Author Topic: .243 reloading Quirks ? bad Fl die ? (Read 2320 times)

~Ace~ · « **on:** July 06, 2007, 01:29:38 PM »

I got a .243 barrel a couple weeks ago, and got some brass on E-bay, 2 separate lots from 2 dif sellers. All were polished / Re-sized when I got them. All fit the chamber well. I loaded 20 from each lot and went to shooting, it did well. then I Re-sized and reloaded again, but accuracy had went down hill. Hmmm....... I started to fl resize again today and decided to check a few in the chamber, there sticking out a bit, so I re checked some I had not messed with yet and they are flush to a bit below. Evem Slamming the reciever shut there is a tiny but visable gap when held up to a light, it's Not there when the ones that fit are in it.

So.. After being shot in the Handi, FL resizing with a bought as New Lee die, they were to long. Any ideas ? Buy another die to rule it out ? Thanks in advance for any help, ~Ace~

trotterlg · « **Reply #1 on:** July 06, 2007, 01:37:02 PM »

When you size the brass you need to make sure the FL die touches the shell holder. Touching the shell holder with no brass in the die doesn't cut it, it has to touch while under the load of sizing. My bet is this is the problem. Could also be that the expander button is pulling the sholder forward if you have not lubed the inside of the neck, this would be a seven to one long shot however. Larry

~Ace~ · « **Reply #2 on:** July 06, 2007, 01:42:38 PM »

It is not coming far enough to touch the shell holder to the die when fl sizing, and I'm not sure I could force it to, it's about 1/16 off.

trotterlg · « **Reply #3 on:** July 06, 2007, 01:45:10 PM »

If the FL die does not touch the shell holder then the case will be too long. Let me guess, one of the cast "C" type lee presses? Larry

~Ace~ · « **Reply #4 on:** July 06, 2007, 01:51:25 PM »

It's a Lee "O" type Press, it's done good on .270 and 06 brass, but these seem to stop it. I will see what happens when i MAKE it touch

~Ace~

quickdtoo · « **Reply #5 on:** July 06, 2007, 01:56:59 PM »

The aluminum presses will flex, the cast iron Lee presses won't. Keep turning the die into the press a little at a time until you get the brass flush with the chamber mouth.

I've even had to take a little off a shell holder to get the shoulder pushed back enough on the 300WSM.

Tim

cwlongshot · « **Reply #6 on:** July 06, 2007, 02:02:01 PM »

Let me back up a bit here....

You mention a slight gap. A gap where? If its between the receiver and the barrel you have a head space issue with that gun. Your cases are "growing" to fill it. Your problem is with the gun.

Also making the die hit the shell holder, isn't the proper way to be sure you are FL resizing. You an be pretty sure you ARE FL resizing, but you most likely are also working your brass WAY too much. Each time you do this you are moving the shoulder of the case back. When you fire it you move it back forward. Understand?

There are a couple ways to do this correctly and not over work your brass.
1) You need to only size enough to kiss the shoulder, this will still result is a FL re-size. I like to smoke the brass with a candle and re-size in small increments until you see the shoulder of the case is making firm contact inside the die. Lock the adj ring down and your set for that chamber.

2) mic the base of the case just ahead of the rim and re-size again in increments until the brass is back with in spec. I prefer the first method as brass is very elastic and resizing with a mic can be a bit daunting.
Good luck and post up what you meant about that space.

CW

quickdtoo · « **Reply #7 on:** July 06, 2007, 02:09:56 PM »

If the brass is too long to the shoulder and not going completely into the chamber, there will be a gap between frame and barrel since it can't lock up completely. Ideally, on an empty chamber, there should be no gap at all at the frame and barrel if it's fitted properly. As CW said, if there's a gap there without a round in the chamber, you have an excess headspace issue to deal with.

Tim

~Ace~ · « **Reply #8 on:** July 06, 2007, 02:21:47 PM »

NO Gap. Great fit Empty or with factory ammo.... Slight gap with the Re sized ammo, caused by the case. ~Ace~

trotterlg · « **Reply #9 on:** July 06, 2007, 02:31:25 PM »

My take on the lee aluminum press is that the design does not allow for the handel to go "over center", this makes it difficult to use, I broke one sizing some 7.62X54 Russian. I bought a Herters, they are built like a tank, only problem with them is that they use a different shell holder, there are adaptors and I used the broken Lee pres to make one that fit the Herters. Too bad http://cgi.ebay.com/Herters-Super-3-Reloading-Press_W0QQitemZ220126850872QQihZ012QQcategoryZ71120QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem one is missing the priming arm. Larry

cwlongshot · « **Reply #10 on:** July 06, 2007, 02:32:42 PM »

Quote from: ~Ace~ on July 06, 2007, 02:21:47 PM

NO Gap. Great fit Empty or with factory ammo.... Slight gap with the Re sized ammo, caused by the case. ~Ace~

Based on this, I believe the problem is your gun. If the head space was not an issue the too long case would NOT ALLOW the chamber to close. Your gun has "play' in the hinge pin allowing the barrel to move forward with the too long case.

Think about it, could a bolt gun (In good cond,) allow a too long cartridge to chamber? Of coarse not!

I would have a gunsmith or H&R have a look at your gun before you shoot it again.

Sorry for the bad news, but thats what I "see" from here.

CW

quickdtoo · « **Reply #11 on:** July 06, 2007, 02:45:14 PM »

If you shoot too hot of loads, it will cause frame flex and you'll end up with brass that's too long in the shoulder, after the shot, there will be about a .003" gap tween barrel and frame right at the top, and pressing the barrel release will be much harder than normal. I've experienced this issue with the 300WSM.

Tim

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #12 on:** July 06, 2007, 02:53:36 PM »

Ace

Let me see if i got this right , 1) Got sized brass from E-bay , loaded and fired , 2) FL sized , loaded and fired , 3) FL sized again ?

Have you checked your case OL , it may just be a case of your Brass being too long and it being time to trim . I do not see it being a die problem as you have already used them once and they fit fine .

Do you still have any of the cases that you fired and not re-sized , see how they fit the chamber now that they are fire-formed to fit .

Just some ideas .

stimpy

~Ace~ · « **Reply #13 on:** July 06, 2007, 03:05:16 PM »

I got the shell holder to touch the die, but there still Slightly to long, I can SLAM it closed and it works.

I have only worked up to Mid range loads with IMR4895 pushing 75 grain V-Max and the problem brass include ones at Starting loads.

The Brass doing it are FC's, I am going to load some RP's that have not been fired in the gun and see what happens in the morning.

Case length is fine on them, and I marked the neck with a sharpie before I sized it and the sharpie mark was wider and distorted, so the neck is making contact in the die.

stimpy, I believe that I did not pay close enough attention the Second time I loaded, and they were long, causing the poor accuracy after the first time around it did very well. I used the Lee case trimmer gimmick and verified length on the first couple with calipers.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #14 on:** July 06, 2007, 03:14:12 PM »

Too light a load can cause similar (Not exact) conditions as your having. But generally the case looks awful (Smoked looking) so you know something else is happening as well. This is caused by not enough pressure to "seal" the case in the chamber causing gasses to leak back along the sides of the case. This can also show as high primers. I don't think this is whats happening to yours though.

Stimpy is also right a too long case will not allow complete insertion into the chamber as well.

But back to my last comment. If the gun is closing on a fired case and showing a visible gap where there was none with out the case...there is a head space problem. NO DOUBT, now weather there is an allowable space or not I am not sure, but if it where mine, having a visible space is bothersome to me.

CW

~Ace~ · « **Reply #15 on:** July 06, 2007, 03:25:39 PM »

I am Not Shooting it with a Gap, the gap is at the top do to being closed on to long of a case, the Catch just barlely catches it.

There was a small amount of "Blow By" soot on the neck with the lightest loads, and it went away as I moved up.

I don't believe it is a Pressure problem, high or low... it's not a case length problem.

My guesses are either the chamber is long allowing the case to stretch, or my die is not pushing the neck back far enough.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #16 on:** July 06, 2007, 03:33:00 PM »

OK, got ya.

But how is the case growing?

Its happening in the chamber as/after you fire a case that fit properly right? Then I offer the problem lies in the guns chamber, not in your dies. Because the problem existed before the brass ever touched the die. Right?

As you fire the cartridge, the barrel moves froward allowing the malleable brass to fill the gap left. Resulting in a too long for chamber, empty case.

This is what I see, sorry if I am being a pain, by pushing my point. I hope I am wrong. I just would hate to see someone get hurt or further ruin a good gun.

CW

quickdtoo · « **Reply #17 on:** July 06, 2007, 03:33:59 PM »

Quote from: ~Ace~ on July 06, 2007, 03:25:39 PM

... or my die is not pushing the neck back far enough.

Or, as Larry mentioned, the expander ball is pulling the neck out a bit and changing the shoulder position, do you lube the inside of the case necks?

Tim

~Ace~ · « **Reply #18 on:** July 06, 2007, 03:38:15 PM »

I have been pretty Anal about the Lubing... Lee case lube with a Q-tip on the inside and out, all but the Neck and head. There is no greater resistance then normal with pulling the lever back down.

dw06 · « **Reply #19 on:** July 06, 2007, 03:45:44 PM »

Quote from: ~Ace~ on July 06, 2007, 01:29:38 PM

II started to fl resize again today and decided to check a few in the chamber, there sticking out a bit, so I re checked some I had not messed with yet and they are flush to a bit below.

Had same thing happen with my 223,bought barrel and new dies after the 2nd FL resizing did same as your'e 243.I took a couple of the cases and rifle to loading bench and turned die down 1/16 of a turn resized cases and tried them till they were flush with chamber and closed easy.Locked die down and never had anymore trouble.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #20 on:** July 06, 2007, 06:03:48 PM »

Let me ask something...because of a very similar incident yesterday with my 243...Are you using Remington brass ? I bought 2 full bags from Cabela's last month to work up loads for my boys rifles..Then...Digger sent me 25 Lapua cases to try out..and I loaded these first without incident with Hornady Match Grade dies...Got out the Remington..weighed and inspected them..de-burred the flash holes..chamfered the case mouths and proceeded to re-weighed & sorted..and lubed the necks inside then proceeded to load..I got 5 crushed cases right off the bat with them..I measured the cases..and all were to long to the datum point...way too long...Now...you would think brand new brass wouldn't be this far out but they were...all 100 of them....Recently.....I have found just about every bit of Remington's brass lately to be this way...Not the factory loaded ammo...but just their bulk brass...I bought a box of the Nosler custom brass..and it all is already prepped and ready to load...3 out of 50 were 2 grains over..and an additional 12 was 3-5 tenths out of the rest..35 were dead on as to weight length...These loaded perfectly without incident..

One thing to check is the case dimensions of your brass.....then try some different brass...like I did..Lee...while their products aren't expensive...are generally well within any tolerances needed...If it isn't the brass...I would suggest you take the die completely apart and see if you have a build up of lubricant inside it..this can cause the die to wedge the brass and not allow it to size completely...I always degrease mine completely before usage..Also..completely clean your chamber to remove all carbon build up in the leade and completely clean the ejector/extractor area..It is possible you have a burr or something keeping it from allowing it to close completely too...One last thing...I switched over to Honady 1 shot when it first came out...and have never even thought about going back to the other kinds of lubricant..I really like the way it works and hardly no build up on my dies or brass...

Mac

~Ace~ · « **Reply #21 on:** July 06, 2007, 06:28:17 PM »

These are Federal brass, I'm going to load some Remington and some Frontier ? in the morning and see if it happens again, I took the die apart right off the bat, it was clean.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #22 on:** July 06, 2007, 08:36:03 PM »

Don't forget to check the rifle too...Frontier is Hornady...and they make some good brass too...Also...take a bore light to your chamber and actually look in it good...I once had a 25-06 barrel that was bad...It had a large gouge in the chamber that gave me fits when loading for it...

Mac

~Ace~ · « **Reply #23 on:** July 07, 2007, 08:39:47 AM »

Loaded 9 Frontier brass with 39.5 grains of IMR4895 and 75 grain V-Max, it shot all over the place, about 4" groups... and the brass would not go back in the chamber it was fired from (7 of 9) I Re-Sized and could not quite push them back far enough, if I close the action with Normal force, i get a gap, if I SLAM it, it will close tight. ~Ace~

quickdtoo · « **Reply #24 on:** July 07, 2007, 09:04:18 AM »

Ace, is the .243 barrel on a frame that was purchased new as a rifle? What I'm getting at is it possible the frame is an SB1? It wouldn't be the first time someone got a shotgun frame instead of a rifle frame. Are you shooting it on the 223 frame?

It could also be a defective latch(catch in H&R speak), there have been several repairs done by H&R that showed "reharden catch" on the invoice.

thx,

Tim

~Ace~ · « **Reply #25 on:** July 07, 2007, 09:26:08 AM »

SB2 frame that came with a .270 (matching #'s inscrbed in Barrel ) It shoots Well with the .270, and very well with a .223 I bought on here.

The .223 I fitted using jb Stick, it did not need much

The .243 I bought from ken2222 on here a couple weeks ago, 22" Bull Bbl. It snapped in with no gap and feels good, zero movement without the forearm in. The barrel was described as possibly unfired, and looked the part.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #26 on:** July 07, 2007, 10:52:33 AM »

If everything else is looking good, I'd be inclined to say your load is too hot, 39gr IMR4895 is the max load for the 75gr Speer in the Lyman 48th, Hodgdon shows 37.5-41gr for the 75gr Hornady SP. Hornady doesn't show IMR4895 used with the 75gr Vmax in the 6th edition. If your load is flush with the chamber face before the shot and causes a slight gap which is visible when held up to light after the shot before opening the action and the fired brass can't be put back in the chamber all the way, it's too hot, been there with the 300WSM, that's exactly what it did.

Tim

~Ace~ · « **Reply #27 on:** July 07, 2007, 11:47:17 AM »

I worked up from starting load originally, tho I did not keep the brass seperate, but all displayed being to big. I will try some fresh brass and a starting load, or maybe try Varget.

~Ace~ · « **Reply #28 on:** July 08, 2007, 07:02:29 AM »

$:-\$ Same with starting loads

~Ace~ · « **Reply #29 on:** July 08, 2007, 12:13:49 PM »

I Smoked the latch, Perfect... Loaded more and shot 5 groups of 3, None under 4" No Pop opens, No gap between barrel and reciever after shots, and none of the brass will resize to fit flush after, I'm gonna assume it's just a wacked out Barrel. I looked at the chamber with a bore light, and see no abnormalities, it now has 75 rounds through it. It will make a nice pry bar

) ~Ace~