Author Topic: Light Hammer Blows??  (Read 1479 times)

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Offline DDelle338

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Light Hammer Blows??
« on: June 26, 2007, 10:24:08 AM »
  I’m not sure if this is a problem or not.
  I just installed a new 26" .223 barrel and a Boyd's Thumb Hole stock on my Encore. After firing the first round, I couldn't open the action. It would just start to open, and get hung up on something. So I cocked it and dropped the hammer again on the spent case. Then I was able to open the action. The primer had a small protrusion coming from the edge of the firing pin indention. It appears that this was sticking in the firing pin hole after firing.  I fired the rest of the box (Remington factory ammo), with this happening two more times. I did not have any miss-fires but the primers look as though they are not dented very much compared to how the others had been in the past.  They do not appear to be flattened at all like you would see in an over-pressure condition. This gun was a pistol with a 15” .300 wsm barrel on it before installing the .223 barrel. I also noticed the hammer snapping back when pressure was released from the trigger. I hadn’t noticed this before, but with that other barrel, I didn’t notice a lot of things that were happening around me right after I dropped the hammer on those rounds. Nothing was done to the action during this make over. Just the barrel and stock were changed. Could it have something to do with using the pistol grip screw to attach the stock? Are the Remington small rifle primers that much harder than the large primers I had been using? Is this common with Remington ammo?
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Offline KN

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Re: Light Hammer Blows??
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2007, 01:41:55 PM »
The way you describe the primer I would say the problem lies with the firing pin and not the ammo. I have heard of pin springs breaking and binding the pin, or crud in the hole itself. A good cleaning would be my first task, then inspecting the pin and spring.   KN

Offline Crimson Mister

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Re: Light Hammer Blows??
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2007, 10:35:19 PM »
Put your other barrel back on and shoot it. If it works fine then I would look at the barrel chamber or the ammo. Is the primer cratering? The only time I've had a rebounding hammer on a TC was with over-max experimental loads. Buy/borrow another box or two from a different lot/manufacturer and see what happens. If you get the same thing you could have a screwed up chamber, which if out of line with the riflings, can cause an overpressure situation. If it still shoots well with the other barrel and changing ammo doesn't help with this barrel, I'd call TC. They've been good the couple of times I've had to call them. One time I lost a part out of a muzzle loader and I called to buy a replacement and they sent it no charge.

Hope this helps, let us know what happens.
Rich

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Offline DDelle338

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Re: Light Hammer Blows??
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2007, 12:55:26 AM »
  Thanks for the replies,
  It is clean, I did a good cleaning on it during the switch.  The primers aren't "cratered".  The barrel is from E.A. Brown, I hope it isn't the chamber alignment. I think tonight after work, I'll pull apart the firing pin assy. and check that for damage. If that looks OK, I'll swap the barrel leaving the stock on it, and drop the hammer on another .300wsm round to make a comparrison.
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Offline alsaqr

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Re: Light Hammer Blows??
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2007, 02:33:05 AM »
Encores are famous for light hammer strikes.  Did you recently put a hammer extension on the gun?  If so, this may be the problem.  Bought my Encore with a M/L barrel and had no problem firing 209 primers.  Put a new TC .30-06 barrel on it at the shooting bench.   Another regular on the range told me:  "It probably will misfire with that hammer extension."  It did.  Bought a stronger hammer spring and no more trouble.   i've talked with many other Encore owners who have  had the same problem. 

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Light Hammer Blows??
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2007, 06:02:57 AM »
Encores are famous for light hammer strikes. 

Where did you get this from?

I have 3 Encores and have had up to 7 at one time and never had one of them do a light hit. More often it's a barrel/chamber problem or even a primer problem.  I know a lot of guys with Encores and they are not having light hits either.
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Offline Keith L

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Re: Light Hammer Blows??
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2007, 08:07:51 AM »
It is kinda like "All G2s have crummy triggers," and "the factory barrels never shoot,"  and "you always need a tighter hinge pin," and "if you don't use a hanger bar system on the forend they won't shoot."  My favorite was that if you remove the forend screws when changing the barrel on a Contender the point of aim changes.  There was a guy here for a while that cut the end off his forend so he would never have to remove it when changing barrels before he even shot his new gun.

If these guns were as poorly made as some credit them to be TC would be long out of business.  Sometimes I think those who sell replacement parts for TCs start the rumors to help their business. 
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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Light Hammer Blows??
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2007, 08:44:55 AM »
Keith L, I guess we have heard them all.  You are so right about T/C, if they were so bad, why do they sell so well??   ;) :D
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Offline PA-Joe

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Re: Light Hammer Blows??
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2007, 09:32:17 AM »
Are you holding the trigger all the way back until after the round fires? Sometimes if you let the trigger go the safety bar will rise a little and cause a mis-hit.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Light Hammer Blows??
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2007, 09:37:57 AM »
Weak hammer springs, broken hammers and the use of hammer extensions causing problems are all known issues discussed right here often!

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,115444.msg1098368750.html#msg1098368750

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,110369.msg1098333210.html#msg1098333210
fortress49, you would spend less buying the Pro-hunter frame than buying a standard Encore Frame and then paying another $70.00 to have the hammer changed. Remember you will be paying shipping also.
I have the pro-Hunter and I love it. i wish my other 2 Encore frames were the Pro-hunter frames.
I would not put a hammer extension on the Encore, it is only a problem waiting to happen and not recommended by T/C.


http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,101050.msg1098268624.html#msg1098268624

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,8992.msg47277.html#msg47277

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,104658.msg1098297916.html#msg1098297916
Does someone make a hammer extension for the Encore?  I recently bought a Encore ML and did not buy the Pro Hunter because I did not like the quick turn breech plug system.  However, I am now second guessing myself cause I do like the hammer, stock and ram rod. Oh well might have to send it in for a hammer change after the season.

With the hammer extension for the Encore, you may get some light hits on primers causing the gun to hang fire of not fire a all. The Pro-hunter is a great set up.


http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,95187.msg1098231667.html#msg1098231667

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,18924.msg98731.html#msg98731

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,36110.msg202970.html#msg202970

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Offline Keith L

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Re: Light Hammer Blows??
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2007, 10:13:51 AM »
They have been discussed, and I am sure that sometimes it happens.  I think, though, that access to information provided by the internet creates large problems out of small ones.  An occasional problem has always happened with everything man made.  The internet causes one person's problem to be amplified, modified, repeated, and spread until it is universal.  In reality for the number of Encores made the incidence of weak hammer springs is fairly low, but they are reported as "famous for light hammer strikes."  This is made all the worse by accessory vendors who make a living out of convincing people that they have something that will benefit from an add on that the manufacturer didn't think of.

I think the point is that if the guns had all the faults that we hear about, and if it was as common as claimed, then we would all be quite foolish to spend our money on them.

So as to avoid another lengthy discussion like the one about Spanish barrels that just concluded, this is only my opinion.  I own it, have a right to it, can express it, but no one is obligated to agree with me.  Your mileage may vary.

Good shooting!!
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Offline upnorth

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Re: Light Hammer Blows??
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2007, 11:12:04 AM »
I too was getting misfires and light hits with my encore in 7-08. I preformed the experiment every contender/encore owner should perform from the website that cannot be named, and discovered that I had an excessive head space issue. The firing pin was moving the round forward in the chamber, wasting all it's energy doing that instead of setting off the primer! I reset the head space to .0001" following his directions, and the misfires disappeared. Not sure if that's what's going on here, but have you measured your head space?
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Offline Crimson Mister

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Re: Light Hammer Blows??
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2007, 12:05:35 PM »
I had a couple of misfires on my 25-06 pistol barrel. My problem was I was setting the shoulder back too much when I sized the brass and that was causing a headspace problem. Adjusted my dies and no more problem. I didn't mention it because he was using factory ammo.

 ;D
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Offline DDelle338

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Re: Light Hammer Blows??
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2007, 12:53:15 AM »
  I thank you all for the input you've provided. I didn't get to work with the gun last night, just as I opened my safe a friend called and needed some assistance moving some round bales. After which I just didn't want to do ANYTHING but sit in the AC.
  I don't have a hammer extension installed BTW. And I'm shooting factory ammo at this point so I didn't check the headspace, but that is a good idea. I'll check more tonight if I don't have to work too late tonight.
  Thanks again for all the suggestions.
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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Light Hammer Blows??
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2007, 01:22:56 AM »
quickdtoo , What is your point. We are talking about weak springs and light hits, not hammer extension. But the problem seems like a head space problem. Sure TC does not recommend the hammer extension, again what is your point??


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Offline Davemuzz

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Re: Light Hammer Blows??
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2007, 05:03:41 AM »
quickdtoo , What is your point. We are talking about weak springs and light hits, not hammer extension. But the problem seems like a head space problem. Sure TC does not recommend the hammer extension, again what is your point??




Not speaking for Tim, but IF there was a hammer extension on the Encore, that could explain the mis-fire. I've seen this happen on several occasions. Take off the extension and no more mis-fires.  No magic there.

But, after Tim's post, the gentleman did clarify and state that he did not have an extension on the hammer.

Dave

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Light Hammer Blows??
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2007, 05:45:59 AM »
quickdtoo , What is your point. We are talking about weak springs and light hits, not hammer extension. But the problem seems like a head space problem. Sure TC does not recommend the hammer extension, again what is your point??

My point is all of these issues have come up before and are real, not contrived. The excess headspace and barrel gap is another known issue of the Encore and exacerbates firing pin strike issues.

Tim
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Offline alsaqr

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Re: Light Hammer Blows??
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2007, 08:11:00 AM »
"I know a lot of guys with Encores and they are not having light hits either."

Well, lucky on them.  Friend of mine was so lucky to have a light wind in his favor and was able to sneak within 40 yards of a 7 by 7 bull elk in heavy brush.  He finally got a good shot.   His .280 Encore with his new hammer extension misfired.  Elk heard the click and was soon over the next ridge.   

Offline Davemuzz

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Re: Light Hammer Blows??
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2007, 08:21:17 AM »
"I know a lot of guys with Encores and they are not having light hits either."

Well, lucky on them.  Friend of mine was so lucky to have a light wind in his favor and was able to sneak within 40 yards of a 7 by 7 bull elk in heavy brush.  He finally got a good shot.   His .280 Encore with his new hammer extension misfired.  Elk heard the click and was soon over the next ridge.   

If your going to put on an aftermarket product on an Encore, then you be savvy enough to do some research to determine that with a hammer extension, you should install, or have installed a heavier spring to offset the X-tra weight that the hammer extension will add. If you aren't savvy enough to do this, then your 7x7 should be waving his tail at you. ;D

Dave

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Light Hammer Blows??
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2007, 08:36:45 AM »
I agree with Dave, I did a lot of research on the Encore before I ever fired a shot, and it payed off, it shoots extremely well.  ;)

Tim
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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Light Hammer Blows??
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2007, 01:39:05 PM »
quickdtoo , What is your point. We are talking about weak springs and light hits, not hammer extension. But the problem seems like a head space problem. Sure TC does not recommend the hammer extension, again what is your point??

My point is all of these issues have come up before and are real, not contrived. The excess headspace and barrel gap is another known issue of the Encore and exacerbates firing pin strike issues.

Tim


Yes a lot of the problems come from after market parts and custom barrels. It is not a common occurrence for a factory Encore. That is my point.
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Offline DDelle338

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Re: Light Hammer Blows??
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2007, 12:38:11 AM »
  I checked the firing pin assy. all looked good. I didn't have any more unfired Remington rounds left so I couldn't see how they were head spacing in the barrel. I bought some Federals and checked them before firing and they looked good. I don't have a dial indicator to get an accurate measurement, but they are almost flush with the barrel end. They appear to be recessed by only a few thousands using a machinist’s ruler and small feeler gauge. I went to the range and fired a few of the Federal rounds. They looked better! The primers were indented like they should be. I'm going to assume that it was the Remington rounds, either the shoulder was set back a bit far or the primers might have been a bit harder/thicker. OR>>> maybe they were a bit thin, and getting pushed out. That may be why there was that tiny protrusion that got hung up in the firing pin hole.  Now I need to find some of the Winchester 45gr. Varminter Packs allot of you guys say is so good. None of the local gun shops, Gander Mnt., or 3 local Wal-Mart stores has any. I'd like to try some of that before I get my dies and start reloading for this barrel.
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Offline Grumulkin

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Re: Light Hammer Blows??
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2007, 02:31:27 AM »
There is another thing that can happen that I didn't see mentioned (sorry if I missed it above).

If one shoots a load that is a bit too high in pressure, the Encore action springs a little and catches the firing pin in the primer pocket effectively locking the action.  When the action is opened with a bit more fore than usual, it takes a little bit off the tip of the firing pin thus shortening it.  A pierced primer will burn a bit off the firing pin tip shortening it as well.  The cure in either case is to replace the firing pin which is fairly easy.

I've heard that the 300 WSM is too high of pressure for the Encore; perhaps that is where the problem started.

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Light Hammer Blows??
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2007, 04:26:29 AM »
The 300 WSM is not to high of a pressure for the Encore, it thins out the chamber wall to thin to handle the pressure.
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Offline DDelle338

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Re: Light Hammer Blows??
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2007, 12:44:44 AM »
There is another thing that can happen that I didn't see mentioned (sorry if I missed it above).

If one shoots a load that is a bit too high in pressure, the Encore action springs a little and catches the firing pin in the primer pocket effectively locking the action.  When the action is opened with a bit more fore than usual, it takes a little bit off the tip of the firing pin thus shortening it.  A pierced primer will burn a bit off the firing pin tip shortening it as well.  The cure in either case is to replace the firing pin which is fairly easy.

I've heard that the 300 WSM is too high of pressure for the Encore; perhaps that is where the problem started.

  We are talking about factory .223 loads, light 45gr and 50gr loads.
  I have already checked the firing pin assy. All looks "brand new". Everything is clean and moving freely.
  I have since bought several boxes of ammo. Some more remington, some Rem. UMC, Federal American Eagle, and Winchester. ALL primers came out looking as I would expect.  I compared the primers from that first box of ammo to all the newer cases fired and have to say it is positively something to do with the first box of ammo. 
  Thanks again for all your posts, I do appreciate all the input.
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Offline DDelle338

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Re: Light Hammer Blows??
« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2007, 12:47:56 AM »
The 300 WSM is not to high of a pressure for the Encore, it thins out the chamber wall to thin to handle the pressure.

 Redhawk; 
 Can you explain what you meant by this?
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