45 ACP FOR HUNTING

[northern hunter]

Hey guys could you use the 45 ACP WITH A 230 xtp bullet for deer if you kept it under 50 yards ?Or is there a better load for the 45,under 50 yards?

thanks for the help.
Frank

[slugman]

Yes...if you can hit your mark at 50yards. Personally I would keep it 25 or under.

Edited to add.....I think a 230grain Federal HST+P Would be a better choice unless it is a huge deer.

[Lloyd Smale]

aint the best but it will do the job. If it were me id load 200 grain cast swcs and load them to about 900 fps.

[Mikey]

Might get the job done but not the best choice of cartridge or bullet.  The 45 acp should penetrate t&t a whitetails chest at that distance but if one of those brand name slugs hits the shoulder or angles onto the rib cage it may not penetrate they way it is advertised. 

Lloyd would use a 200 gn cast swc at about 900'/sec.  I would up the ante with a 230 gn swc, either cast if available or fmj-swc, at about the same velocity, but I wouldn't go looking for whitetail with that cartridge/load, I would use it though if the shot were close enough and presently clearly.  Mikey.

[Larry Gibson]

Been there, done that with the .45 ACP. No need for the 230 XTP though it should be OK. My experience is with the old Cooper recommended load of a 190-205 gr SWC cast over 7.5 gr of Unique. Rund just at 1000 fps or so out of a 5" barrel M1911 and gives all the penetration needed for deer.  Real good performer was the old Speer FAT (Flying Ash Tray) 200 gr bullet but, alas, they don't make them anymore. The 200 gr Gold Dot should perform well.  BTW; even with a good well placed shot do not expect the deer to be knocked off it's feet ala like in the movies.

Larry Gibson

[Graybeard]

I'm not a fan of the .45acp for any use even against humans. I'm sure part of my disdain for this round is that cooper was such a fan of it and I absolutely could not stand him or his writings. The first thing I did when I got the rag he wrote for was to tear out the last page with his article and toss it in the trash can so I'd not have to see it when reading. Yeah I really did dislike him that much. Without a doubt my feelings for him have tainted my feelings for his favorite round.

But many many years ago I did own and use some such chambered guns and met only with disappointment in their use. Most notable was a day we were attempting to dispatch some feral dogs that folks had dropped off and they were taking over the area. I used it on several and not one single one was killed even remotely cleanly. In fact all ran off and I cannot be sure any of them died. Since that day I've never again fired it at an animal of any sort and refuse to do so. I just plain don't trust it.

No I can't recall the load or bullet used in those days for that sorry example of killing power but the bullets were properly placed and I'm sure the dogs did eventually die but not close at hand. We really weren't in a position to hang around and track them at the time. But my guess is they were cast of 200 grains or more and likely semiwadcutters as I used a lot of them in target shooting and so it's likely that is what it was. But it also could have been factory FMJ as I also shot a fair bit of that in those days also in punching paper.

The two things that performance on the feral dogs and my dislike for cooper together have caused me to come to hate and distrust the .45acp. I've not owned a gun so chambered in likely over 30 years.

[MarkH]

I don't know, Graybeard, I had the same experience on feral dogs with a 44 Special loaded with Keiths and even a 454 loaded with a 300 gr Hawk.  Ditto with coyotes.  It sure kills them, but they don't act like it for a while.  I recall trying to get one feral dog "down" before he hit the brush, finally got him behind the ear.

But heck, I maintain that 90% of handgunning is psychological.  I would not want to go afield with a caliber that I did not think hung the moon, whether I was right or not

[Lloyd Smale]

dont know Bill but theres truck loads of dead people that would probably argue that point with you. Most weighted more then your average deer and a good portion weighted twice as much. Lots of GIs swore by them and that was using just 230 ball. I feel pretty well armed with one tucked in my belt.

I'm not a fan of the .45acp for any use even against humans. I'm sure part of my disdain for this round is that cooper was such a fan of it and I absolutely could not stand him or his writings. The first thing I did when I got the rag he wrote for was to tear out the last page with his article and toss it in the trash can so I'd not have to see it when reading. Yeah I really did dislike him that much. Without a doubt my feelings for him have tainted my feelings for his favorite round.

But many many years ago I did own and use some such chambered guns and met only with disappointment in their use. Most notable was a day we were attempting to dispatch some feral dogs that folks had dropped off and they were taking over the area. I used it on several and not one single one was killed even remotely cleanly. In fact all ran off and I cannot be sure any of them died. Since that day I've never again fired it at an animal of any sort and refuse to do so. I just plain don't trust it.

No I can't recall the load or bullet used in those days for that sorry example of killing power but the bullets were properly placed and I'm sure the dogs did eventually die but not close at hand. We really weren't in a position to hang around and track them at the time. But my guess is they were cast of 200 grains or more and likely semiwadcutters as I used a lot of them in target shooting and so it's likely that is what it was. But it also could have been factory FMJ as I also shot a fair bit of that in those days also in punching paper.

The two things that performance on the feral dogs and my dislike for cooper together have caused me to come to hate and distrust the .45acp. I've not owned a gun so chambered in likely over 30 years.

[Ken ONeill]

Graybeard: You're a hoot!! Chuckle, chuckle. But you have been missing out on a pretty fair round for some uses for 30 years. Hated Cooper...chuckle, chuckle.

[Redhawk1]

Sure it will work, but keep the distance close.

[ms]

Don't do it we'll be sorry  go out and buy a 44 357 41 or something. But please don't do it

[Redhawk1]

ms, you are correct that there are a lot better choices and myself, I would choose something bigger. But if someone was to want to hunt with a 45ACP and the distance was kept to 25 yards or under the 45ACP would be fine with the proper bullet.

[358jdj]

I am a little confused.  It has been stated numerous times on this site that a 44 mag with 240 swc at 900 fps will penetrate and kill all but the big bears.  Within this thread, it is being stated that a 45acp swc load at 1000 fps won't kill anything.  What gives?  Personally, I carry a 45acp most of the time in my back country adventures.  While I don't choose to carry it while I am specifically hunting, I don't live in fear when I pack it around for close range defense.  It sure carries a lot easier than a big bore revolver.

[Redhawk1]

358jdj, as a primary hunting round, the 45ACP is not the best choice. Will it work, sure it will, at short range.  But for actual hunting, there are a lot of better choices out there. If someone only has a 45ACP, why not use it, but again within it's effective range of 25 yards or less. As far as carry for back up, my 2 1/2 inch 454 Casull is just as easy to carry as my 1911.

[Larry Gibson]

I am a little confused.  It has been stated numerous times on this site that a 44 mag with 240 swc at 900 fps will penetrate and kill all but the big bears.  Within this thread, it is being stated that a 45acp swc load at 1000 fps won't kill anything.  What gives?  Personally, I carry a 45acp most of the time in my back country adventures.  While I don't choose to carry it while I am specifically hunting, I don't live in fear when I pack it around for close range defense.  It sure carries a lot easier than a big bore revolver.

Your confusion is exactly why I stated "BTW; even with a good well placed shot do not expect the deer to be knocked off it's feet ala like in the movies" in my post. Many seem to believe animal are supposed to get knocked off the feet or die instantly and fall down when shot, especial with magnum handgun rounds. It just doesn't happen that way regardless of Hollywood special effects. A deer can go a long ways after receiving a fatal shot, even from a rifle. This is why I gave up on the classic "behind the shoulder" shot years ago. An animal shot there most often is merely lung shot, fatal yes, and can go a very long ways before dying.  I always recommend going for a heart shot (it lays low between the front legs along the inside of the brisket). An animal heart shot will not go as far as when lung shot and normal only go a very short distance.  There is really very little difference between in killing between .41, .44 and .45 cast bullets of SWC configuration in the 900 to 1100 fps range on deer, pigs or elk. Very seldom will the animal drop to the shot. If possible follow up shots should be taken (meat damage is minimal with these rounds). You must be prepared to track the shot animal.  The .45 ACP is as capable of cleanly taking any deer or pig as any other cartridge in the .41 - .45 caliber range with cast bullets or JHPs in the 900-1100 fps range. It must be used within it's limitation (yours too).

Larry Gibson

[ms]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ms, you are correct that there are a lot better choices and myself, I would choose something bigger. But if someone was to want to hunt with a 45ACP and the distance was kept to 25 yards or under the 45ACP would be fine with the proper bullet.  Your right but keep it 20 yards or less I would go mark out 20yards circle from where I would be hunting.

[Redhawk1]

Larry, I think most of us know that deer or most animals will not be knocked off there feet as in the movies. A lot of us have been hunting for many years. I know I have 35 years of field experience myself. But that does not cloud my judgment as to what is a better choice of round to use.
I personally like to take a shoulder shot on all my game. One it breaks them down and 98% of the time, it is a high lung hit as well. So not only do I take out the lungs, I take out it's running gear. That is the reason I like handguns with more power. I like to break bone and get good penetration after going through bone. Also I like a big boom when I shoot.  

[northern hunter]

Thanks guys for all your input,The load that I was looking at was a factory +p load from Hornady with the 230 hp-xtp bullet,its supposed to be going 950 fps.I don't reload for the 45 yet.I only have a 45 right now sold my other hanguns.I will keep my shots under 30 yards,and practice,practice.
Thanks guys again.
Frank
Shoot once and carry a sharp knife.............

[fatercat]

i shot a small deer 20 feet away more than 20 years ago with the 185 hp. maybe 15 ft. broke both sholders and deer ran 40 or so yards. the hp did not open up, it closed up. i still have the bullet from under the hide. if i could post a pic, i surly would.

[Ak.Hiker]

Two factory loads I would look at are the Buffalo Bore 230 grain flat point at 950 and the Double Tap 230 flat point at 1010. Both are loaded with the Hornady 230 grain flat point FMJ bullet.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, I think most of us know that deer or most animals will not be knocked off there feet as in the movies. A lot of us have been hunting for many years. I know I have 35 years of field experience myself. But that does not cloud my judgment as to what is a better choice of round to use.
I personally like to take a shoulder shot on all my game. One it breaks them down and 98% of the time, it is a high lung hit as well. So not only do I take out the lungs, I take out it's running gear. That is the reason I like handguns with more power. I like to break bone and get good penetration after going through bone. Also I like a big boom when I shoot.  

Redhawk1

That's fine, I prefer a .44 magnum myself. But everyone else does not and because I do is not to say the .45 ACP isn't a "right" choice for deer hunting by others.  I have killed deer with the .45 ACP (both auto and revolver), the .41 magnum, the .44 special and the .45 Colt. With cast SWC bullets of 200-250 gr at 900-1100 fps there wasn't a Nichols difference between them as far as how well they killed the deer.  If you don't think there is "confusion" about what reaction a deer (or pig) will have to being shot with a handgun then reread Graybeard's post. It would appear he expected them to drop at the shot since he states "not one single one was killed even remotely cleanly. In fact all ran off and I cannot be sure any of them died.......We really weren't in a position to hang around and track them at the time". I'm not criticizing Graybeard (well maybe I am) but shooting an animal with a handgun and not being in a "position to hang around and track them" tells me he was expecting something other than what he got and what the reality of handgun hunting is.  I'm assuming Graybeard has learned since then. We're all make mistakes and I think admitting one's errors is a good way for others to learn. You'd be surprised at how many "hunters" are buying the mondo magnum handguns and express such as "by god this'll knock 'em off their feet.  Yes Redhawk1 there are indeed many who don't know the truth. Another simple truth is there are many, right here on this board too, that can't handle a magnum handgun. If they can shoot a lessor cartridge then I find that to be ok. They just must understand the limitations. Hell, those with the magnums ought to understand thier limitations also!

Larry Gibson

[Lloyd Smale]

Larry made some good points. Ive shot a few deer and bear and pigs with 44s and 45s and even 41s using 220-255 cast bullet at 9-1000 fps and havent lost one yet. One 6 point buck facing toward me took a 255 45 at 900 in the chest at 40 yards and it came out the back ham. Now the silly thing with this argument is that if you look at a 200-230 swc cast properly out of a 45acp at 900 fps and say it wont kill a deer I have to ask you what youd think of a 41 mag shooting a 230 cast at 900 fps would do. Sure your giving up a little penentrations because of less sectional density and probably arent going to be able to expect it to penetrated from the hind end of a deer into the vitals but you shouldnt be taking that shot anyway. Id have to say we dont have deer bionic enough up here to take a 200 at 900 in the chest and stop a bullet before it reaches the vitals. I guess theres something majic about putting magnum on a 41 case or a 357 case. In the case of the 357 mag, id just as soon have an acp with a 200 at 900 fps then any load in a 357 out of a handgun. Hate to burst bubbles here but ive had deer run from hits out of a 500 linebaugh. They died but they ran first. IVe seen buffalo hit with 500s that kept eating! A handgun hit deer has to bleed to death no matter what you hit it with. IVe shot a few deer with handguns and if i looked back in memory there is very little differnce in the reaction to a bullet hit on a deer with a handgun no matter what the cailber is. One reaction that is constant though is that they die if hit in the right place. Do some penetration testing of your own and then come back and tell me that a 45acp is going to bounce off a deer!! I do like a little more bone breaking power for bear and pigs but id still not feel undergunned if hunting with an acp properly loaded in a situation where i could pick my shots. If your not skillfull enough with a handgun to put your bullet where it belongs at the range your hunting you dont need a bigger handgun you need a scoped rifle! Putting magnum on the case head does not make a gun into some majical kiling machine. You are the killing machine. What has to be kept in mind here is bullet selection. I wouldnt go into the field with a 44 mag using round nosed ammo and surely wouldnt with an acp. I dont have alot of faith in hp bullets either as ive seen them fail on pigs and bear but have to admitt ive never seen one fail on deer. I aslo wouldnt use a swaged lead bullet. Id try to find a good swc or round flat bullet that was at least 9 bhn, push it to 900 fps and id bet a dime to a dollar it would kill any deer it hit inside of 50 yards. Lots of guys preaching against it here. Where are you getting your opinion from. Id surely like to here storys of loads like that bouncing off of deer. To many guys get there knowlege from this box or some bs article wrote in some stupid rag like guns and ammo  and not from actuall feild experience. Sorry guys but the same people will preach to you that a 243 or 3030 isnt enough for deer too. Maybe in a 1000 years deer will evolve into the giant dangerous bullet proff animals that some people protray them as but it aint happening in my lifetime.

[Graybeard]

Well Larry admittedly it was a VERY Lot of years ago and at that time due to the shortage of deer in my part of Alabama I'd never even SEEN one in the woods much less shot one so I knew not the reaction of a deer at all. I had shot a lot of dogs and cats and also KNEW their normal reaction to being shot with the guns I used at that time.

The first shot on the one dog that required us to depart hastily was to the head and it was a hit and "appeared" to have been in an area that "should" have been a brain shot. Clearly it didn't get to the brain as I know well now what a CNS hit does and that one did not. It was dogs NOT deer being shot. That dog let out the loudest yelping you've ever heard and headed in the direction of the nearest house causing us to question whether that one was really one of the many strays being thrown out or not.

To my knowledge at that long ago time there was no law here against what we were doing but certainly today there is. Still with the dog doing what it did we felt departure the best course of action at that time. After that initial shot which did in fact drop it to the ground momentarily it was hit at least 2-3 more times in the body. We saw it continue running for perhaps as much as 200 yards before it disappeared from sight still barking and howling like crazy.

No deer I've shot as well with ANYTHING since has managed to get that far. It shook my confidence in the .45 acp to a point that has never recovered. Most previous kills had been made with 7x57, .30-06, 12 gauge and .22WMR as I recall. I don't recall any of those ever going more than a few feet and most collapsed to the shot so yeah in those days at that time I really did expect it to do the same and had that first shot to the head in the proper area for a brain shot penetrated even today I feel certain it would have done the same.

Back then I was still a teenager and had no big game kills only small game and feral pets to my credit. In that area where my cousin lived city folks came to drop off their no longer wanted pets in huge numbers. Many had mange and many were really mean and had no qualms about attacking folks walking the area and thus we took it upon ourselves to rid the area of them. Besides as teens it was the closest thing to "big game" hunting available in those long ago years.

My low opinion of the acp is colored both by that long ago incident and my admitted total dislike to the point of hate for cooper who was its champion. Had it not been for him and my feelings toward him and his writings who knows I might have given it more of a chance. My cousin never lost his love of it and even today owns several of them and likely shoots it more than any other centerfire. But then he kinda thinks cooper could walk on water too I think.

[Redhawk1]

Lloyd, I put 25 yards because of most of the open sights on the 1911. Most of the people I see shooting a 1911 do well out to 25 yards, but after that there shooting ability with the 1911 goes down hill. Not that the bullet will not kill a deer at that range, but the shooting ability is what I was referring to.  Now there are some that are great shots with there 1911 and a 50 yard shot is very doable.

[WyoXJ]

I was wondering, is the 45acp a legal hunting round for Deer where you are at?.  Here I am fairly certain that the .41mag is the minimum legal cartridge for big game but I could be wrong.

[ccoker]

Lloyd, I put 25 yards because of most of the open sights on the 1911. Most of the people I see shooting a 1911 do well out to 25 yards, but after that there shooting ability with the 1911 goes down hill. Not that the bullet will not kill a deer at that range, but the shooting ability is what I was referring to.  Now there are some that are great shots with there 1911 and a 50 yard shot is very doable.

I would agree with that..
I have shot a few deer with my 1911 using 230g +p (hst and gold dots) but all were more "targets of oppurtunity" when I had deer within 25 yards of the blind I was in.. all were perfect chest shots at 25 yards or less and all were clean pass throughs and all died, all ran 20-40 yards before collapsing

Last year I decided I wanted to really try handgun hunting and so I when to the range to see how accurate I could really be with my 1911
at 25 yards I could easily do a 2-3" group
at 50 yards, that opened up a lot and I have good sights, an adjustable rear and dawson thin FO front

I bought a 41 mag with a 7.5" barrel and that longer sight radius really helped and the first weekend out I killed a doe at about 50 yards with 240g Winchester Platinum tip, clean pass through both shoulders, deer ran about 40 yards and collapsed

I tried a few red dots on it and decided I wanted to keep it open sights and actually sold it a few weeks ago and bought a 44mag, a SBH
Not because the 41 mag was enough, it clearly was, I don't have the time to reload and got tired of the ammo hassle with the 41 mag

With the 44 I can get 240 SP by Magtech from 2 local sources cheap enough to practice with or Winchster 240g SP for just a bit more from any Walmart in Texas...

I just got a Glock 20 in 10mm mainly for a "woods" gun as I camp and mtn bike in Colorado and New Mexico
I am sure the DT 200g hardcast at 1300FPS will cleanly take a deer or hog, the issue of course would be how accurate I am with it past 25 yards...

[Lloyd Smale]

both my gold cup and my gold match kimber will shoot loads they like into 2 inch at 50 yards off a bench. I actually shoot them off hand better then a single action or double action handgun at that range. Ive actually shot some startling good groups at a 100 yards with a 1911 and the steal plates 12x12 steel plates at a 100 yards take a terrible beating off hand.

[Larry Gibson]

Graybeard

We all must be forgiven our transgressions of youth, you know I'd be lying if I said I'd never done anything like that!  Many dislike Kieth and the .44 for the same reasons as many dislike the .270 because of O'Conner. Because we dislike someone who writes of those cartridges does not detract from the capability of the cartridge. Lloyd makes some very good and valid points/comparisons.

Redhawk1

Your 25 yards is probably pretty close for the older well used surplus M1911s but as pointed out mny of the newer of that breed are quite accurate well past 25 yards.

Guess it all really boils down to what is the maximum distance a handgunner can reliably hit the heart/lung area of the game animal. The .45 ACP is not legal for deer in some states but is legal in others.  If a handgunner chooses to hunt with it he has the responsibility to do so within his limitations with that handgun. That's about it.

Larry Gibson

[NONYA]

I watched a guy sho0t a yearling MD doe at about 20-30 yards with a 45 acp,2 shots,one in the boiler room,1 in the front shoulder,it ran off and he had to finish it off with my rifle,it is a very poor choice for deer hunting,it will kill em but its not gonna be a clean.

[valian]

The 45acp is fine for deer. I load a 230 cast bullet to around 1000fps using around 11 gr of AA7. That load is max and directly from the AA manual. i use an 18lb recoil spring and a shock buff with that load just to be sure no harm will come to the gun.

Last year I killed a nice doe with a 45LC shot out of an old army with a centerfire conversion cylinder. I used a 25ogr Speer GD bullet loaded to about 900fps. Shot her at about 25 yds quartering away. The bullet entered through the ribs on the left side, grazed the top of the heart, through the right lower lung broke the far side femur and stopped in the skin on the far side. The load i use in the 45ACP will perform similarly.

valian