Rs is impossible with lighter bullets, I'm loading to 2.485" in mine and I'm still off the lands by a .015". Hard into the lands isn't likely to happen in an H&R due to the lack of leverage in closing the action, it will result in inconsistent latch engagement and vertical stringing which his groups don't indicate is happening.

JJ, you can touch the crown up using the info in the FAQs, I've done a couple, it's not hard at all. If it still doesn't shoot well with a little more load work and the crown touch up, or you don't feel comfortable with the crown touch up, you might consider contacting H&R and making arrangements to have it sent in for inspection and repair, they're real good about taking care of their customers, they will most often pay shipping both ways if you ask, the toll free number is also in the FAQs.

Tim

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #13 on:** June 26, 2007, 01:12:18 PM »

I noticed all 3 shots were "key holing" at 1:00. This seems a bit odd to me that all three would be nearly the same. If it was key holing it would seem that it would be more random. That is what happened to me when I was trying to shoot 60 gainers in a Hornet no pattern just all over the map and hitting at all angles (tumbling). Some side ways some not. Even if it was an unstablized bullet I would not think that they would all be the same. Some times the tail of the bullet would be up sometimes at 9:00, just random. I would not think it was the crown, because you have had other bullets shoot just fine and they are both boat tails at least I think they are. Just some thoughts from a crazy guy (pay no attention).

quickdtoo · « **Reply #14 on:** June 26, 2007, 01:24:02 PM »

Maybe JJ is just playing with us!!!

JJ, we need some more info, please, were the 55gr NBTs shot in the same rifle and what load were you shooting if it was?

Tim

Smokin Joe · « **Reply #15 on:** June 26, 2007, 01:33:57 PM »

Have you considered giving the bore a thorough cleaning?

knight0334 · « **Reply #16 on:** June 26, 2007, 01:52:19 PM »

Whats the velocity of the 50gr slugs? ....Possibly an over stabilized bullet??

Shorter/lighter bullets require less rifling rate than longer/heavier bullets. If you really crank up the speeds of a short bullet, you can get keyholing at long ranges because of the slug wanting to stay pointed in the direction you shoot, but the bullet is still traveling in an arc.

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #17 on:** June 26, 2007, 02:07:19 PM »

I just had another thought.

Push the shredded paper back into position (try to close up the hole with the paper). Is the dark circle even all around the center or is it oval shaped, one side closer to the middle than the other? Not sure if we could tell any thing from that , but who knows?

It could spark some more or other thoughts, I like brain storming

jj141979 · « **Reply #18 on:** June 26, 2007, 06:45:31 PM »

heres the Nosler 55 grain BT this was the second time I ever shot this gun. The first time was the winchester white box 45 grain

jj141979 · « **Reply #19 on:** June 26, 2007, 06:47:05 PM »

them other holes ( the holes that look right) are from 55 grain rem soft points factory

quickdtoo · « **Reply #20 on:** June 26, 2007, 07:14:47 PM »

No doubt about those keyholes!! Those groups are not all that bad, can ya imagine what it's like getting whacked by a bullet sideways!!! Are these groups shot at 100yds?

Tim

jj141979 · « **Reply #21 on:** June 26, 2007, 07:32:14 PM »

Those are shot at 25yds, I clean the bore every 20 or 30 shots that is plenty. them where h380 powder also. I never did try any other powder with those noslers I dont think it will help!!!LOL!!! I hope these V-maxs fly ok, I shot 40 grain Combined Tech out of it with Varget Powder and I did get some ok loads with that just not real impressive. If this powder and bullet combination dont work I will try to tweak the 40 grain CTBT loads I have already shot. I also have 50 grain Rem HP that shoot alright out of it, no good groups with them but they definitely are not keyholeing the target! I loaded up them 50 grain V-Max with the Hodgon starting load all the way to max with H4895 and I did load the starting loads to the lands the C.O.L is 2.484 just like Quick said his likes, hopefully mine will like it to!!

I also loaded all different bullet seating depths. I am going to the range Thurs Morning. Hopefully they fly straight

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #22 on:** June 26, 2007, 07:47:30 PM »

I understand now. I thought the 55 grain Noslers were shooting well for you, obviously they are a real problem. Now you have two boat tail bullets that are key holing and a (I think) flat base bullet that is shooting fine. I would take a serious look at the crown. Boat tail bullets are generally more sensitive to imperfections in the crown. The way those 55 Noslers look, you do have a major problem. They look just like the 60 grainers in the Hornet I was telling you about, except you are getting much better groups than I did. I could not even hit the paper most of the time. There should be no problem with stabilization with any bullet of the weights you were shooting. I would tell you what I have done with crown problems, but I would be called crazy by everyone on this site (it has worked for me). Best use the methods stated above or have a good gun smith recrown for you.

jj141979 · « **Reply #23 on:** June 27, 2007, 06:29:51 AM »

is there anyway to tell if I look at the crown to see if theres a problem. I tried to look but cant see anything obvious.LaOtto I tried pushing the back of the target where the holes are and it really didnt seem to help. I dont know if I should call HR or not?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #24 on:** June 27, 2007, 06:49:47 AM »

The crown is the end of the muzzle right at the edge of the bore, a good crown will cause a pattern of fouling to develop on the muzzle surrounding the edge of the bore in an even disbursement, a starburst effect that's easily seen on a stainless barrel, but probably harder to see on a blued H&R barrel due to the coarse matte finish. The fouling will develop after several shots and is the result of escaping gases as the bullet exits the bore. If the crown is damaged or uneven, the gases don't affect the bullet the same all the way around it and causes the bullet to become unstable as the gas pushes on one side more than the other. Boattail bullets are more susceptable to crown defects since the bearing surface of the bullet leaves the bore while the tail of the bullet is still in the bore. The edge of the bore at the crown should be nice an crisp all the way around and the muzzle face square to the bore.

If you're getting that poor accuracy at 25yds, I'd contact H&R to arrange for return of the rifle.

Ask them to either issue a UPS call tag or reimburse you for shipping.

Tell them 50gr bullets are keyholing at 25yds.

Tim

http://www272.pair.com/stevewag/muzzle/mz.html

http://riflestocks.tripod.com/targetcrown.html

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177894&highlight=bad+crown

quickdtoo · « **Reply #25 on:** June 27, 2007, 06:52:10 AM »

While it's there, have them do a free 3-3½lb trigger job on it too!!

Tim

quickdtoo · « **Reply #26 on:** June 27, 2007, 06:58:21 AM »

Here are pics of the fouling I was referring to.

Tim

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71233

jj141979 · « **Reply #27 on:** June 27, 2007, 07:17:16 AM »

I just talked to HR and they sending me a ups tag to ship the gun to them. Thats pretty cool, she said about a 1 week turn around. How do I request trigger work? Do I put a little note in the box or something? Thanks for your help everyone it is greatly appreciated.

oneshotonekill · « **Reply #28 on:** June 27, 2007, 08:18:04 AM »

If your sending it back to H&R this may be a moot point but I'll throw in my 2 cents anyway. One way you may be able to check the crown is to get some sidewalk chalk and color the muzzle all around the crown then fire one shot and check for the star pattern (that quick pointed out) in the displaced chalk. I tried this with chalk my daughter had for a small chalkboard and all the chalk blew off. I then tried sidewalk chalk (the fat stuff) and it worked. Maybe it is "stickier" than regular chalk, but it is an inexpensive way to look for the star pattern on blued guns. Other substances may work better than chalk but that is the only one I tried.

As for keyholes I would assume that barrel is a 14 twist and if you are running loads around the starting point you may not be getting enough veloicity to stabilize the 55 grain bullets. Try bumping up the velocity a little. If the 40 grainers are doing well I wouldn't suspect the crown to be the culprit as you would probably see some effect in the 40 grain bullets as well. Let us know what H&R tells you

quickdtoo · « **Reply #29 on:** June 27, 2007, 08:45:37 AM »

Quote from: jj141979 on June 27, 2007, 07:17:16 AM

How do I request trigger work? Do I put a little note in the box or something?

Yes, I'd tie a tag on the trigger guard, then at least the gunsmith will see it. Wouldn't hurt to put enough info on the tag about the problem you're having too, like "keyholes at 25yds with 50gr Vmax bullets". Have you by chance shot any factory ammo? My best groups have been with the start load of H4895 and the 50gr Vmax, ¾" at 100yds.

Tim