Author Topic: 1851 hammer jammed  (Read 1318 times)

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Offline Echo4Lima

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1851 hammer jammed
« on: June 29, 2007, 12:45:09 PM »
I have an Uberti 1851 .36 Navy.  The hammer has a safety rest on the pins between the nipples  on the cylinder so it can be carried with all cylinders loaded not 5.

My problem is the gun will no longer cock from that position.  The hammer wont draw back.  It makes an audible "click" when its set on the pin, then wont pull back unless I turn the cylinder by hand.  When I do this, the hammer skips the on coming cylinder moving to the next, or second one up.

I've taken the gun apart as far as I can with out taking the firing mechanism apart and thoroughly cleaned it with no results.

REALLY disappointed with this as this is my favorite cap and ball pistol!!


Offline hrminer92

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Re: 1851 hammer jammed
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2007, 10:21:14 PM »
If you take it apart all the way, I would guess that you'll probably find a lot of crud inside of it.

Offline Echo4Lima

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Re: 1851 hammer jammed
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2007, 05:43:23 AM »
I took it apart down to the main components.  Barrel and cylinder off. Grips and trigger guard frame off.  Leaves only the trigger and hammer parts inside the frame. Didn't take out the individual trigger mechanism parts but flushed them out with Break Free Powder Blast Gun cleaner.  Aerosol can.  Lot of powder residue cleaned out but still have the problem.

I was surprised at the amount of fouling down to the inside of the trigger guard. I'm wondering if its a piece of cap.  Looked into it all with bright flash light but didn't see anything unusual.

Offline Little Bear

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Re: 1851 hammer jammed
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2007, 03:29:05 PM »
Sometimes, a piece of cap fragment gets well down into the action between the hammer and frame and peened into place by the hammer and no amount of flushing will take it out.  You can't even see it with a flashlight.  Only way to get it is to strip all the parts out and it'll practically fall out when the hammer is removed.  Sometimes this prevents the hammer from falling all the way and sometimes it prevents the hammer from being cocked or staying at full cock.  Kinda funny that way.  Sooner or later you're going to have to completely strip the gun down for maintainence and cleaning.  May as well do it now.    ;)

Offline Flint

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Re: 1851 hammer jammed
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2007, 06:23:01 AM »
What is most likely happening is the bolt is dropping in that position, if you are pulling too far past half-cock to turn the cylinder and drop  onto the pins. If your bolt is dropping before the half cock, or too close to allow loading, etc., you will need to retime the bolt.

That being said, it is not good practice to draw a hammer to half-cock and then fully lower it from that position, as the bolt can lock up without resetting and everything is locked, as the bolt is in place and the hand cannot rotate the cylinder, requiring removal of the barrel (or cylinder in a SAA) to free it up again.  From half-cock the hammer should be drawn to full-cock every time before lowering it.  This is true for any Colt type single action.

It is not good practice, either, to trust the "safety" pins, if you look at any older well used repro, and certainly, an original Colt, you will see those pins are usually battered out of existance.  The R&D 5-shot  drop-in cylnder for the 1860 has 10 locking notches, so the bolt itself is holding the cylinder safely between chambers, which allowed SASS to approve the 5-shot configuration.

Regarding Little Bear's comments, yes, caps can be mashed so flat that they are laid up on the frame, almost invisible, in front of the hammer, keeping it from fully dropping, and can only be removed with a sharp knife blade to peel it off the frame.  Down inside, cap fragments get between the sear and hammer, etc. and lock things up.

Cap fragments in the action are most likely caused by excessive blowback through the nipple vent, solved a couple of ways.  Replace the nipples (especially Ubertis) with Treso or Thunder Ridge Stainless nipples, which are a perfect fit for Remington #10 caps, the only size/brand you should use.  The nipples have a smaller diameter vent hole, allowing less blowback, yet a hotter flame, and the correctly fitting caps are less likely to blow off and back into the action.
Flint, SASS 976, NRA Life

Offline Echo4Lima

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Re: 1851 hammer jammed
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2007, 07:39:05 PM »
Little Bear, I've had the cap experience several times.  Had to use the tip of a narrow bladed knife to remove one cap. I'm going to take down everything. I got the schematic from Uberti's site.

Flint, Thanks!!  I'll give your half cock suggestion a try. I think I have been pulling the hammer past where you say not to.  I've never really "carried" the pistol so always had loaded 6.  I plan on carrying it this hunting season so will do the 5 and an empty. I can only find CCI caps around here. No Remington's.

When I first got the pistol, the #10s wouldn't seat on the nipples, the #11's were not recommended and to big.  Sanded the nipples with wet dry paper and they work almost perfectly. I'll look for the stainless nipples.  Been recommended before.

You guys will know my results, or lack there of.  Again, THANKS for the responses.




Offline Flint

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Re: 1851 hammer jammed
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2007, 08:48:23 PM »
The cap size is, from small to large, CCI #10, Rem #10, CCI #11, Rem #11.

If, as you found, the CCI #10 is too small and the CCI #11 is too big, and Remington caps are not available, you did the most practical solution by resizing the nipple cones to the caps you can get.

The old solution of pinching the #11 will inevitably result in caps blowing and falling off, usually into the action, or jamming the cylinder rotation.

Most Italian nipples have too large a flash hole, causing excess back pressure, and if you've lightened the mainspring for a better trigger pull, it will exaggerate that effect.  The reason cap & ball guns have heavier mainsprings than cartridge guns it to help the hammer retain the exploding cap on the nipple when the main charge goes off.

A large enough flash hole can, and will make a full auto cap & ball.  I once had a Remington Zouave .58 rifle recock the hammer from a duplex load.  I did not repeat the experiment.....
Flint, SASS 976, NRA Life

Offline hrminer92

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Re: 1851 hammer jammed
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2007, 04:40:54 PM »
A large enough flash hole can, and will make a full auto cap & ball. 
:o  that would be quite a surprise!

Offline Echo4Lima

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Re: 1851 hammer jammed
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2007, 11:03:05 AM »
Flint,  I tried your cocking idea and it still does it. I can hear the bolt drop(I think its the bolt) as soon as I place the hammer on the pin. How do I  "re-time" the bolt?

When I take the firing mechanism apart, is there any thing specific I should be careful of?

About that re-cocking the hammer, my cousin has a .54 rifle that does that regularly.  I'll let him know. Man! A black powder machine pistol!  That would sure wake you up!


Offline Flint

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Re: 1851 hammer jammed
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2007, 06:13:54 PM »
Check a couple of things. One is the hammer's cam, does it look worn or rounded off at the high (top) edge?  Also, sometimes the timing can be delayed by gently prying the forked spring arms on the bolt apart, biasing the wing that rides the cam toward the hammer to increase the pressure against the cam.  Don't overdo it.  If they are parallel now, or less, widening the wings could help.

Unfortunately, a badly worn cam on a typical Italian Colt requires a whole new hammer, as the cam is not a separate part as it is in a Colt, but then repairing it would probably cost more than the hammer anyway.

Parts from VTIgunparts.com.  Buy a new bolt, just to have it at hand.

Try to get Jerry Kuhnhausen's book (Shop Manual) on the Colt Single Action, it's worth every penny.  He covers the clones as well as the Colts, with part dimensions and action tuning.  Most tuning techniques will apply to the cap & ball.
Flint, SASS 976, NRA Life

Offline Echo4Lima

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Re: 1851 hammer jammed
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2007, 07:08:31 PM »
Thanks for the quick response Flint.

I think I've seen that book advertised in my Buffalo Arms catalog. I'll find one anyway.  Good to have something like that around.




Offline Echo4Lima

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Re: 1851 hammer jammed
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2007, 08:00:54 PM »
Hey Flint. I think it is the cam. I'm planning to order another hammer to also accurize this pistol better. It still shoots to the left a lot so a new hammer will solve my cocking problem and allow me to adjust the sight better.  Looked around and the prices aren't that bad.   

Found the "Shop Manual " @ Brownells.