Do you want to help preserve traditional hunting?

[ms]

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    Re: Do you want to help preserve traditional hunting?
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2007, 08:41:45 AM »   

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I cant say for sure but I believe we should encourage ALL people to participate in the out doors & for each individual to shoot what makes them happy. A muzzleloader is a Muzzleloader no matter what it looks like. IMO a traditional hunt should be like the one in PA, patch & ball. Sounds like someone wants it one way.  Mike
 
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I AGREE!

[captchee]

i could agree with that murf  but for one thing , we played that game  this last spring .

 a fella  IMO supported by the modern industry . proposed a  projectile requirement. Many of us figured it was a good idea tell we got to looking at it .
 The end result  would have been a minimum projectile  weight that exceeded the weight of the RB .  In fact  the result was that even for deer you would have to shoot a  rb  just und 69 caliber  before it would be legal .
 
 It was findly seen who and where this was coming from and headed off  before any momentum could be  built .
 A ruling such as the one proposed would have effectively shut down  traditional shooters who ’s rifle most times are of a twist two slow to effectively shoot a heavy conical .

 that’s basicly why  the rules states a projectile cannot be  smaller then .010 of the bore  and now smaller then 45 cal for deer or 50 cal for elk .

Why do you have to stipulate  that ? Simply because  the fact the many folks were using sabots   to shoot   sub caliber rounds  from their legal rifle .

So now we have a rule that states  the projectile must be  comprised of  soft  lead
Why ? Because it was found that  when the wording said lead alloy folks were once again  playing a wording game .


Myself I had no problem  back in 92 with allowing modern muzzleloading into the muzzleloading season here .
 Much like you I felt that  if the modern weapons were regulated to only being aloud to use  soft lead , loose black powder , completely exposed ignitions  using #10 or 11 caps , open sights   that we  would all be pretty much even  past some minor differences .

 However over the last 15 years I have come to the conclusion that  there are fundamental differences, not only in the weapons but also in the people who shoot them . Which comes first or has caused the other ? I cant say .. But they are there  to say there isn’t simple  an non understanding of the base , reason and overall evolution of both weapons systems . Something like cutting the head off an giraffe and sewing on a monkeys head and then  claiming the new animal to  be  part of the  human family tree .

 What I can say is that I was wrong .It saddens me to say  but  I should never have  pushed  for allowance . 
 Really its created a big mess .for not only are the limits  and rules of our season constantly under pressure to  be opened up wider  but now we have modern center fire  shooters  starting to  question why the season exists at all when   folks are constantly  asking for more allowances  while at the same time keeping them out ..
We  have up until this year had 2 separate hunt areas  because no mater how we cut it the two systems simply are not compatible. Even when regulated to a short set of rules , the people are not compatible when place into an environment together

 Anyway as you said there are many , many different views   and that’s very true .
 Im just thankful that  in a couple years this will be over here . While im not much into going to a permit only or a chose your weapons type  set up  I see no really way around it given the  current overall situation here .
 My bet is that if you see these new muzzleloading rules over turned , there will be a big push  to go to  the new set of rules , sooner then later .

 We also have to remember  muzzleloaders are not alone . I have witnesses  during the public meetings  more and more archers even starting to  say enough is enough  concerning technologies within their  ranks .
 The wave is building  fellas  and the dam  its not going to hold  when it gets hit

[jlbeebe]

All of this controversy is what leads me to believe that there should be no separate seasons at all. If you are allowed to choose your weapon, those who are die-hard traditional shooters will continue as they always have. Those who want more technology will go to the inline or centerfire. I do not believe that a person using a centerfire is going to ruin my hunt just because of his or her choice of weapon. As our population is growing it only makes sense that the hunting woods are going to get more crowded as time passes. Separating the season into tiny pieces to try to satisfy minorities will not help this problem.

[merhunts]

All of this controversy is what leads me to believe that there should be no separate seasons at all. If you are allowed to choose your weapon, those who are die-hard traditional shooters will continue as they always have. Those who want more technology will go to the inline or centerfire. I do not believe that a person using a centerfire is going to ruin my hunt just because of his or her choice of weapon. As our population is growing it only makes sense that the hunting woods are going to get more crowded as time passes. Separating the season into tiny pieces to try to satisfy minorities will not help this problem.

I Agree

[captchee]

Well maybe . However 
Making a chose you weapons season will do is reduce a populations impact .  By spreading things out more .
 Right now a person can hunt every season  so the numbers of hunters stay relatively constant  through the end of the year  spiking only I believe during the general any weapons season  .
 Be dividing those folks up  your going to reduce numbers across the board  for each season  to include the general season  as many archers and muzzleloader folks will still chose to  hunt the primitive weapons seasons .
 This also converts back to  less impact on game populations , roads, forests , streams ,
As the human impact gets spread more evenly vs. the large heavy use it get  during the whole season now .
 The other plus is that it leaves the seasons open . IE you purchase a tag  for your season and you go hunting .
 The other option is  hunting by permit only . Thus like Oregon currently does for deer .
 You put in for a permit, you might get one for where you wish to hunt or you might  get one for somewhere else . Maybe you wont get one at all .?

 So tell me fellas  what do you want to do ? The state has told you what they will do .
 I guess some of you don’t believe them.
 They said if they didn’t make this change  that  opportunity would be reduced .
  Some folks didn’t listen and saw only that they couldn’t use their rifle during a muzzleloader season . So the cried out . mind you  those numbers as i understand it  are still less the 3%  of the hunter numbers in this state .
 i have been told somewhere around 19% of  the muzzleloading hunter numbers  in this state .


 The state did what they said they would do  and made the muzzleloading units in  those areas short range weapons hunts . So now they have archers , shotgun shooters and muzzleloaders all in the same time frame . Thus they reduced the opportunity , this will continue  .
 What im trying to get across is the end result is the same .  I believe that a vast majority of modern muzzleloading firearms  owners  if give the opportunity to use a center fire . Be that a  rifled shotgun or  smaller caliber  center fire  rifle would choice that weapon over their the modern  muzzleloading rifle  .
 Now understand , im not saying all , im just saying a large  numbers .

 Thus the number of modern  weapons  will naturally  if not greatly decline .

 So we have a choice , bight our lips and support  what the state is saying needs done OR  become a squeaky wheel . Prolong the enviable with a smug look on our faces  and then wake up one morning wondering what happened ? 

 

so what is it that we are agreeing on? that we have diffrent oppenions about modern muzzleloading in general . well i would agree  with that . but
 what it really comes down to isnt about agreeing or disagreeing its about understanding  the information your being given .
 some may not like it  but it doesnt change that information

[captchee]

here is the latest

IDAHO FISH AND GAME
HEADQUARTERS NEWS RELEASE
Boise, ID

Date: July 24, 2007
Contact: Ed Mitchell
(208) 334-3700



commissioners reconsider muzzleloader rules


The Idaho Fish and Game Commission, in response to complaints from some hunters, discussed the definition of muzzleloader loader weapons, but commissioners took no action on the rules during their July 19 meeting in Salmon.

The existing muzzleloader restrictions will remain in place during the upcoming hunting seasons this year.

Brad Compton, the Idaho Department of Fish and Game's big game manager, analyzed the options for the commissioners.

In response to critics of changes to muzzleloader rules adopted in January, the commission could consider several options, Compton said. One is to leave the rules as they are. Another option would be to go back to last year's rules. A third option is to simply allow the in-line bolt hammer weapons while keeping all the other current restrictions. And a fourth option would be to eliminate all restrictions - for ease of enforcement.

The muzzleloader rule changes adopted in January are generally well accepted, Commissioner Gary Power said. But with the same powder, "the kind of hammer makes little difference in performance," he said. "That just makes it look old."

Commissioners took no action but generally favored option three as the simplest way to silence the most complaints, especially from muzzleloader hunters in the Panhandle Region.

Most muzzleloader hunters, hunt with stock weapons, Commissioner Tony McDermott said.

"They're just working guys that want to take advantage of the opportunity to go hunting in the late season," he said.

The department will gather public comments on the options and submit them to the Commission in January.

Current Fish and Game rules require that muzzleloaders must:
- Use all-lead bullets within 10/1,000 (.010) inch of the bore diameter. Sabots are not allowed.
- Have open sights.
- Use only loose black or synthetic powder.
- Have an exposed, pivoting hammer.
- Have an exposed ignition using only flint or percussion caps - 209 primers are not allowed.

[NONYA]

Id rather have it the way it is here,i have to ml hunt during the season but i can use whatever I please.You purist/traditionalists really get a kick out of limiting the options of others you deem non-traditional.You know what tradition has proved in the history of hunting,hunters will use the most hitech weapon at their disposal,thats tradition.If your so damn traditional and primitive why dont you hunt with a spear or home made bow?

[captchee]

 been there done that ,,, you ?
 
 but ha to each his own  just as long as its legal 
 what ever floats your boat .

[NONYA]

AS long as its legal and you dont petition the F&G to make what is legal ILLEGAL,these guys are crying over inline muzzle loaders and sabots and pellets and....Im sure glad our F&G dont bend over every time the purists get a bur in their pantys.

[manofthe45]

Or give them both a season.
PA:

Muzzleloader season/ one week long doe only any ML,  Any bullet, and any sight system

Flintlock season/  two to three weeks,  flintlock only,  open sights only (peep sights now legal),  Rb or conigal only.  Buck or doe may take a doe with unused buck tag.


Not a perfect system.  I would love to see bucks allowed in Ml season and I do not agree with barring Sidelock percussions from the traditional season I am in no way pushng to see it happen.

In a perfect world I would love to see my state go to a all weapon season and control the harvest with tags, but it will never happen.  God forbid the Bow Hunters have to share their season and the rut.  Sorry I hunt with a bow, but do not consider myself a bow hunter.  I am simply a hunter and I will just have to continue to use what is legal when it is legal.

[captchee]

AS long as its legal and you dont petition the F&G to make what is legal ILLEGAL,these guys are crying over inline muzzle loaders and sabots and pellets and....Im sure glad our F&G dont bend over every time the purists get a bur in their pantys.

ok then dont petition the F&G to make whats not legal ,,,legal ? so this would in fact make all modern out .
 Are you just looking for a fight ?
Because  it seems you know or understand little of this subject here .
 if you did you would understand that  the only petition brought forward was to  concerning our traditional units . This change was brought forward by the F&G itself . Supposedly because of management need .

 All these other rule, like no pellets , sabots  209 and such , we have always had from the day the modern weapons became accepted into  the Idaho season .
 yes thats right i said " from the day modern weapons  became accepted "
 it took 7 years and the backing of  the weapons by this states muzzleloading groups before  the modern weapons were aloud in .
 also understand that  traditional muzzleloading groups  work very hard to get those weapons in .

 maybe it would be best if you took the time to read all this thread before jumping in on folks here .
 as these  topics go this one has been pretty calm , folks are discussing  the issue and not fighting . well up to a few posts ago anyway
 So you barking up the wrong tree

 but ha , i have had my say .  if anyone has any real questions about whats happening PM me . ill be glad to do my best eather to answer your question , get the info for you  or point you to the office that can .

 be safe

[NONYA]

The traditional units were made so in this way,a group of purists got together and petitioned for a change to EXCLUDE the inline guys.They have tried to do the same here,and we dont even get a ml season,BUT the purists dont want us out there with an INLINe during a season you can use ANY centerfire rifle,they also asked that we not be allowed to use sabots during a season when i can use ANY centerfire rifle,your purist buddys just cant stand the fact that their weapon of choice has been redesigned into a superior waepon,the INLINE,and they dont want anyone in the field with anything but their choice of weapon,its rediculous,thank GOD my states F&G commision had some common sense and didnt even put their proposal up for a vote.

[captchee]

NONYA
 Look .
 Here  you can use a muzzle loading weapon in any hunt that is aloud for center fire . In fact  if the area is not designated muzzleloader you can use what ever you like , sabots, corelocks, 209, jacketed rounds, scopes , electronic ignitions ,,,,, what ever you like . The restrictions only apply to muzzleloader designated hunts or areas .

Again understand  our muzzleloader hunts were established in the mid 1970’s .
 Many of the folks that  worked to establish these  areas still work with the fish and game concerning these rules . In this  existent we are lucky because we have folks that can  say exactly what the intent was and why . Basically they made the rules .
 Modern   inline weapons were not aloud into the muzzleloading hunts here until 1992 and then only under strict guidelines .
 There is also traditional weapons that are also not aloud within our season even though some of the modern rifles still are

 Keep in mind  the rules are always behind the technologies coming out .
 Our rules used to be simple and basically said any weapon loaded from the muzzle .
With 45 cal the smallest for deer and 50 the smallest for elk .

 However it was found that if  the rules  were not specific then folks  would  push the limits .
 IE using smaller round in sabots . This was un acceptable  to all but those   using these rounds , so  rules were made to clarify .
 Same with the  rules on caps . At one time it just said percussion cap . But folks  had to  push and use  water proof 209 primers . So now the law says no 209’s

 This is why the traditional groups here  requested a change in the areas designated traditional muzzleloader ONLY  so as to have the definition say Side lock only .
It wasn’t the traditional hunters  stretching the law
 The conservation officers were finding modern rifles being used  because the law read exposed pivoting hammer .
 Basically  it was  thought  when the rules were written that  even a child could tell the difference  between  what was traditional and what wasn’t .
 But some folks must always   feel they should  take advantage of a loop hole in the law . So those making the laws must always be trying to figure out how to close those loop holes so that the  intent of the law can be  protected

 However as I said before the commission had already requested information on technologies concerning muzzleloading weapons used during the general muzzleloading units .
 Thus the IF&G themselves proposed these changes  stating  game management needs for this change .  Basicly what the IF&G management section said was :
 That if they did not curtail the technological advancements in  muzzleloading hunting and  by moving  many of the modern weapons to the general any weapons season then they would have no choice but to  cut back on areas where muzzleloader or muzzleloading weapons were aloud .
The commission adopted those changes based on  that proposal .

 Now you may not like that ,,,,, that’s OK I have no problem with that . However  again  I suggest that you get alittle more understanding of whats really happening and why  here in Idaho before you start pointing fingers at others.

 While we may never know what came first , the chicken or the egg.
 However concerning muzzleloader hunts here in Idaho , we know what came first ,  what came after  and why .
So basicly you have things backwards . Its not traditionalists fighting for   the commission to give them a special area .
 Its modern shooters fighting to get into areas that  they have never been aloud , using technologies that  have either never been aloud  OR  new ones continually coming  down the road .

add that to a growing game managment issue and the writing is clearly on the wall .
 to point a finger at any one group  is simply  missing the real issues

[Idaho Ron]

Thank you captchee, You said it all. Ron

[NONYA]

But they wernt breaking any law,they were using new technology that the purist find non conforming to their idea of a ml,so they filled their petitions and did away with them.Were any of the guys using 209 primers or sabots effecting your day in the woods?NO.They were just using something you wernt and the purists cant have that!These innovations only make a ML more reliable and more lethal,what the heck is wrong with that?It may not be the same group here but they are the same type of people,people who want things to be only the way they see fit and they are willing to take away opportunity's from other hunters to do it.

[dmurphy317]

Captchee,

I can see your point about the bullet weight restrictions as you outlined it. My thoughts were along the route that Colorado has taken for reasonable restrictions that would limit the capabilities a bit with out throwing so many of the modern muzzle loaders out of the game. With a couple of minor edits it could work for Idaho and accomplish most of what your wanting in what I would consider a fair way. Here is a quote from their hunting info.

"3. MUZZLELOADING RIFLES & SMOOTHBORE MUSKETS
a. In-line muzzleloaders are legal.
b. Must be single-barrel that fires a single round-ball or conical projectile
the length of which does not exceed twice the diameter.
c. To hunt deer, pronghorn or bear, they must be min. of .40 caliber.
d. To hunt elk or moose, they must be min. of .50 caliber.
e. From .40 caliber to .50 caliber, bullets must weigh min. 170 grains.
f. If greater than .50 caliber, bullets must weigh min. 210 grains.
g. Shotshell primers are legal.
h. Pelletized powder systems prohibited in muzzleloading seasons.
i. Cannot be loaded from the breech in muzzleloading seasons.
j. Only open or iron sights allowed in muzzleloading seasons. Scopes prohibited.
Fiber optic sights and fluorescent paints are legal. Artificial light,
batteries and electronic gear are illegal.
k. Sabots are prohibited in muzzleloading seasons. Cloth patches are
not sabots.
l. Smokeless powder prohibited in muzzleloading seasons. Black
powder and black powder substitutes are legal.
m. Only legal muzzleloaders allowed in muzzleloading seasons."

The bullet restriction still allows 50 cal RB. It does not mention pure lead but that is an easy edit. Since 209's have not been legal in Idaho that could be left out. Other than that it would meet the goal of limiting most all muzzleloading guns to a similar capability without leaving all the people who already have the modern style guns out of the mix.

How would that sound to you?

[captchee]

But they wernt breaking any law,they were using new technology that the purist find non conforming to their idea of a ml,so they filled their petitions and did away with them.Were any of the guys using 209 primers or sabots effecting your day in the woods?NO.They were just using something you wernt and the purists cant have that!These innovations only make a ML more reliable and more lethal,what the heck is wrong with that?It may not be the same group here but they are the same type of people,people who want things to be only the way they see fit and they are willing to take away opportunity's from other hunters to do it.

the answer tho that is simply no . however what they were  doing was circumventing  the laws because of a clarification issue .
A good example would be speeding. Just because  the sign says 75 mph it doesn’t mean that you should do 75 , folks have to use some common sense  or they are breaking the law and will get a ticket .
 With the case of sabots . The rules said 45 cal for deer and 50 for larger came like elk .
 This didn’t mean using a 45 cal rifle but firing a 40 cal round .
 However that’s what it was found folks were doing  so in order to stop that practice the went to the  no sabots requirement and now the not less then .010 under bore regulation.

Same with the 209 primers . The laws for both modern and traditional areas stated exposed ignition .
 The rules want you ignition subject to complications of vast different weather conditions . However the modern 209  primers  are virtually moisture proof  even when exposed .
 So it was deemed that this was un acceptable  under the intent of the law  OR if you like the reason for the LAW  thus they are  not aloud .
 This is also why the electronic ignitions are not aloud  and why even if the commission reverses their ruling   this next year , closed ignition systems will still not me aloud within muzzleloading hunts

 Just with all laws , no mater hunting or general public law , there are reasons for those laws . Sometimes those reasons are not simple  and it takes  a little work to understand the why of it  but in the end there is always a reason .
  Do people always agree with that reason ? No

[NONYA]

If you are not breaking the law the you HAVE NOT broken the law,just because in YOUR opinion it isnt right dont make it so,as i said one group of people forcing their opinion on another group to suit their standards,I hope the hunters in your state get organized and fight back,thats the only way to keep things balanced.

[captchee]

Well Murphy  let me say this since you are asking for my opinion.
 Now understand this is just my opinion, NOT the opinion of the TMA or  on whats happening here which is what I have been in my past posts trying to explain

So this is my opinion.
My father  was one of the original  people who worked to get  a separate  hunt for muzzleloaders in this state. At the time he also worked for Idaho fish and game as a biologist. So me being in my teens I also was in a small  way ,part of the development of  muzzleloader seasons in this state .

 The season  was establish as an opportunity for folks to experience  and have the opportunity to hunt with a  firearms system which itself was as much as possable ,void of modern  technologies.
IE it didn’t mater if you drive a jeep , truck, MB or horse to the area you hunted .
 It didn’t mater if you carried a set of binoculars , a CB radio or a color TV.
 
 By  choosing to use such a weapon  it was felt , I believe,  that a person  had to have some semblance of dedication  to over come all the  complications that came along with that weapon . IE problems with weather , short range , proper shot placement , different recoil ,,, not to mention dificulty of  diffent open sight systems

 A person simply needed  experience above and beyond  the every day  center fire in order  to  ensure the system was and stayed consistent and reliable.

 While it is true that some wished to experience  the hunt in  a more  primitive way by  wearing an outfit or using period gear “which in itself creates an even greater challenge”
 Most to include myself most times hunted and hunt just as any archer  would .    
 So  the reason was basically the opportunity for the experience in a safe environment. .

 Muzzleloaders and the  modern muzzleloading firearms  , at least in this state , but for a few small exceptions simply do not have  the numbers to make a valid management tool .
 Thus the season  or I should say areas provided , because we don’t have a state wide season  are basically areas that can    sustain a  small number of added harvest that  the muzzleloading hunters can take advantage of .

 So this is how I feel on this subject and as I said above  this is my own personal  opinion  .
 If  OUR muzzleloader season  is not about experiencing the weapon , then why do we have it ?

 Unfortunately the modern muzzleloading firearms have had the  name in-line attached to them . While I understand  that’s what their ignition is , it in no way compares with true in-line muzzleloader ignitions  which in most case have even more draw backs to their use then  a traditional side lock. Now does this have anything to do with looks ? No  more the mechanics and specific needs of that system in order to  make it a consistent system to use .  

So would I have a problem with  such systems being included within our season? No I wouldn’t  and this includes  modern  systems that have ignitions based on  actual  muzzleloader spacific  designs .
 However where I draw the line is in the allowance of modern center fire adaptations  using  bolts with firing pins , closed ignitions , removable breeches , scopes , electronic ignitions ,  jacketed bullets  that can take higher velocities so as to  maximize trajectories and ranges , palletized powder , stingers and such .
All this technology takes away from the reason for the season .

 Now modern shooters simply state they want more time in the woods  and a better chance of taking game . I can understand that . However  the way I see it is that very same thing can be done with a system that has the numbers and is a  effective management tool . That system would be the center fire rifle or general season  hunts here .

 See if our  end reason for hunting isnt about the experience then it has to be about management , not about killing .
 Killing for simple want of killing or enjoyment of killing simply isn’t acceptable . Lets face it hunting  still exists  because of one fundamental reason ,,Management .,,,
 Its simply the best management tool we have . The reason of sport  or experience is all second seat to the need of management .

So if our muzzleloader season isn’t about experiencing  an old weapons system in all it glory  and  the numbers of folks who partake in that experience are not large enough to make it a management tool then  again , why do we have it  other then to provide the state a reason to charge us another tag fee ?.

 Simply put  all of the reasons I have heard for modern muzzleloading  can be better taken care of by simply extending the general center fire season , thus providing more time to hunt AND a very effective   system for managing wildlife .

 So if the Idaho rule is to be  reversed I would  just a soon see them do away completely with  muzzleloading in this state . I simply do not see a need for it . those who wish to use a muzzleloader or muzzleloading weapon could still do so in the general any weapons seasons . Mind you utializing all the bells and whistles that make their system as effective as i could be . however i submit to you that  gievn the choce most modern muzzleloading folks would chose not to use thier inline  but replace it with a 30.06, 7MM or what have you .

 As to Colorado’s rules  
 Now as I understand it Colorado also removed the modern weapons for one year .  I also understand that their decision was reversed not  because of public not accepting the change but because of big money getting involved  IE outfitters and  modern muzzleloading companies placing  their money  square behind  opposition to the change .

 Now I would like to say that   allowing such things to happen is  not sound management principles . However  Idaho is in no better shape . Our game herds are in trouble   with the exception of white tail in northern Idaho .

 I was recently told  that  we have solicited  biologists from other states to look over our data . This included biologist from Colorado. Now I have been told  and heard  during  public hearings that what the findings said was that basically our big game populations have dropped well below sustainable rates .

Colorado  minimums state I believe a 15% B to D ratio .  I believe Oregon and Washington are the same . Yet many of the units here are pulling in 3 to 10 %  with and average as I understand it of 5% B to D . so now I ask you  what is the  IDF&G to do ?

 Simply the only thing they can do .
1) reduce hunter numbers
2) reduce  hunter impact
3) basically reduce hunting  opportunity in general

 Un fortunately here  muzzleloader hunts are low man on the poll . The modern muzzleloading weapons hunters are even  lower within that category because they have been  aloud in muzzleloader season for the shortest amount of time . The untouchables seem to be archery and center fire seasons .
 But I believe that in a few years your going to see this impact on them as well

So will your rules  from Colorado work ? With  a revamp  possibly. Do I feel it will change the end result , sadly no.
 The  acceptance of technologies within  our  seasons has started to  over reach the basic reason for the season and it shows no sign of slowing down or  for that mater a greater  acceptance of   those technologies . .

 The end result  will be IMO  a greater reduction of opportunity here .
 Now there will always be a need for management  so most  certainly im not suggesting an end to hunting . But what I am suggesting is those opportunities we now have are going to change greatly. The going out an buying a tag  type of everyday hunting for big game has just about hit the end of the road .

What I see in the future is  specific smaller opportunities  with hunters being tied specifically to one  method of take . I also see many species becoming  hunting by permit or draw  IE lottery , only .

Anyway , this post is long enough , hope that answers some questions about my opinion LOL  

 Be safe .  

[captchee]

If you are not breaking the law the you HAVE NOT broken the law,just because in YOUR opinion it isnt right dont make it so,as i said one group of people forcing their opinion on another group to suit their standards,I hope the hunters in your state get organized and fight back,thats the only way to keep things balanced.

 i just dont know how to make it any clearer to you . your stuck on the idea that sombudy is taking something away from you .

 you simply cant have something taken away that you never had  even if you think you did . .
loop holes in the law  are just that . once they come to the attention of those  writing the laws  those loop holes get closed  .
why ? simply becouse they were never INTENDED to be there for people to take advantage of in the first place



  if you traveling down a road at 75 mph but the weather conditions are deemed un safe to  travel that speed , you are breaking the law , period .

 Most certainly by using a 209 primer   when the regulation say percussion cap your not braking the law .
 And that’s why folks were doing it  and getting away with it .
 However the intent of the law is that you cannot use a water proof system  thus you  would be breaking the intent of the law  and could find yourself in hot water .
 So to stop the abuse of the intent , clarifications were added .

All laws are this way  for the same reason . The written law  is made to support an intent of the law .
 When the writing is found  short of protecting the intent  new law is written.

 This is why many states have included the right to hunt  in their constitutions.
With out such specific wording  it was easier for AR groups to take away your hunting privileges or molest your hunt .

 Without intent there simply is no reason to have a law , in fact you cant have a law without intent

   At one time  a person  could plan to murder another but if  that  murder was not carried out , there was no crime .
 However we now have laws that  clarify that  and  having and intent to comit a crime is many time just as bad as committing it even though  that crime may never have been

[NONYA]

I dont know how to make it clear to you that a group just like yours TRIED to take away my right to use an inline during out general season,because it didnt meet their idea of a muzzleloader,because it is a superior weapon to the one they choose to use,because they have a stick up their *** and cant stand to see a hunter using a weapon they have deemed unfit.The laws are clear and if you are not breaking them then you are LEGAL,you are reading into them what YOU want,the law doesnt say slow down to 55 when it rains,what dont you understand about it?Why not use a waterproof system,how does that effect you in the field if another hunter has a waterproof system?Its just an opinion being forced on another group plain and simple.I am grateful that the opinion of a group similar to yours was ignored and labeled unreasonable by our F&G commision,I hope your state eventually gets a commision with common sense and allows the guys with modern Mls back into the ML season.

[captchee]

     NONYA
 am sorry i have tried my best to explain to you    the ways of things . It appears we live in to different worlds . I  wasn’t part of a rules change in your state so I cant say what happened . I also don’t believe you know what  any organization I belong to does or  works on . Again I cant help but feel your lashing out or blaming folks for issues that you may or may not fully understand .
All I can do is try to explain how things work here .



 I have tried my best to explain how the law works  concerning intent   . May I suggest you contact your local law enforcement concerning these maters  so you fully understand the example of a maximum speed limit  and your liability  for breaking the law  or getting in an accident and what your liabilities are ..
 Maybe they can explain the differences of intent of the law and written law so you can better understand the process

 might i also suggest  that you contact the Idaho fish and game department .  it only takes a second to write them a letter exsplaining why you feel that modern muzzleloading should be included here .
i would most certianly also include why it is you feel modern muzzleloading  weapons are supirior  and should be used  inplace of traditional one .
Im sure the comissioners  and managment directors would love to here the details . maybeit would even help them make their final decission, who can say 

 I would also make a point here  to others reading these communications ,if I may . Now  again I cant say what the laws are in your individual states. however here  I know that each year the IF&G puts out a regulations pamphlet.
 One should understand and take hart that this pamphlet is not the complete written law  concerning hunting in  this state . It is only an over view .  A person would do well to  request a full  copy of the  hunting laws in your state AND keep them current .
 Its your responsibility to understand  the law , its intent  and how its applied .

 Not understanding  or  understanding it wrong is no excuse when you have inadvertently made a mistake

 Be safe     

[dmurphy317]

Captchee,

Thanks for your clarifications and insights. From all you have posted it sounds to me like Idaho has more of a herd management problem than a muzzleloader problem. If the game population is down and the ratios are off that much then the only real answer to the overall problem is to reduce the number of hunts and/or tags until the numbers are there to resume a more normal hunting situation. I would encourage the F&G to consider a balanced approach where all forms of hunting are reduced equally in order to accomplish the needed corrections in the herd.

Many of the western states have had drought conditions over the last few years which has affected the game populations. In NM they have gone to a draw only system for deer similar to what has been in effect for elk etc. for a while due to decreasing numbers. Most tags in NM are limited to a 5 day hunt and you only get 1 for each species, not weapon, if your lucky and draw. It is a pain in the backside but if it means a sustainable game population, hopefully increasing population, then it is worth the decrease in opportunity in the short term in order to gain long term health of the herd. Out here in the west it's definitely different from the hunting I did/do in the east where one can, in some states, get multiple deer with each of the different weapons systems (bow, ML and rifle) over a nice long season. In Mississippi you get about 4 months of deer season, same in Tennessee. They have such large numbers of animals that the annual harvest is much higher than the total population of deer in many western states. This may explain some of the misunderstanding that some hunters have when defending their opinions on what should be included in a ML hunt. Their paradigm is based on what they are use to.

Of course, this is just my opinion as well.

[Trapper-Jack]

Simply the only thing they can do .
1) reduce hunter numbers
2) reduce  hunter impact
3) basically reduce hunting  opportunity in general

Captchee,
You have said a mouth-full with the above statement.  I agree with you but due to the fact that IF&G gets a lot of their revenue for operation is from license and tag fees, options 1&3 would be like shooting themselves in the foot and the only workable option that I can see to help the situation would be to reduce the impact to the deer population.  The goal of the mule deer intuitive as I understand it is to attempt to bring back the herd numbers of the 50's and 60's and provide quality hunting as it was then.  Reducing the hunter impact is only one area of this problem.  Other factors are weather conditions, depredation and habitat preservation/restoration to name a few. 

There is not a lot that can be done about the weather conditions be it drought or severe winters other than a feeding operation which has it's own set of draw-backs and is expensive.  Predator control in the wintering or fawning areas will cost additional dollars if a bounty system is employed, and with fur prices in the toilet there is not much to motivate the decrease of predator numbers.  With current agricultural practices, the habitat preservation/restoration thing will also cost money for reimbursement to private landholders and management of public lands.  With the surge of population growth from outside the state, currently the 3rd fastest growing human population in the country, where do you think a lot of those new houses are being built?  In the middle of the deer winter range.

I think the F&G is walking a tight rope trying to satisfy as many hunters as possible with the least amount of impact to the deer and elk population while trying to deal with the other impacts that are not hunter related.  It's time to step up to the plate and see what you can do to help instead of whining about not being able to use an inline.  If you want to use your inline use it on a coyote, cougar or wolf (once they become legal) and take part of the pressure off the deer and elk.  Take it from me, it's a more of a challange than a centerfire!!

I'm sure there will be a lot that don't agree with me, but thats my opinion.

[captchee]

 i think your right jack . there simply is some hard issues that will need to be  implemented.
 I think this is the first step . As I said I think in a few years we will  see this  also impact the  center fire and  archers , it simply has to .
 However it seems that  what is happening is they are starting  in areas with the smallest numbers  or maybe its just the  groups that do not seem to put in very much input  in the overall situation .
 Traditional muzzleloading groups have worked hard for a very long time with the IF&G  on many issues not just muzzleloading .
 
 So for now it’s the modern muzzleloading folks getting curtailed . There is not doubt in my mind if improvements are not made then  muzzleloading as a whole will be impacted . If that doesn’t work then the archery communities will probably be next before any move is made concerning the general seasons

As I said before . Its my opinion that under the current allowances there is no need to have a muzzleloading season   . I wish that wasn’t true  and I have tried to see a way to justify the season continuing . However  the more I listen to  the modern folks ,  the more im sure that if not held strictly to  a given set of guidelines then  there simply is no justification to be found.  IF the reason of experience is no justification for rejecting  modern technologies  then where is the need for this type of hunt

 Again there is a lot of work to do .   There are folks that are not going to be happy no mater what . But if we are going to provide any type of opportunity  for future generations  then we have to do something .
 No buddy wants to be first on the chopping block  but somebody has to .

[dmurphy317]

Hmmmm, predators, sounds like good target practice.

[NONYA]

According to the data i could get online your commonly hunted game like deer,elk and antelope are on a several year increase in numbers...

http://www.idfishnhunt.com/currentreport.html

[captchee]

According to the data i could get online your commonly hunted game like deer,elk and antelope are on a several year increase in numbers...

http://www.idfishnhunt.com/currentreport.html

Nonya  you have to remember something , you cant always believe what written in a magazine or paper .

 As  trapper and Murphy have stated above in their posts . A major draw for the state is  licenses , especially out of state licenses  for the general season . Its imperative that  people see  this as a great destination  for trophy game .
I would have to also say that it is IF you can afford to either have a guide or  a way to access the back country  or specific areas of private land  then you will find that there are still  opportunities for some very good hunts .

 However this is not general across the state  for residents .

 Reading and believing such  advertisements and I say that because that’s what they are .
Is really part of the problem . Folks read those things and then think  WOW we are in real good shape . However if they take the time to go to either one of their regional  1/4erly management meetings or  the main commission meetings at the end of the years and listen to  what the management folks are say . Suddenly you  get a complete different view .
 The spring game counts for the unit I hunt  which has no muzzleloader season  so I hunt the general season . That spring count came in with a 8% B to D ratio for deer  this year .
  Now keep in mind that  this unit is bucks only  for general hunt . Doe’s if you draw a tag .
 In  our 4 day hint we covered near 6 miles  , glassing  and working the canyons . In that time we counted   243 doe’s and 2 bucks . Those bucks were  forked horned  bucks .
 Of those numbers I would have to guess that more the 25% of those do’s were big barren doe’s  with no young .

 This isn’t just a one year thing . Folks have been  reporting these same  observations for some 10 years  now , it’s a very real issue  despite what you may read on the net.

Elk numbers very even more  with some areas sustaining good numbers while other that traditionally supported strong herd   numbers  are seeing  reductions in numbers so great that  the units either have a permit only hunt or have  gone to  very short seasons.

 This is why concerning elk  the state went to a regional hunt and a tag system .
 Used to be you could just purchase a tag and  hunt any where in the state . Basically if you didn’t find elk in one area you went somewhere else .

 Now you must chose a region to hunt in  and chose as  tag , Either A tag or B tag .
 This system  allows you to  hunt cow and spike specific in  during a given time OR  you chose to hunt  branch  horned bull during a different time frame, you cant do both .
  While the state does allow you to  change you tag to a different region , its not an easy thing to do and you can only change it 1 time .

 So basicly if you want to hunt another region  then you have to go to  your regional office , pay a fee and convert your tag .  Its not a simple mater of going to a vendor and changing things over , so most simply don’t  change .
  What this does  is  pill large amounts of hunters into areas that  seem to hold a greater chance of success . This results in  an abnormal harvest for those areas  which in turn results in  the state reducing opportunity in those areas the following year

Add all this to predator numbers rising  “as was also mentioned in a post above “ 
 Wolf numbers here are exploding,  mountain lions  numbers also are also showing an increase  and sightings are being reported even down in the larger cities like Boise.
 Some areas are even showing an increase in bear populations . All this added to   large hunter numbers  creates a very  difficult management issue .
 That simply is not flattering and thus does not get printed in magazines 

  Also remember that when folks say that the state relies  on hunter numbers to   pay for the management of game in this state , that’s try .
 However   remember that when someone says ; im not buying a tag  or hunting in a muzzleloader season  if you don’t let my weapon in !. this doesn’t really effect  things all that much . Especially concerning muzzleloader or muzzleloading areas .
1) because the  muzzleloader or muzzleloading  numbers are relatively small compared to  the  over all population
2) because those folks are still going to hunt so they still have to purchase a tag and license  to hunt , despite not purchasing a muzzleloader stamp .
3) add that to  the fact that  a person doesn’t need a muzzleloader stamp anyway  unless they are hunting in an area  or season designated as a traditional muzzleloader or general muzzleloading  hunt .

 it’s a complicated issue  that   a very large book could be written on .
LMAO much large then this novel I seem to have made in this thread LOL

[NONYA]

Sounds like you are just hunting an over hunted area,243 does is no shortage of deer.Why do you see the modern inline as a threat,just because the inline hunter MAY be more successful?Because his range is a bit longer,because he can shoot after his gun gets rained on?I dont get it,it would be like the guy out there hunting with a 30-30 complaining that I am allowed to use a 300 wm do to its superior ballistics,the 30-30 was developed WAY before the 300 and is therefore "traditional" in the centerfire world,it makes no sense!

[wsmitty01]

Shot 2 large bull elk in New Mexico...Elk #1 about 350 yards with custom Ruger#1 8mm Rem Mag,,,elk took about 10 steps feel over dead (low shoulder shot)  Elk #2 about 75 yards with Sante Fe Hawkins .530 PRB....elk took 1 step fell over dead (also lower shoulder shot). Yea PRBs don't work!!!