Do you want to help preserve traditional hunting?

[Idaho Ron]

Idaho went very traditional this year. The problem is we might loose it. The Idaho Fish and Game commission will meet the 18 th of July to probably reverse the traditional rule. If you want to help stop the reversal of the traditional rule please contact them here is a link to do it.  Ron
http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/cms/about/commission/members.cfm

[forest2]

H Ron,
 Aren't you the one that uses a 1/28 twist Stainless Steel Barrel with long conicals?? And those are much better than the "round ball".
And you live in Idaho?
  And you want us to solicit for You, for your state too stay traditional?

 OK? uhm? gosh? aahh?    wwha??

[Idaho Ron]

So what is your point!
 My rifles are traditional by the rules of the fish and game. While they might not meet your definitions, The fact is Fast twist guns were made in the 1860's, peep sights were before that and so was percussion ignition, and long conical bullets.
If you don't like the rule fine. Fact is if this rule goes down opportunity will also go down. The biologists will cut tags and seasons for ML if inlines are allowed back in.    Ron

[forest2]

thanks Ron,
 Yes I want to help.
 Please provide a link so I can tell the guy's in suit's from your previous link," how to" vote against in-lines in/against for your state of Idaho.
 Knight won here in Minn. They can even use "smokeless" powder for muzzleloader season.
 Much to the thanks of other states that allowed fast twist conical shooters for "primitive hunts". (seem's there is something to do with fast-twists and conicals being "primitive" as some say.)

[jlbeebe]

If inlines are allowed back in, will this somehow stop anyone else from using thier 'traditional' rifle?

[Idaho Ron]

In  way yes. The F&G believe that high hunter success in ML hunts is because of inlines.  They have also gone on record saying that if inlines are not kept out that the number of ML hunts would drop. 10 years ago there was VERY little opportunity for ML hunters in southern Idaho. Now we have a good number of hunts and we have hunts that have good sized deer. So in a way Yes if the inlines go back in I can tell you hunts will be dropped.  Ron

[mspaci]

I cant say for sure but I believe we should encourage ALL people to participate in the out doors & for each individual to shoot what makes them happy. A muzzleloader is a Muzzleloader no matter what it looks like. IMO a traditional hunt should be like the one in PA, patch & ball. Sounds like someone wants it one way.  Mike

[Snowshoe]

Here we are allowed to use any muzzle-loader, as long as you load it from the muzzle. I still use a Lyman Trade rifle with patched round ball, and see no disadvantage at all. I have shot against fancy new inlines at the range, and have never been beaten by one yet. If you want a primitive hunt, push for patched ball from a flintlock. Why bother watering it down at all, that leaves too much room for arguments.

[Idaho Ron]

While I didn't  want to get into a fight about conicals vs PRB I got to say that Idaho F&G put out a booklet about effectiveness of several different projectiles. They came to the conclusion that a PRB was not effective. Several years latter they went traditional and modern. The Traditional guns had to be loaded with a PRB. To put it blunt, because you want it that way. The F&G saw too many wounded Deer and Elk after the PRB hunt. In fact they were looking at making a 45 illegal all together, and a 50 cal round ball would be illegal because it was not heavy enough.
 Yes Most of Idaho F&G's Regional Staff is wanting to use a traditional style rifle. Yes they want to use a ALL LEAD conical or PRB.  If the traditional rule the dept has right now is flushed down the drain the number and quality of our hunts will drop.
 In my opinion I don't like PRB's I don't think they are humane and I will never use them. I am not saying I don't want you to shoot them. I am saying my own code of ethics say I will not use them.
For the guys that say let them shoot anything. If they go back to shooting anything we can forget about any hunts. It was only a few years ago that we had NO ML hunting south of the Salmon river. The Regional Supervisors have said that hunts will be lost if inlines are allowed back. How can I explain it any better.  Ron

[dmurphy317]

This is my take on the subject, yours will probably differ.

A game departments primary job is game/herd management. They fund their operations mostly through license sales. They try to cater to the largest number of hunters as they can within reason but still have to manage the herd size based on the carrying capacity of the habitat. The number of tags available each year are determined by how many animals there are and how many need to be removed to meet the goals of the management strategy with a factor based on approximate success rate. It is not uncommon for the number of tags to be reduced or even increased based on the circumstances at the time of evaluation. That is the long and short of how the number of hunts available are usually based on. Some may argue that funding is increased by maximizing hunts with lower success rate firearms. While this may be true, the number of ML hunters compared to the modern rifle hunters makes this a very small % increase. BTW, here in NM they did decrease the number of tags in several hunts this year.

As to the type of firearms used, I find less of a difference in 6" point blank range between any of the inlines I've tried vs my traditional style rifle. There is a  greater difference in say a 30-30 and a 300 ultra mag shooting factory 150 loads (52%) than a GPR with round ball at 1800fps and an Optima with a 250 shockwave at 2100 fps (41%). The difference in drop and energy in a bow shooting 230fps and one shooting 330fps is 100% at 50 yards.The differences in range within any hunting weapon category is just a fact that exists no matter what you hunt with, it is a choice each of us has to make as to what is preferable to the individual. The only fair way to limit range is to limit the projectile type and the sighting device used. Even the sighting device is less important than the projectile in my opinion. My GPR shoots just as accurately out to 150 yards as my Magbolt, the Magbolt has a scope, the GPR does not. The shooter has as much or more to do with it than the style of gun or sighting device.

Finally, there is a difference between hunting and Rendezvous, one is for sport, one is for reenacting. While I enjoy getting back to the old ways when reenacting, I prefer to hunt with whatever will get the job done the most humane and effective way no matter which firearm I choose to hunt with. That is why I prefer to hunt with conicals vs PRB. I still consider that for a primitive hunt to qualify as primitive, it must be flintlock or older. My percussion rifles, both sidelock and inline, all have very reliable and fast ignition compared to a flinter. The range of the flinter is not significantly different but the reliability and speed of ignition is. Hunting regs need to be based on sound info not just the desires of a small segment of the hunting population.

Again, these are my opinions based on what I've seen and done, your experience may be different and that's OK.

[jlbeebe]

Here is my take on the subject, as dmurphy317 stated yours will probably differ.

I'm not surprised that the game departments have a hard time deciding what traditional is. Traditionalists can't even agree on what traditional is. The only thing anyone agrees on is that inlines are not traditional. I won't argue that point. I just don't see why any one hunter cares so much about what the next hunter is using. Inlines might have an advantage over traditional rifles but the inline hunter can only shoot one per tag, just like the traditionalist. Does having an inline allow me to shoot more animals as opposed to a traditional rifle? If I hunt the centerfire season with a 30-30 should I tell the guy next to me he shouldn't use his .300 mag because it has an advantage over my rifle? We need to quit bickering amongst ourselves as it hurts everyone in the end.

[captchee]

Ok a couple things here
1) idahos muzzleloading rules have were based  on traditional framed weapons from day 1 . Even after the modern inline ignition hit the  scene they were not aloud  until I believe 1992   when  the states traditional  groups lobbied the commission to allow the modern weapon so as to raise hunter numbers and provide greater opportunity . However that state wide opportunity has never really shown itself .
 With the current rules standing  here , your only aloud  1  species  in most of the state . Some areas have 2 deer hunts but generally its just 1. Now  that’s 1  for all seasons so if you fill that tag during archery then your done  for the rest of the year .
 So basically the view that  by keeping the traditional rule here will reduce hunter numbers is a big line of  do do , as  if you’re a hunter your still going to purchase that tag .
 Now you may not purchase a muzzleloader stamp , but your still going to hunt in the season with the greatest opportunity and that’s the general season .

2) as to the ballistics performance sheet put out a few years back .  It was flawed big time . You simply cannot produce compressions of wound channels by shooting multiple times into the same ballistics jell . it was also pushed and brought about by modern shooters who were trying to justify and gain acceptance into the muzzleloader season

 I hunt strictly with a RB  with the exception of  when im hunting the  canyon for bull elk . Then I use a conical . I will tell you first hand , you put a RB where it needs to go and it WILL do the job  just as fast and clean as any 2 dollar conical on the market .

3) the  reports last fall that I seen were not about RB losses but  small caliber conical losses   in the 45 cal range . These were field reports  taken from carcass’s  and in most cases the rounds were not legal in this state anyway , yet folks were still using them .

4)  we should also keep in mind that  possibly in just a few years this issue will be mute anyway .
There is a very good chance that we will shortly be going to a draw system  such as Oregon has OR a chose your weapons system where you will only hunt one season .IE if you chose archery , when archery is done , your done . So ask yourself  how many  shooters will be willing to hunt a 5 to 12 day muzzleloader season over a 3 week center fire ?


 This rule that is on the books now is a good one  and IMO needs to stay  100% as is , will it ? Lets hope so .  Eather way , get ready because chances are  there are going to be even bigger changes within the next few years

[dmurphy317]

Hello Captchee how are you?

If I understand point 1 it sounds like the Idaho regs are moving toward what we have had for a while in NM. Here we have a draw system for virtually all big game except some bear and turkey. I moved here from TN where at the time we could hunt ML, bow and CF and get something like 15+ deer. Here you put in for whatever you want but can only draw 1 tag per species, i.e. 1 elk, 1 deer, etc. It has taken me 5 years to figure out the system, and I'm still confused sometimes. I do understand the reasons for such a system, very low population of animals compared to back east and a greater need to control the harvest. I think it sucks but that is the reality of the situation. Maybe going to a draw system would help the deer/elk population to become more stable and healthy, maybe not, I don't know. That is one of the main reasons they gave here for going to all draw hunts.

Your point 2 is something I'm not familiar with. The data I posted was based on my own research of factory published data and personal testing. I do agree that the RB is a capable bullet within reason and that the conical has more energy when needed but again, the differences between the 2 are not any more than between lower powered CF's and higher powered CF's that hunt in the modern season. The differences in trajectory between a RB and a conical within 150 to 200 yards is not significantly different, at least in the loads I use. The energy is the biggest difference. Sabot rounds do offer a little flatter trajectory beyond the 100 yard mark but they are easy to regulate out as Colorado has done there by leveling the playing field between the capabilities of the two styles of guns. The legal sighting system is all thats left to complete the leveling of capabilities of the two. Everything else is pretty much cosmetic after that. At least thats the way I see it as a hunter. No system is perfect so there has to some compromise to pull together and move forward.

[captchee]

 Doing fine murf how are you .
I think we are talking two different data lists here . I was referring to the data that for years  the  Idaho commission has used .
 I at one time felt it was good data . However  a few years back I found out that  there was some short cuts taken . This IMO  scraps the whole  credibility of the tests ..

 As to  muzzleloading ballistics . One way of looking at it is that we cheat in a way .
 Many modern folks are fond of saying that muzzleloading weapons can never reach  center fire ballistics. Well that’s in some ways true  however false at the same time .
 If we ask ourselves what gives a  190 grain  bullet fired from a cartridge such  high energy  , its really 1 thing , velocity.
 However  we  often  get the same results  within a given range  .most often  with modern muzzleloading bullets  which produce very close  to the same energies  even out to 200 yards as many  popular cartridge projectiles . How can that be you say !

 Simple . While a muzzleloading projectile moves at a slower velocity , it is also a whole lot bigger  in weight  thus it doesn’t need to  be fast to produce those higher energies  or larger wound channels  in comparisons to modern cartridge rounds .

 Now with the round ball , its something along the lines of the old saying about a helicopter . Helicopters shouldnt be able to fly  yet they do . Same with the round ball .  That projectile alone  has counted for more game taken   then any other projectile  post arrow . IMO its  more then proven itself .
I look at the RB very much as an archer would an arrow . IF you don’t become proficient with  you weapon so as to put the projectile on the mark , your not going to be happy with the results  no mater  spear , arrow RB , modern conical or modern center fire .  going to a bigger bullet , longer range rifle or faster projectile  will never take the place of proper shot placment .

 Now if we want to talk about lost game numbers , I can tell you the highest numbers of wounded and lost game does not come  from muzzleloaders or archery  but center fire , general season hunts .

 Now recently  a group of modern shooters up north  convinced one of the commissioners that there was no difference between modern and traditional .
   he called me  and we had an hour long chat  about it .
 I told him that  I wouldn’t give him advice but instead  give  him questions to think on .
First was this .
 If  the commission wants to settle this   easily then simply place a barrel requirement of  no faster twist then  1in 48 or 1 in 60 . Keep the ignition system open . .   only open sights and black powder . 

As to what the differences are  and the thought that there is no difference   he should ask himself this .

1) compare prices . IE compare traditional rifles and modern rifles within the same price range
2) if  modern muzzleloading rifle did not have an advantage then why did they evolve ?
 The manufactures taunt  all the superiorities.  not to long ago when the modern weapons folks were try to show just how superior their system is to traditional systems .  Now they are saying they are no different
 ?    Cant have it both ways . Either it was lies then or lies now
 If the fact is that  these folks are right and the modern weapons are not superior then why has not the states attorney general   filed a fraud case against  modern muzzleloading companies who are  ripping of  the residents of  their states by  enticing them to purchase their product by making false claims

 No mater how you cut it , if it cleans easier , shoots farther , is lighter , more weather resistant  is it not  an improvement ?

 Anyway  I can say this . A change has been made  and if that change is reversed then myself , I will be  requesting quite often  when ever I speak to the commission or they to me that  we go to a chose your weapons season as soon as freezable possible    or  that we do away with muzzleloading season s in this state , for there simply is  no reason to have one .
I also believe its not a mater of  traditional shooters agreeing on whats traditional . I think everyone even a 6 year old can recognize a traditional weapon .
 With traditional shootings its really more of what degree of correctness a given rifle is . Some want more  while others  are happy with less .

 Anyway that’s my take on it

[dmurphy317]

I'm doing pretty well too, having to fill a contract position up in Colorado for the time being and not getting to do much shooting lately.

I've spent some time looking at ballistics over the last 5 or 6 years. I shoot both CF and ML and hand load for the CF's so ballistics kind of goes with the territory. Velocity is the big difference as you state. If comparing a 30-30 with 150 bullet to a ML with a 250 sabot load then I would say the energy is similar out to 200 or so, +/- a couple hundred FP. If you compare the same ML load to my 175gr 7mm RM elk load, there is no comparison, the 7mm has as similar energy at 300 yards that the ML has at the muzzle. Now if I compare the same 7mm load with my 460gr conical load that I shoot in my Great Plains it is still no comparison with the 7mm matching the conicals muzzle energy at about 325 yards. Now I understand these are just a few comparisons but they are of common calibers used in the general hunting population. Other calibers would be closer, others would be farther apart. I do however agree that the larger the projectile the slower it can be going to do the same job as the smaller faster projectile.

The facts on lost game comes down to people, not hunting device. There are always those who are too lazy to look for the animal after the shot or to practice the shooting skills needed to humanely harvest the intended game. Not all lost animals fall into this category but I suspect many do. Education is probably the best way to deal with this, not more regulation.

As to your questions, here are my replies.

I would lean more toward projectile limitations rather than twist limitations since accurate loads can be developed for any twist/bullet combination thus defeating to some extent any perceived advantage or disadvantage.

I don't see where prices for the guns has anything to do with the effectiveness of the gun. Maybe I'm missing your point.

Advantages/differences? Yes there are things that are advantages and things that are disadvantages in the "modern" ML'ers. They are easier to disassemble and unload due to the removable BP. But the extra parts make it slower to clean because of more parts to clean. From a function/shooting stand point there is little difference. When using the same projectile and powder there is little or no difference in capability. The type of projectile is still the biggest determiner of capability, followed by the sighting system. The primary advantage I see is the appeal of the designs for those who are more familiar/comfortable with those styles from the CF world, of course marketing departments are always hyping anything they can to create a market and a sale.

I find my sidelocks are easier and faster to clean, shoot accurately and just as far with similar loads and can be made more weather resistant with techniques commonly used 150 years ago. The built in weather resistance is one small advantage that some modern designs have but this only affects the reliability not the accuracy or capability. Also the 209 ignition is slightly more reliable than the #11 but not by much if properly loaded. In some cases the 209 is a detriment as in 777 and the crud ring.

I have never believed the hype about the huge improvements a "modern inline design" is purported to have. In my experience I have not seen that much difference in the performance of my inlines to my sidelocks. Even comparing the BP Express Ultimate shooting 200 grains of powder to my 7mm, it doesn't come close. I'm am looking into getting a flintlock and I do expect to see some differences in that platform vs the others.

Sorry for the long reply and I hope you have a good night.

[jlbeebe]

I agree that inlines have an advantage with telescopic sight as they are esier to aim. However if you can only buy one tag then I say there is no advantage as you can still only shoot one animal. I carry an inline during the shotgun season here in Iowa. I don't complain that they have the advantage of being able to sling lead all over the countryside while I can only shoot once. Sometimes I carry an inline during the ML season and sometimes I carry my old hawkins. Here in Iowa very few shots are over 100 yds. (for me anyway).  So I don't see much difference between the two. Here in Iowa you can hunt with your inline, caplock, flintlock, matchlock, wheellock, or any other oldstyle I might have missed. Around here if you feel someone has some mythical advantage over you because he has an inline then carry one yourself. If you don't like to carry an inline then carry what you want. There is nothing to complain about. Maybe I'm being to simplistic but I just don't see  how the rifle another hunter uses has any bearing on my hunt.

[NONYA]

We dont get any muzzle loader season at all,we have to use them during general rifle season,id wouldnt b**** about limited tags at all if we had ANY.

[manofthe45]

I cant say for sure but I believe we should encourage ALL people to participate in the out doors & for each individual to shoot what makes them happy. A muzzleloader is a Muzzleloader no matter what it looks like. IMO a traditional hunt should be like the one in PA, patch & ball. Sounds like someone wants it one way.  Mike

Pa has since dropped the ban on conigals in the flintlock season.  Much to my happienies they are also allowing peepsites beginning this year.  Drastic steps that will cause the end of our traditional season.  I think not

[jlbeebe]

I see no reason for separate seasons at all. This does nothing but segregate us as hunters. The antis are a united group and we should be as well. I use my muzzy during shotgun season and I don't feel that other people have an "unfair" advantage over me. I shoot my deer they shoot thier deer. I just don't see the problem or the need for a seperate season.

[merhunts]

I agree that inlines have an advantage with telescopic sight as they are esier to aim. However if you can only buy one tag then I say there is no advantage as you can still only shoot one animal. I carry an inline during the shotgun season here in Iowa. I don't complain that they have the advantage of being able to sling lead all over the countryside while I can only shoot once. Sometimes I carry an inline during the ML season and sometimes I carry my old hawkins. Here in Iowa very few shots are over 100 yds. (for me anyway).  So I don't see much difference between the two. Here in Iowa you can hunt with your inline, caplock, flintlock, matchlock, wheellock, or any other oldstyle I might have missed. Around here if you feel someone has some mythical advantage over you because he has an inline then carry one yourself. If you don't like to carry an inline then carry what you want. There is nothing to complain about. Maybe I'm being to simplistic but I just don't see  how the rifle another hunter uses has any bearing on my hunt.

I agree with jlbeebe. If you want to hunt with traditional weapons than do so, but don't try to make the rest of us that embrace technical advances to hunt with what you want to hunt with! They all have one similar disadvantage, that is they have to be loaded in the muzzle for every shot. How the gun is configured is only the personal preferance of the hunter. I suppose next your going to say I can't hunt with my semi automatic rifle because you want to hunt with a single shot rifle. I think they should just have deer season period, and a hunter gets to use what ever legal weapon he wants to. Bow, Muzzleloader, Shotgun, Rifle, and Pistol. I have never understood why people can't let go of the past.

[captchee]

  maybe no initially  but over time it will . how long of time , who can say .

 my point above on comparing like  price  systems is this .
 To  compare a modern  muzzleloading firearms  in the 150 -200 dollar range  with a traditionally framed  rifle , say a  production Tryon rifle  that would come in at say 500-700 is ludicrous . Why ? Simply because  most folks getting started into muzzleloading  don’t spend that much money right off the bat .

 The most common  entry level commercially produced rifles   simply are  in the quality of  early CVA or now traditions and then ranging up to the TC and lymans . 

So we have to ask ourselves what do these rifles come equipped with ?
 Traditional rifles < basically a 1/48 or better twist #11 cap or flintlock, fixed or adjustable sights .
 IF one follows the factory recommendations often times you will also find loads confined to under 110 - 120 grains depending on the maker . While many different bullet s are available  most folks are confined to solid lead conical  or round ball through these rifles   unless one wants to purchase an aftermarket barrel OR  spend the time out on the range “ which everyone should “ to work up a proper load for  their chosen projectile .
Its my opinion that most folks simple don’t  do this


Modern rifles < everything from 209 primers #11 cap , faster twist barrels , 1 in 32 or better . open sight or scopes ,fiber optics . Most times  also much higher recommended charge loads . Some  manufactures  in the higher quality range exceeding 200 grains .

 These rifles are also  designed  for the modern bullets on the market today  not just lead conical or  RB  if the load is worked up  for a given range .
So basically you have a  reasonably accurate  choice of projectile ranging all the way up to  copper jackets ,, core locks  even sold copper or alloy  bullets specifically designed for  these modern rifles


I recently set in on an Idaho game commission meeting where a lady brought in a photo of  Tryon rifle   set up for long range shooting “ 400 yards + “ and exclaimed. You have removed modern inline ignitions from  muzzleloader hunts here because of their supposed range . Yet this traditional rifles is used for ranges  out to 1000 yards .

 She failed to mention however that the sight alone on that rifle  costs  as much as many higher quality modern muzzleloaders . The entire set up  would equal about 3 modern rifles .
 Now does this mean that  these rifles are not out there ? Nope  however they  simply are not common  , nor does the common shooter have the experience to get  any where near the possible accuracy of that rifle  even at 150 yards .

 Hence regulating twists of barrels will define everyone to  a short band of
 Projectile choices 

 Maybe I have  just seen or been within the process of this issue for to long and I see things that others don’t see .
I witnessed and help  in a small way start the original  muzzleloading  units in this sat back in the mid 1970’s .
I watched and listend to the modern industry push  for acceptance ,even voted for the acceptance of modern muzzleloader designs in this state  back in 1992 .
 Since that time I have also watched  each year  the modern movement push  for expanding the laws  starting with  wider  powder choices . Then the request for  inclusion of sabot , a push for 209 primers , closed ignition ,  conical’s, racketed bullets  and this last year  smokeless powder and scopes.

 Now keep in mind that  all through this  process  we have had  pretty much an even ground  across both   forms  of weapons .  But each year  the modern movement has wanted more and more  to the point that  we had modern rifles being used within  traditional hunts  here in Idaho  because of a technicality in the regulations .

 This last year  prior to this change  many folks requested a change in the rules for traditional  units to say” Side lock only”  so as to close that loop hole .

 Little did  many folks realize  that the state was already looking at  the issue of technologies  through out all the seasons . Combined that with low game counts .  Advance technologies coming down the road . past experience with  the never ending push  for acceptance of even more technologies  , its not hard to see why this came about .

 One step always leads to another and another and another . that’s simply the way of it .

Now know that Idaho ron is right  IMO .  Getting the state to over turn this ruling will result in loss of opportunity , it already has in northern Idaho  and if you think for one minute  the loss is just for this year ? LMAO man you simply do not know how  the system works

[captchee]

merhunts and jlbeebe , you both bring up good point and is something being heard more and more as technologies advance  into special hunts .
 no one really had a problem with  archery or muzzleloader hunts when  they were confined to  more traditional regulation . However has  modern technologies have entered  into acceptance  , each year it becomes harder and harder to justify  the WHY or need for these hunts .
 Most certainly we all have to agree that  short range weapons hunts are most time set up for a reason IE management in areas with high human  populations or near to high populated areas .
 But past that  the largest population of hunter “ general any weapons  or center fire hunters “ are seriously starting to question  providing opportunities  that exclude them .
Personally I have  to agree  . The current situation but for very few cases  simply does not justify  having these special seasons .
 Myself here in Idaho I cant say I have ever hunted but 1 time a muzzleloading only area . I simply hunt the general season with my flintlock or  sometimes  the close by short range weapons areas  with shotgun and archery shooters .
 Basically because there is  no close by opportunity and because the greatest opportunity to harvest  within my area is within the general season   

[merhunts]

I understand that certain areas should be short range weapons only, because of so many houses in the area. We have areas in NC where you can only hunt with a centerfire rifle if you are at least 8 foot in a tree stand. But to say that I can't hunt a certain week or two because I don't like the idea of using a flintlock, or sidelock Is not right. A muzzle loading season should Include all guns that are loaded in the muzzle, however they are made or configured. Its like saying I can't drive on a certain road because I drive a Mercedes and not a Ford. What I drive is totally up to me, and the road is open to all legal vehicle. Same should go for what I want to hunt with. The whole purpose of hunting is to control the population. If we didn't have a population problem we probably wouldn't be allowed to hunt at all, since we no longer have to hunt to put food on the table. These state saying that the harvest numbers are down need to realize that the more regulations they put on hunters and what weapon we can or can't use are just making an already elusive animal that much harder to harvest. In NC we have some very large game land that has only one entrance, and there is a gate 50 feet from the road 99% percent of the hunters never get 600 yards off the road leaving the rest of the land as sort of a sanctuary for the deer to hide. If they are concerned about harvest numbers. Maybe it would be a good idea to make the land have more entrances. I don't really care what everyone else wants to hunt with. If a person wants to challenge himself with a more traditional weapon than so be it. I just don't think that weapon should have its own season. Same goes for crossbows, if I want to hunt with a crossbow than I should be able to, It is a bow isn't it. Or do traditionalist consider that a crossrifle. In NC you have to have a handicap permit to hunt with a crossbow. People are trying to make it too complicated.


Here is how the rule book should read for every state

Use whatever legal weapon that is made by man.
You can shoot X number of bucks and X number of does. And no more
Special permits are sold for certain high risk areas.
Good luck on your harvest.


Simple

[captchee]

Well  I would have to agree and at the same time disagree .
 While its true that hunting in general is based for management , often time  the viability for a given weapons system has very little to do with management  while having a greater  opportunity for experience .
 Muzzleloading  up until the acceptance  and to some  still great  part , in this state anyway  is very low  on the scale as a management tool . There simply is not the numbers to make it  greatly effective . This hold true even for archery  even though  the archers have a 30 + day  state wide season .
 Muzzleloading here , be it modern or traditional only has  a small  set of units /areas  which have a special season . Those areas  up tell recently  are selected   on a given game base  that can withstand a special opportunity  on and above the general season .
 When those  game numbers drop because of  an increase in harvest numbers , the special opportunity is lost  or reduce by placing  the hunt by permit or draw only  .

 There are and have been regulations in place for  50 + years here pertaining  to  the very thing your speaking of .
 My  30.30 that I converted to muzzleloading back in the mid 1970’s is not legal to use  in a muzzleloading hunt . Yet if I like I can use it during the state wide  general season
 Cross bows are not legal in archery season  unless you have a handy cap certification. Yet they are open for use in the general season .
 We have rules for archers that regulate the let off of a bow , arrow length and weight.  Until recently you couldnt use expanding broad heads  .
 There are areas where you cannot use ATV’s yet can go with motorcycle . Roads you can go with a 4 wheel drive but cant with a 2 wheel drive .
 Other where you can walk , ride a horse  or mountain bike  but nothing else .
We even have sections of  rivers where you cant take a jet boat  during given times of the year but are aloud to  raft  or kayak.
Some areas open to fishing  are designated fly fishing only  or areas of no live bate .
Some fly fishing streams I believ even go so far as to  say wet fly only
  Other areas allow you  to use what ever you like
All this is to  provide an added experience  for  the many aspects of public use  not just management of game  but over all management  which includes big game , small game , upland game bird , land management  and yes even people management

[merhunts]

My  30.30 that I converted to muzzle-loading back in the mid 1970’s is not legal to use  in a muzzle-loading hunt . Yet if I like I can use it during the state wide  general season

The problem I have with this is why isn't it allowed in muzzle-loading season. It's loaded in the muzzle isn't it. Is it because the style wasn't made in the 1800's? Does it give you a better advantage over a flintlock? No, you still have to load it in the muzzle, shoot, and reload in the muzzle put a cap on, before you can shoot again. The same as if it was a flintlock. So what is different? It is in the shape of a 30.30 rifle that's what. It doesn't fit the wardrobe that traditionalist are after. That's what I think is the whole problem with their argument. When they see another hunter with a modern muzzle-loader it ruins the play that's going on in their mind, where they are pretending to be in the frontier days. Wake up people time ticks by and things change daily. And we have to change with it. That does not mean you can't with the old style guns. I don't think there should traditional muzzle-loading separate from the regular muzzle-loading season. If you really want to go with extreme Tradition than I guess we have to throw stones because that is bound to be the first weapon. Why did they change. My guess is the man who invented the spear found out he could throw it more accurately. And every new weapon in history was invented because someone had a problem with the existing weapon and wanted something that worked for them. That weapon was not excepted by everyone. But it was just fine for him. That is why I said the comment about play acting, because traditional weapons are not a necessity in the management of wildlife. It is a personal preference of some people. and that is the way it should be, A PERSONAL PREFERENCE

[captchee]

well actualy lol  ist not legal
1) the caliber is below  the legal minimums
2) the ignition is closed when the bolt is closed
I myself built the rifle , well I should say converted it . In my mind its never been a muzzleloader but simply a muzzleloading  firearm .
 Past that it  meets the current requirement of having an exposed pivoting hammer .
  . I basicly built it to say I could .

I wouldn’t use it  even if I could
Why ? Simple its not about how you dress , heck its not even about  being period correct or primitive .
 Muzzleloading season here was set aside for the main reason of giving the opportunity to experience the hunt and take game  with a weapon system that  most are not familiar with . A firearm that  was used to  build this country . One that’s very much responsible for  gaining our freedoms . Basically its about the firearm  not how you chose to dress , camp. To say otherwise simply doesn’t float   but for a last ditch effort my modern folks to justify their non acceptance .

 Now not all states season are that way , that’s fine , I personally have no problem with that .
 I believe however  when  modern technologies reach the point we have today , they have no place among  season designed they way ours  is .
 If you purpose it to hunt more  then by all means  hunt tell you hart desirers but   in a season that accepts the modern technologies you chose to use .

Anyway we will see what happens  its along way from being over even if the rules get change back to last years wording .
 But realize again  it all maters not for  this issues time is limited .
Car to take a bet  how many  folks  continue to use modern muzzleloaders  when  your only give  1 season to chose ?
 My bet is  not many .
 Thus the end result is the same

[merhunts]

My main beef with the the traditional season in they want a season for the old gun separate from other muzzle loading guns. In my opinion there is no difference because they are both loaded in the muzzle. I really don't have to worry about it for now because in NC muzzle loading guns means just that. They don't have a separate season. I just don't agree with having a separate season.

[merhunts]

Idaho went very traditional this year. The problem is we might loose it. The Idaho Fish and Game commission will meet the 18 th of July to probably reverse the traditional rule. If you want to help stop the reversal of the traditional rule please contact them here is a link to do it.  Ron

As far as the original question, the answer is NO. I would open deer season for what ever weapon was legal for the whole season. No separate seasons at all. Although I would not shorten the time any.

[dmurphy317]

Captchee said,

" Muzzleloading  up until the acceptance  and to some  still great  part , in this state anyway  is very low  on the scale as a management tool . There simply is not the numbers to make it  greatly effective . This hold true even for archery  even though  the archers have a 30 + day  state wide season .
 Muzzleloading here , be it modern or traditional only has  a small  set of units /areas  which have a special season . Those areas  up tell recently  are selected   on a given game base  that can withstand a special opportunity  on and above the general season .
 When those  game numbers drop because of  an increase in harvest numbers , the special opportunity is lost  or reduce by placing  the hunt by permit or draw only  ."

This seems to follow a lot of what I stated earlier, "The number of tags available each year are determined by how many animals there are and how many need to be removed to meet the goals of the management strategy with a factor based on approximate success rate." The number of animals taken with ML or bow is always a relatively small percentage of what is taken in the general firearm season. If the herd population is dropping then the primary tool for management is to reduce the number of opportunities to harvest, simple math. I'm not sure about Idaho but most states I've hunted in allow bow hunters to hunt all the seasons and ML hunters to hunt the ML season and the gun season. So by looking at seasons as opportunities, the bow hunter has the most opportunities with the ML having the second most opportunities and the CF gun having the least opportunities. So it looks like we should all gang up on the bow hunters based on the opportunity theory since they have the corner market on it. But of course this makes little sense due to the success rate of each type of hunting weapon. The real point is that we all share the woods at from time to time.

I still fall back to the data driven conclusion that extending the opportunities to hunt with a front stuffer by limiting the equipment used is better served by going with a system more along the line of Colorado where the bullet type and sighting system is the defining point, not the cosmetics of the action style or twist of the barrel. The bullet is the business end of the delivery and the sight is the routing system for that delivery. What the originating end looks like does little to influence the outcome of the delivery. An inline design does not shoot inherently better than any other design when using the same bullet type no matter what twist the barrel has.

I also still believe the shooter is more important than the gun in determining the outcome of the shot. Most guns will shoot more consistently than most shooters can when using an accurate load. Those who practice more or have a natural ability are going to be able to harvest at consistently longer distances than those who don't, no mater what they shoot with. I have a friend who can drop deer consistently beyond 300 yards with CF rifle, beyond 200 yards with ML, and beyond 100 yards with bow and pistol. Is he the norm, no, he is a certified sniper with a natural ability and 10's of thousands of rounds under his belt. Can the average hunter shoot like this, probably not, but some may try and that is their mistake not the systems.

Captchee says this about Idaho,
"...its not about how you dress , heck its not even about  being period correct or primitive .
 Muzzleloading season here was set aside for the main reason of giving the opportunity to experience the hunt and take game  with a weapon system that  most are not familiar with . A firearm that  was used to  build this country . One that’s very much responsible for  gaining our freedoms . Basically its about the firearm  not how you chose to dress , camp."

If that is what the Idaho season is really about then more power to you. It's kind of like the flintlock season in PA, unique and special. But if it is more of a management tool, as most states have, then I would have to question why the exclusivity of only allowing a certain type of action in the hunt (plus bow hunters if allowed). The opportunity to hunt with whatever you want is there in more than just the ML season so I don't see a deficit in opportunity, just an increase of exclusivity. I can understand the desires of bow hunters having the woods to themselves without all the noise of the gun hunters but don't understand the flip side of the question in regards to ML type. As I've stated before, I am into hunting more than reenacting and see little difference in the experience based on what type of gun or bow I use. I choose what I'm hunting with based on what I want to hunt with not just on what season is going on. If I want to hunt with my bow or ML in gun season I will, same with bow in ML season. This year I will probably hunt only with my smoke poles but may change that if the situation changes or I just feel like it. Again, it up to the individual to choose what he likes and is comfortable with.

As before, these are my opinions and views of these issues and I respect others rights to their own opinions. The discussion is hopefully helping to share the fact that there are many opinions and points of view on most subjects and only through balanced and reasoned compromise can a happy medium be reached for all who participate. 

I hope everyone is having a great weekend.

[captchee]

My main beef with the the traditional season in they want a season for the old gun separate from other muzzle loading guns. In my opinion there is no difference because they are both loaded in the muzzle. I really don't have to worry about it for now because in NC muzzle loading guns means just that. They don't have a separate season. I just don't agree with having a separate season.

LMAO well i would submit  that its actually the other way around . the modern shooter had to push to be included into the muzzleloading season .
 thus  the areas that  are defined as general muzzleloading areas are  established for the purpose of  modern muzzleloading  .
So  in fact the ones asking for special acceptance are modern weapons shooters