Just wondering, another 375

[handirifle]

What if you took the new, barely on the market, 375 Ruger case and shortened it to 2.015", like the 308, and put it in a short action carbine, necked to .375 or even .358?

Seems to me it would exceed the 35 Whelen, much less the 358 Win, and blow the doors off a 375 Win.  I wonder how far from the 375 H&H it would be?  If the 30-06 length EXCEEDS the H&H, could this round come close to it?  This seems like it could make for a real powerhouse.

Maybe too much of a good thing?

I'll put the case pics (308, 375 Ruger, 350 Rem Mag) up here to compare.  I use the 350 cause it's said to be the short action equivalent of the Whelen.

First the 308



Next the 350 Rem Mag



Then the 375 Ruger



Pics courtesy of Steves pages

[handirifle]

Oops, just realized i didn't put this in the right forum.

[Coyote Hunter]

Oops, just realized i didn't put this in the right forum.

That's OK - I'd like to see it necked down to a .338 without shortening the case.  And maybe down to a .25.

[handirifle]

The 338 would be a real effective cartridge.  Most likely compete with the RUM's.  The 25 would be a big example of overbore.

[Brithunter]

I see the Ruger .375 has a short neck just like the .300 in Mag and personally I see that as a distinct disadvantage.

[R.W.Dale]

 All you would be doing is reinventing the 30 Newton, A cartridge that's been around for almost a century.

[Mac11700]

All you would be doing is reinventing the 30 Newton, A cartridge that's been around for almost a century.

Actually you wouldn't be re-inventing the Newton...as you can see...the necked down 375 Ruger case would give you more case capacity...Also...since your necking it down...the neck would grow a bit in length as well...So you would have a very effective cartridge...

Mac

[R.W.Dale]

Actually you wouldn't be re-inventing the Newton...as you can see...the necked down 375 Ruger case would give you more case capacity...Also...since your necking it down...the neck would grow a bit in length as well...So you would have a very effective cartridge...

Mac

 SO in other words you'd have a 30 newton copy that would differ from the original by a couple tenths of an inch at the most and have virtually the same case capacity.


 Yes you'll be reinventing the 30 newton

[deltecs]

Mac,
Actually you wouldn't be re-inventing the Newton...as you can see...the necked down 375 Ruger case would give you more case capacity...Also...since your necking it down...the neck would grow a bit in length as well...So you would have a very effective cartridge...


When necking down cases to a smaller bore, actually shortens the neck.  As the shoulder lengthens to accommodate a smaller bore, it naturally shortens the actual neck.  The Ruger 375 case neck is already less length than bore diameter, so reduction in bore diameter to a smaller bore shortens the neck further, and less desirable.  The Newton case has a different head size than standard bolt rifles today so wildcatters attempt to use standard existing brass for the designs.  With the addition of the 338-06, 338 Federal, .338 Win Mag, 340 Dakota, .40 Weatherby and the 338 RUM, any new wildcat would just duplicate these rounds ballistically.  A better round than the 375 Ruger to .338 necked down would be the .333 Rimless Nitro necked up.  Minor gunsmithing, equal powder capacity to the .338 Win Mag or slightly more, and a very long neck to hold almost any length bullet while still maintaining overall cartridge length.

[Coyote Hunter]

When necking down cases to a smaller bore, actually shortens the neck.  As the shoulder lengthens to accommodate a smaller bore, it naturally shortens the actual neck.  The Ruger 375 case neck is already less length than bore diameter, so reduction in bore diameter to a smaller bore shortens the neck further, and less desirable.  The Newton case has a different head size than standard bolt rifles today so wildcatters attempt to use standard existing brass for the designs.  With the addition of the 338-06, 338 Federal, .338 Win Mag, 340 Dakota, .40 Weatherby and the 338 RUM, any new wildcat would just duplicate these rounds ballistically.  A better round than the 375 Ruger to .338 necked down would be the .333 Rimless Nitro necked up.  Minor gunsmithing, equal powder capacity to the .338 Win Mag or slightly more, and a very long neck to hold almost any length bullet while still maintaining overall cartridge length.

I agree with Mac.  The Ruger case is a little fatter, has less taper and is longer to the shoulder.  It’s not a Newton.  Although the Newton is close, the Ruger’s additional case capacity should permit lower pressures for a given performance level or higher performance – take our pick.  More importantly, the Ruger case is designed to take full advantage of standard-length actions.

If Ruger chooses to neck the .375 case down, I’m sure they can figure out a way to provide an adequate neck.  I’m not going to worry about that any more than I worry about the short neck on my .300 Win Mag.

A .338 Ruger should easily outperform the 338-06, 338 Federal, and .338 Win Mag.  The advantage it would have over the .338 Dakota is that the Ruger uses a standard size bolt face and would not diminish magazine capacity.  If Ruger chooses to build such a cartridge it is certain it will get SAAMI standardization, another plus for the Ruger.  The .340 Weatherby, like the Dakota, is not a SAAMI cartridge and the Weatherby is too long for many standard-length actions.  The .338 RUM is also too long for many actions but even if it would fit the fat RUM case would often diminish magazine capacity.  I’ll take a .375 Ruger necked down instead of a cartridge like the .333 Rimless Nitro that wouldn’t have as much case capacity. Thanks, but no thanks.

IMHO.

[deltecs]

I wasn't suggesting that the 338 Federal or 338-06 was equal to the .338 Win Mag or similar.  I was only relating that the .333 Rimless Nitro necked to .338 would be a most sufficient round for standard length actions and magazines with every .338 bullet weight.  The powder capacity of the .333 Rimless Nitro is slightly more than the .338 Win Mag, equal to the 35 Newton or 330 Newton, equal to the 9.3x64, and .358 Norma Mag.  The 375 Ruger case capacity is very close to the 375 Dakota and  375 H&H.  The 340 Dakota case with minor bolt face ream and magazine work holds the same number of rounds as the .338 Win Mag in the same rifles.  The same would be true for the Rimless Nitro, since both have the same head size and base diameter.  I totally agree that a rimless cartridge with the same head size of .532 as the standard mags and without the belt in a case length short enough to work in standard actions without loss of magazine capacity, having a neck length of at least bore diameter would be an ideal weapon in .338 bore.  The 340 Dakota comes closest to this currently, but has a case capacity much more than necessary.  A case modeled from the Rimless Nitro with the long neck and case capacity near the .338 Win Mag is my idea of an ideal Alaskan hunting round and would make a fine plains game rifle for Africa.  As I've stated before, I personally dislike belted rim cases and have never seen any modern necessity for them except marketing.

[Brithunter]

Hmmm if swaging down to a smaller calibre results in a shorter neck, then you just push the shoulder a little further down and probably steepen the angle for the current 30 degrees to say 40 degrees. problem solved.

[handirifle]

deltecs
I'm not familiar with the 333 you mention, BUT, you do mention it would be usable in standard actions.  You ARE aware the 338 Win Mag is also used in std actions as well, correct?  So unless it would offer significant improvement, why not get the WinMAg.

The Ruger case is considerably larger in capacity, didn't do the math, but I bet in terms of extra grains of powder, it's a lot.

[deltecs]

deltecs
I'm not familiar with the 333 you mention, BUT, you do mention it would be usable in standard actions.  You ARE aware the 338 Win Mag is also used in std actions as well, correct?  So unless it would offer significant improvement, why not get the WinMAg.

The Ruger case is considerably larger in capacity, didn't do the math, but I bet in terms of extra grains of powder, it's a lot.

]


The reason for my desire using the .333 is I do not care for any belted rim cartridges.  Since case capacity of the .333 is nearly the same as the Win Mag, ballistics are similar or identical.  The Win Mag has a very short neck and not as desirable for reloading.  I plan to use 300 gr bullets in the .333 for African plains game and the Win Mag looses powder capacity because the bullet must be seated deeply into the powder column in order to fit the standard length action.  The .333 is 1/8" shorter and has a case neck length of 1/2" so the longer bullets are not seated so deep in the case, thus keeping ballistics high without the pressures.  The 330 Dakota case is basically a copy of the .333 with the shoulder blown farther out to give it more capacity.  I do not think any more case capacity is necessary or required above that of the Win Mag.  It is more than sufficient without further muzzle blast and increased recoil.