Author Topic: Whats the deal with Trespassing?  (Read 5712 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline 35Rem

  • Trade Count: (7)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 550
    • Remington Model 8 and 81 Autoloading Rifles
Re: Whats the deal with Trespassing?
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2007, 04:40:29 AM »
if you kill a person over a piece of property with no danger to yourself you are a murderer,plain and simple.

Is that why horse thieves were hung/shot on site? I know that is antiquated, but it was certainly justified. Thieves are not worth a whole lot in my opinion...
Remington Model 8 and 81 Autoloading Rifles
http://thegreatmodel8.remingtonsociety.com/
Vintage Semiauto Rifles
http://vintagesemiautorifle.proboards105.com/index.cgi

Offline rockbilly

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3367
Re: Whats the deal with Trespassing?
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2007, 06:51:36 AM »
35Rem.  Generally, horse thieves were hanged because in most cases they not only took a horse, but often a persons means of survival.  This was particularly true when the horse had saddle and provisions on it.  Course, many of the people didn't appreciate a thief either.

I can see being a little lenient with a kid, but too often a young thief only progresses to an older thief.  Most often thieves tend to take from those that have worked hard to acquire the item, have little or no insurance to replace the lost item, and are generally hardworking honest citizens.  

Regardless of age, a thief belongs in the same category as a rapist, murderer, or any other criminal..  Today the majority of them WILL HURT YOU in their attempt to flee, or to ensure they complete the job they set out to do.  A thief that sneaks around under the cover of darkness, but remains outside is one thing, but one that enters a building, or your home (according to statisics from the FBI) will most often harm you if you attempt to stop them.  For this reason I refuse to judge any person for taking the life of a thief, I wasn't there, don't know the circumstances surrounding the incident and don't know if the shooter was protecting themselves , or others, therefore, I don't feel I am qualifyed to make judgement of the individual.

Bottomline, if a thief get shot, don't blame the shooter, blame the parents of the person being shot for not raising them right.

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: Whats the deal with Trespassing?
« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2007, 09:46:18 AM »
Why not blame the thief ?
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline NONYA

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2223
  • Gender: Male
Re: Whats the deal with Trespassing?
« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2007, 11:11:51 AM »
Blame whoever you want,if you do it in my state and cant PROVE you were in mortal danger,you are going to prison for the rest of your life,NO material object is worth that.
If it aint fair chase its FOUL,and illegal in my state!
http://www.freewebs.com/lifealongthedge/index.htm

Offline superjay01

  • Trade Count: (12)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 262
  • Gender: Male
Re: Whats the deal with Trespassing?
« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2007, 11:29:32 AM »
a thief is not the same as a murder, or rapist. I am not defending the acts that people do but they certainly are not the same thing.
Chance favors the prepared mind

Offline jhm

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3169
Re: Whats the deal with Trespassing?
« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2007, 12:07:44 PM »
A thief isnt the same as a MURDERER, well Sunday a THIEF stole a ladys purse in the afternoon and was seen by a bystander doing it, the bystander shouted to the man to stop that and he turned and fired and struck the bystander in the neck KILLING him, now the 17 year old THIEF is a 17 year old MURDERER, it all took place in the middle of a WAL_MARTS parking lot in N. Little Rock Ar.   If someone had seen this taking place and took armed action against the 17 year old THIEF the by-stander who was KILLED for no reason may still be ALIVE today,  Thats what a 17 year old THIEF grows up to be.   JIM

Offline jhm

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3169
Re: Whats the deal with Trespassing?
« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2007, 12:10:09 PM »
AGAIN there are just too many BLEEDING HEARTS in the world wishing that every-one is a good person and thatsociety has made them BAD.

Offline NONYA

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2223
  • Gender: Male
Re: Whats the deal with Trespassing?
« Reply #37 on: July 24, 2007, 02:20:41 PM »
So u see a 17 year old kid snatch a purse you should open fire?What a bunch of BS!
If it aint fair chase its FOUL,and illegal in my state!
http://www.freewebs.com/lifealongthedge/index.htm

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: Whats the deal with Trespassing?
« Reply #38 on: July 25, 2007, 01:56:42 AM »
Why would anyone want to kill someone for a petty crime ?
If someone came in my home and pointing a gun at them made them retreat , that would be just fine  ! ( it has happened twice ) didn't cost me a thing !
The BS idea of protecting ones stuff is crazy , you save it only hock it to pay legal bills !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Cottonwood

  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2780
  • Gender: Male
  • "Capturing the moment, to last a lifetime"
Re: Whats the deal with Trespassing?
« Reply #39 on: July 25, 2007, 02:58:01 AM »
This was the artical about the shooting

This is a prime example of why we carry all the time.

The shooting occured at a Wal-Mart in North Little Rock, Ark. where the victim I'm sure could have defended himself IF he were carrying a concealed handgun.

___ KATV Interact ___

North Little Rock - An alleged purse snatching at a North Little Rock Wal-Mart ends in a homicide investigation. Witnesses say a male suspect had allegedly stolen a woman’s purse then shot and killed an innocent bystander. Police say around two Sunday afternoon they received a call about an alleged purse snatching and possible shooting at the Wal-Mart on McCain Boulevard.

When they arrived at the scene they found a male victim suffering from gun shot wounds lying on the pavement.

Witnesses say the victim was walking into the store with his family when the male suspect allegedly stole a woman’s purse. Witnesses say a suspect then turned around and shot at the victim.

(Tyler Jones, 9-1-1 Caller) "They were just walking down here to go into the store...the man just got shot ...The man was looking at him a little bit looking at the suspect and he just shot him. He was looking at me and he just fell. "

(Sgt. Terry Kuykendall, NLR Police) "After finding out the circumstance and getting the information I have to say it's pretty much unbelievable, overwhelming is a better word."

Police say the suspect got into the passenger side of a get away car. Authorities’ say they have a good description of the car but do not want to release it at this time.

Police have identified the victim but out of respect for his family they are not releasing his name at this time.

Notice, the artical did not say the suspect was a 17 yr old kid, and did not say that it was in the middle of the parking lot, but gives the impression that it occured right at the enterance.

In light of what jhm said, in most cases now because a 17 yr old looks much older, it would not have mattered... a purse snatch is an agrivated crime of Robbery on a person, and assault against that person by an aggressor and in most states is concidered a Felony and yes, one under moral as well as legal law can act with force to stop such an attack on a person.

The situation dictates reaction by a bystander at the time, I was not there so I can't play monday morning quarterback on the situation... would I have reacted with deadly force..... condition ONE might indicate my awareness to my surroundings at the time...

Offline jhm

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3169
Re: Whats the deal with Trespassing?
« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2007, 03:51:07 AM »
Well it looks like you want a answer if I thing it right to shoot someone for purse snatching Yes is the answer in the shortest form I can think of, with yopu answer of BS I would take that as a NO so we all know where each stands on the issue, again just too many bleeding hearts in this country, most crimes are against the old, weak, or vary young, who do you select to protect??   JIM

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: Whats the deal with Trespassing?
« Reply #41 on: July 25, 2007, 04:15:08 AM »
Get real guys , the purse snatcher was a gunman ! he shot some one ! had he grabbed the purse and run would you still shoot him ? in a parking lot where other people could be hit ? then you would go to jail for murder if one died from your shot !
I'm as far from a bleeding heart lib. as you can get , catch the guy and hang him if thats the law of the land , but why do you wish to put yourself in a bad position ?
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline NONYA

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2223
  • Gender: Male
Re: Whats the deal with Trespassing?
« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2007, 10:10:14 AM »
Take your liberal comments and jam em where the sun dont shine.Only a MORON would open fire on a kid in a WM parking lot for snatchin a purse,thats the guy that needs to be shot,the MORON who opens fire on a petty thief in a crowded public parking lot.If your as hard ass as you would like others to believe how have you gone through your entire life without shooting 10-20 people?By your standards I have had the opportunity to shoot several people throughout my short life and Im hardly ever without a gun.Get real,if your dumb enough to shoot a kid over a purse snatching you are well on your way to prison.
If it aint fair chase its FOUL,and illegal in my state!
http://www.freewebs.com/lifealongthedge/index.htm

Offline rockbilly

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3367
Re: Whats the deal with Trespassing?
« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2007, 10:43:14 AM »
NONYA.  You are very hasty to draw a conclusion when you have no knowledge of the facts.  This "kid" deserved to have a cap busted in his butt.  Read the story before jumping off the deep end and making harsh comments on something you know nothing about.

I agree that there are a lot of kids that do foolish things, and shooting them would not be justifyed, but I don't live in a sheltered community where I am not exposed to the hard cold fact that even a "kid" will kill or hurt you.  Driven by drug use, gang association, or just the desire to be labled a "bad ass," many of the kids out there today are as hard as any criminal you find.  Age should have no bearing on using deadly force to protect yourself, or another person from these punks.  Society is slowly, but surely coming to realize this, and making adjustment in their laws, enabling many of these young offenders to be tried as adults.

You have already informed me that in "YOUR STATE" I would go to jail for taking the live of a youngster commiting a Crime.  That is your problem, I live in Texas where an individual has full authority to use deadly force to protect themself, or another from the abuse of a young thug, call me a "MORON" if you like, but had I been there I am sure there would have been more shots fired.  Now to the Wal-Mart story.

Good Samaritan slain at North Little Rock Wal-Mart


By Bill Lawson & D.J. Smith / Staff Writers / blawson@nlrtimes.com / djsmith@nlrtimes.com
Monday, July 23, 2007 5:08 PM CDT


 
North Little Rock police officers screen the body of shooting victim Dean Worden, 40, of Jacksonville as Coroner officers place his body in a van. Worden is said to have attempted to interrupt a purse snatching when he was fatally shot (Photo by DJ Smith).
A 40-year-old Jacksonville man who came to the aid of a woman being robbed on the parking lot of the Wal-Mart Supercenter on East McCain Blvd. Sunday afternoon was shot dead by her assailant.According to witnesses, at about 2 p.m. a robber was attempting to take the purse of a woman who appeared to be in her fifties, and began beating her when she refused to give it up. Dean Worden of Jacksonville intervened to help the woman and, witnesses said, was shot in the neck from close range by the assailant, who then fled. Worden died where he fell; the shooter ran away and got into the passenger side of a late-model silver Chrysler 300, which fled the scene.

Late Sunday night, North Little Rock Police arrested 17-year-old Joshua Leallen Loften and charged him with capital murder.

At the time of the shooting, there were a number of people nearby in the parking lot, and they gave similar descriptions of what happened that sunny, cool afternoon.
Trisha Furr of North Little Rock said she was walking into Wal-Mart when she heard gunshots. Furr said she saw a man running away with a gun, heard screaming and saw the victim on the ground.

“How do you know it’s safe to come here?” she asked.

Furr also said the woman being robbed had been getting into her car when she was attacked, and Worden had gotten out of his truck and run to help her.  

Steve Doty of North Little Rock said that he was pumping gas at the filling station on the parking lot when he heard two shots and ran over to see if he could help. He said the robbery victim, whom he described as a red-haired, heavy-set lady about 5-foot-10 and in her fifties, had been punched a few times in the attack.

Paul Walden of Little Rock also was near when the shooting happened.

“I heard ‘Bang! Bang!’ and a scream,” he said. “All I could see was a lady bending over the body. I went to see if I could help but he had bled out. There was nothing we could do.”

Other witnesses said the robber was beating the woman on the head with a gun when Worden came to her defense. They said the woman’s glasses were broken and she had cuts on her head.

Worden’s body remained where it fell for about two-and-a-half hours as police investigators scoured the scene for evidence. During that time, Wal-Mart shoppers walked past the scene and many even brought young children by.

Sgt. Terry Kuykendall, the North Little Rock Police spokesman, said Worden’s death is the 10th homicide in the city this year, two of which had been ruled “justifiable” by the Pulaski County Prosecuting Attorney’s Office. There were 13 homicides recorded in 2006.


Offline NONYA

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2223
  • Gender: Male
Re: Whats the deal with Trespassing?
« Reply #44 on: July 25, 2007, 10:52:56 AM »
ok let me know when you finally get ur chance to shoot some kid in a WM parking lot.
If it aint fair chase its FOUL,and illegal in my state!
http://www.freewebs.com/lifealongthedge/index.htm

Offline Graybeard

  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (69)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26946
  • Gender: Male
Re: Whats the deal with Trespassing?
« Reply #45 on: July 25, 2007, 11:04:48 AM »
Cole you're being a wee tad ridiculous here. READ the facts of the case. Given the facts in that last report above posted by Rockbilly the perp regardless of age did in fact deserve to be shot. If he was beating a woman and as some witnesses described "with a gun" then yes shooting would be fully justified in my home state. That would be a correct and proper response to the situation as described by the witnesses.

I wasn't there I don't and can't KNOW the facts but if I assume them to be as reported by the witnesses the thug deserved to be shot. Age is irrelevant in the matter and only the actions should be taken into account.

What would I do? I honestly do not know and cannot know without having been there and experienced it and I doubt any of the rest of you can either. But from what seems to have come down shooting him would have been justified. Unless the lot was far more crowded than they are around here it likely could have been done in a safe manner. It's not like folks are jam packed like sardines in a can in such a place.


Bill aka the Graybeard
President, Graybeard Outdoor Enterprises
256-435-1125

I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: Whats the deal with Trespassing?
« Reply #46 on: July 25, 2007, 11:12:57 AM »
so it wasn't a simple snatch , it involved a beating with bodily harm ,
make it a good shot then .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline jhm

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3169
Re: Whats the deal with Trespassing?
« Reply #47 on: July 25, 2007, 12:00:52 PM »
And to have the nerve to call someone a LIBERAL,  JIM

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: Whats the deal with Trespassing?
« Reply #48 on: July 25, 2007, 12:08:43 PM »
does liberal mean ya waste oil when ya put to much on your gun ? like liberal amounts of oil ?
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline NONYA

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2223
  • Gender: Male
Re: Whats the deal with Trespassing?
« Reply #49 on: July 25, 2007, 12:13:06 PM »
It started with a purse snatching,and hes saying if you see a kid do this you should shoot him in a WM parking lot,THATS ridiculous,I am talking about shooting BEFORE this escalated into a beating/killing.How many purse snatchings are going to escalate into this kind of situation,ill bet there are 100x more people killed by drunk drivers than purse snatchers ,are you going to shoot someone for driving drunk?What is ridiculous is having an attitude that you should shoot a person over a simple theft BEFORE there is any threat to you or anyone else,to just assume that every thief is going to try to kill you and open fire.I dont care if it is legal in your state it isnt right.If my attitude about shooting a 17 year old kid stealing a purse is ridiculous so be it,there is no way you can justify a killing until there is a threat,not an assumed threat a REAL threat.You sound like you just cant wait to "bust a cap in someones ass",ill bet you never do.
If it aint fair chase its FOUL,and illegal in my state!
http://www.freewebs.com/lifealongthedge/index.htm

Offline rockbilly

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3367
Re: Whats the deal with Trespassing?
« Reply #50 on: July 26, 2007, 04:23:23 PM »
I am happy to see that the laws of the Great State of Montana are not as liberal as some may attempt us to believe.  I don't think this would justify "shooting a 17 year old in the back that has just stole your car stereo,"  but it does provide for using deadly force in the protection of PROPERTY.  To shoot, or not shoot is the decision of the owner and must be weighed by the circumstances.  

Nonya.  If your comment, "You sound like you just cant wait to "bust a cap in someones ass",ill bet you never do." was addressed at me, let me say.  I pray that I never have to use a firearm in self defense.  Over the years I have used one on several occasions to defuse a bad situation, luckily, I never had to pop a cap as a civilian.  

LEGAL PARAMETERS OF LETHAL FORCE
There are several factors that will control, in the final event, in just what circumstances a person may justifiably use lethal force.  The primary ingredients are what the Montana Constitution says, what Montana statutory law (the laws passed by the Legislature) says, what Montana case law (rulings by courts) says, what the local prosecutor will prosecute, and what circumstances will cause a jury to vote to convict a person accused of having illegally used lethal force.
First, the Montana Constitution.  Article II of the Montana Constitution is called the "Declaration of Rights".  This article is comparable to the "Bill of Rights" in the U.S. Constitution.  Section 12 of Article II contains Montana's right to keep and bear arms.  Section 12 says:
"Section 12.  Right to bear arms.  The right of any person to keep or bear arms in defense of his own home, person, and property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall not be called into question, but nothing herein contained shall be held to permit the carrying of concealed weapons."
Concerning concealed weapons, this constitutional provision does not, in itself, either grant or prohibit carrying concealed weapons.  It does declare that carrying concealed weapons is not within the constitutional reservation of the right to keep and bear arms, in Montana.
Thus, to keep and bear arms in defense of self, person or property is a RIGHT in Montana.  Just what is a right?  Black's Law Dictionary, 5th Edition, offers one definition of "Right" as:  "Rights are defined generally as 'powers of free action.'  And the primal rights pertaining to men are enjoyed by human beings purely as such, being grounded in personality, and existing antecedently to their recognition by positive law."  Also in this context, "A power, privilege, or immunity guaranteed under a constitution, statutes or decisional laws, or claimed as a result of long usage."
Certainly, the right to defend oneself is thought by most legal scholars to a "God-given", inalienable, or "natural" right.  Black's defines "Natural rights" as: "Those which grow out of nature of man and depend upon his personality and are distinguished from those which are created by positive laws enacted by a duly constituted government to create an orderly civilized society."  Thus, natural rights are those rights that exist prior to the reservations of rights in constitutions.
Natural rights are recognized in Montana law.  The Montana Codes Annotated (MCA; a collection those laws passed by the Legislature), at 1-2-104, says:  "Preference for construction favoring natural right.  When a statute is equally susceptible of two interpretations, one in favor of natural right and the other against it, the former is to be adopted."
Before turning to the laws of Montana, it would be useful to look at the term "defense", which is used in the Montana Constitution.  It is worth citing Black's entire definition of "Self-defense":
"The protection of one's person or property against some injury attempted by another.  The right of such protection.  An excuse for the use of force in resisting an attack on the person, and especially for killing an assailant.  The right of a man to repel force by force even to the taking of life in defense of his person, property or habitation, or of a member of his family, against one who manifests, intends, attempts, or endeavors by violence or surprise, to commit a forcible felony.  Essential elements of 'self-defense' are that a defendant does not provoke difficulty and that there must be impending peril without convenient or reasonable mode of escape.  The law of 'self-defense' justifies an act done in the reasonable belief of immediate danger, and, if an injury was done by the defendant in justifiable self-defense, he can never be punished criminally nor held responsible for damages in a civil action.  Baltimore Transit Co. v. Faulkner, 179 Md. 598, 20 A.2d 485, 487.
"A person is justified in the use of force against an aggressor when and to the extent it appears to him and he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or another against such aggressor's imminent use of unlawful force.  One who is not the aggressor in an encounter is justified in using a reasonable amount of force against his adversary when he reasonable believes: (a) that he is in immediate danger of unlawful bodily harm from his adversary and (b) that the use of such force is necessary to avoid this danger.  It may be reasonable to use nondeadly force against the adversary's nondeadly attack (i.e., one threatening only bodily harm), and to use deadly force against his deadly attack (an attack threatening death or serious bodily harm), but it is never reasonable to use deadly force against his nondeadly attack."
Blacks Law Dictionary is NOT THE LAW in Montana, but it does contain authoritative definitions to help us understand terms and concepts used in the law.
What do the Montana laws say about use of lethal force?  Most of the Montana law concerning allowable use of lethal force is found in Title 45 of MCA.  The effective laws are found at 45-3-101, 102, 103, 104, and 105, and are recited here in full:
"45-3-101.  Definitions.  (1)  'Forcible felony' means any felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.
(2)  'Force likely to cause death or serious bodily harm' within the meaning of this chapter indicates but is not limited to:
(a) the firing of a firearm in the direction of a person, even though no purpose exists to kill or inflict serious bodily harm; and
(b) the firing of a firearm at a vehicle in which a person is riding."
"45-3-102.  Use of deadly force in defense of person.  A person is justified in the use of force or threat to use force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or another against such other's imminent use of unlawful force.  However, he is justified  in the use of force likely to cause death or serious bodily harm only if he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or serious bodily harm to himself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."
"45-3-103.  Use of force in defense of an occupied structure.  A person is justified in the use of force or threat to use force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate such other's unlawful entry into or attack upon an occupied structure.  However, he is justified in the use of force likely to cause death or serious bodily harm only if:
(1)  the entry is made or attempted in violent, riotous, or tumultuous manner and he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent an assault upon or offer of personal violence to him or another then in the occupied structure; or
(2)  he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the commission of a forcible felony in the occupied structure."
  
"45-3-104.  Use of force in defense of other property.  A person is justified in the use of force or threat to use force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate such other's trespass on or other tortious or criminal interference with either real property (other than an occupied structure) or personal property lawfully in his possession or in the possession of another who is a member of his immediate family or household or of a person whose property he has a legal duty to protect.  However, he is justified in the use of force likely to cause death or serious bodily harm only if he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."
"45-3-105.  Use of force by an aggressor.  The justification described in 45-3-102 through 45-3-104 is not available to a person who:
(1) is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) purposely or knowingly provokes the use of force against himself, unless:
(a) such force is so great that he reasonably believes that he is in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm and that he has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or serious bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) in good faith, he withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force."
(Editor's Note: "The classic rule is that the right of self-defense begins when the deadly danger begins, ends when the danger ends, and revives when the danger returns." (Gravest Extreme, P. 15))
Some definitions may be useful here.  "Tortious" (torshess) as used in 45-3-104 means: wrongful.  "Occupied structure" is defined at 45-2-101(40) as meaning "any building, vehicle, or other place suitable for human occupancy or night lodging of persons or for carrying on business, whether or not a person is actually present."  "Real property" is land.  "Personal property" is anything of value, from money to possessions, even including secret formulae and private electronic impulses (45-2-101(54)).
Finally, Montana has a body of laws concerning Human Rights, found in Title 49, which contains one relevant section, as follows:
"49-1-103.  Right to use force.  Any necessary force may be used to protect from wrongful injury the person or property of one's self, of a wife, husband, child, parent, or other relative or member of one's family, or of a ward, servant, master, or guest."

Offline NONYA

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2223
  • Gender: Male
Re: Whats the deal with Trespassing?
« Reply #51 on: July 26, 2007, 06:48:49 PM »
Two years ago a man here in MT shot a 16 year old kid as he ran away with his car stereo,he got life in prison,nuff said.
If it aint fair chase its FOUL,and illegal in my state!
http://www.freewebs.com/lifealongthedge/index.htm

Offline Cottonwood

  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2780
  • Gender: Male
  • "Capturing the moment, to last a lifetime"
Re: Whats the deal with Trespassing?
« Reply #52 on: July 27, 2007, 02:55:04 AM »
I can tell you from being en ex LEO in our great State of Montana what would happen if you shot an assailant in the back as they ran away... you would go to jail for it regardless of what they did prior to the shooting.  They are no longer considered a threat to you or the victim.  At the time of the attack on the victim, the suspect is fair game for a lethal injection to stop the assault and or shooting of the second victim.  AS soon as the suspect presented a firearm or weapon, he was fair game for a response by a citizen who was rendering aid to the victim.

Grand Jury's are a terrible thing to have to encounter should you be at the defendants table... if you are threatend by a suspect then use the force necessary to stop the threat, but once the suspect turns and to remove him or herself from the scene to get away, the threat is gone.  Right down a license plate, get physical discription etc... do not pursue the suspect to engage an encounter with them, because now you have become the aggressor of the situation.

I can tell you from several personal encounters that I had justafiable cause to use deadly force here in Montana... each time the suspect changed their ways without me fireing a shot to take them out.  If they had continued their assault or advance, I would have used what I have been trained to use to STOP the encounter.  In the county that I live in now, the on coming threat rule is 15 feet in a justafiable shooting in Self Defense that means if they have a baseball bat, knife or firearm you have a green light if you feel great bodaly harm is about to happen to you, or another person.

Now if some suspect is popping shots at random and you have no cover to get to defend yourself, but if you have cover to retreat to, get there and stay down... 911 on a cell phone will bring plenty of back up to handle the HELL your now in.

Life is not as you see it on TV

Now I hope this thread will calm down.

Offline rockbilly

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3367
Re: Whats the deal with Trespassing?
« Reply #53 on: July 27, 2007, 05:40:45 AM »
Nonya.  I think you are hung up on this thing about a "kid running away with a car stereo."  I never said, and do not advocate shooting anyone who is running away, my comments are based solely on a face to face situation that has the potential to escalate into something larger.

The Montanan.  When I talked to the representative from your Attorney Generals office yesterday, I was informed (and agree), a shooting is never a black and white issue.  There are always extenuating circumstances  that may sway a grand jury's thinking, and might lead to prosecution.  However, she did say that under Montana law the benefit of the doubt is most often given to the property owner, and that is is the desire of the Attorney General"s office to act on the behalf of those using deadly force to protect property, if done within the limits of the law. She also informed me that there is a gross difference in the general mentality of the youth offender is rural Montana compared to the mean streets of big city USA.  

Perhaps my past experiences and frequent exposure to threats of harm have seasoned my thinking.  As a former student of Jeff Cooper, a former LEO (Game Warden), and 24 year military career. with two combat tours, as well as frequent exposure to the thugs that walk the streets, I prefer to remain in a high sense of readiness.  Calling 911 is alright in some areas, but even the liberal US Supreme Court has ruled that a citizen can not expect assistance from LEO in all situations, my advice, be ready to protect yourself at all times.






Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: Whats the deal with Trespassing?
« Reply #54 on: July 27, 2007, 06:24:29 AM »
So since one 17 year old purse snatcher turned killer has surfaced , we all need to start shooting all 17 year olds , 17 year old purse snatchers , 17 year olds that run away ?
we can't do that it would profiling , which is illegal in the first place !
If you fear for your life shoot if not chill and enjoy a life without iron walls !
I'm not a bleeding heart , he-- i don't care if ya shoot the SOB , just hate to see good people ruin their life over something so stupid ! We need the pro gun vote !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline williamlayton

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15415
Re: Whats the deal with Trespassing?
« Reply #55 on: July 29, 2007, 02:15:13 PM »
Well now,
You do it your way and I will do it mine.
Given the opportunity to protect someone without injuring a bystander I will do so and if the one I harm dies---and he probably will--I won't care.
if someone breaks into my house and begins too flee when I produce a weapon I will try and see that they do not flee far. it may be that they will head for your place and it may be that they just ran from your place and came to mine.
Now, the law in Texas provides this. I am a law abiding person and I will shoot this person---He needs to be disposed of. Now it may be that this is some kid who may be just making a mistake. I don't believe that for one minute---and i am not putting myownself or my loved ones in danger to wait and see.
A murderer may come closer to being rehabilitated than a thief. A thief is a lazy coward and I have no use for a thief.
Call me a name and brand me for whatever bleeding you may have in your heart for such but I am going to do it my way.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline williamlayton

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15415
Re: Whats the deal with Trespassing?
« Reply #56 on: July 29, 2007, 02:22:01 PM »
Now, what is the deal with a 17 year old? Would it be better and you would be happy and agree if the person was 65?
Seems to me it would be better to get him off the streets sooner than later. I don't believe for one minute that a thief has much of a heart for repentance and rehabilitation---statistics just don't agree with you and they don't agree by a very large proportion.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline 454Puma

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 539
Re: Whats the deal with Trespassing?
« Reply #57 on: August 09, 2007, 05:07:02 PM »
I shoot all thieves here in ID. I don't care what there age is either.  Now the title to this is deceiving -Trespassing is different. But in this case they Trespassed to steal!!
One shot , One Kill

Offline NONYA

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2223
  • Gender: Male
Re: Whats the deal with Trespassing?
« Reply #58 on: August 09, 2007, 06:26:32 PM »
How many thieves have you badass gunslingers shot?I like the Texas law,it should draw a large portion of the psychos to THEIR state.
If it aint fair chase its FOUL,and illegal in my state!
http://www.freewebs.com/lifealongthedge/index.htm

Offline Lawful Larry

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 849
  • Gender: Male
Re: Whats the deal with Trespassing?
« Reply #59 on: August 10, 2007, 08:09:54 AM »
Sorry but I got to say that I hope some of you quick-to-shoot types don't have carry permits.  Hopefully this is all Internet bravado!!!

No life is worth any property, period.  I think if you had shot someone or been shot, you would have different thoughts on this matter.  Deadly force is justified if life threatening situation is presented.  Shooting a fleeing felon is normally for LEO's only, not citizens unless the felon could be seen to imediately harm others. 

Now as to the kid pistol whipping that victim.  It sounds like a justifiable situation for deadly force, you hear that Nonya.  He ain't a child running away from a simple purse snatching misdemeanor act!

Nonya, you got issues pal.  Even after you had the whole story about the 17 year old felon, you still didn't get it! 
Just another voice in the crowd!!!