Author Topic: Can't figure it out (Read 1065 times)

tony212 · « **on:** July 08, 2007, 07:37:59 AM »

Ok, I can't figure out what is happening here. I can't shoot a good three shot group to save my soul. I'm shooting three different rifles in three different calibers with reloads and factory stuff and I have the same problem with all three. Every time I shoot a three shot group I get two very close, inch or less, and the third one flies off opening my groups to three or four inches. I'm shooting 100 yards at a five inch bull. I hit the bull all three times but like I said one always opens the group way up. Any suggestions? I have a good steady rest, a .223 H&R handi rifle shooting Winchester 55 grain solids, a Winchester model 70 in .300 Win Mag shooting 150 grain accubonds over 72 grains of IMR 4350, and a Browning BAR in .30-06 shooting 165 Remington core locts over 56.5 grains of IMR 4350.
The worst part is 4 years ago I was shooting clover leaves at 200 yards with the .300. Now I get two good ones and one flier every time. Its pretty frustrating. Makes me want to give up rifles and stick to shotguns.
Oh well
Tony212

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #1 on:** July 08, 2007, 08:23:43 AM »

Tony

Is it always the 3rd round that is the flier ? if so it may be a case of the barrel heating up .

How much time between shots ? Also how long has it been sence you gave the bore a good copper removal , you may be getting some copper fouling .

stimpy

tony212 · « **Reply #2 on:** July 08, 2007, 10:28:09 AM »

Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. I'll have to get some copper remover and give the bore a good scrubbing. Just seems kind of funny that all three rifles are doing the same thing. And the .223 handi is only a couple of months old. Maybe my old eyes just aren't what they used to be.
Tony212

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #3 on:** July 08, 2007, 10:34:20 AM »

Tony

Ya thats kinda odd that all 3 are doing that , i know that when i first got my Handi 223 it would foul bad after just a few rounds till i got everything smoothed out , it would shoot good and all of a sudden go to pot , took about 300 rounds to come around and shoot consistently every time .

stimpy

Catfish · « **Reply #4 on:** July 08, 2007, 02:00:57 PM »

I don`t think it`s a heating problem with only 3 shots, especially with the .223. My first guess is that it`s a sighting problem. With alot of scopes, especially the cheap ones, you can change your point of impact quite alot by not having your eye in exactly the same spot behind the scope. I would recommend that you go to 5 shot groups and see what happens with the next 2 shots.

beemanbeme · « **Reply #5 on:** July 08, 2007, 02:03:47 PM »

Get rid of the 5" bull. Use the smallest bull you can see with whatever sighting system you're using. With a scope I use a 1" bull (it's okay if the cross hairs cover it) and with peep sights, I use a 2' bull. With my target rifles, I'll aim at the bullet hole. And I'm 69.
It takes a lot of practice to get everything to line up the same every time.

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #6 on:** July 08, 2007, 02:42:30 PM »

Catfish

I was thinking more of a bad copper problem heating up and causing the bullet to drag more as opposed to the barrel heating and warping to change the point of impact . just an idea .

stimpy

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #7 on:** July 09, 2007, 12:02:56 AM »

If its a handy rifle id about bet your problem is your trigger pull. It takes alot of consentration to pull a heavy trigger and by the time your on your third shot your probably getting impatient and not doing your part. Get someone to work that trigger down to 2 or 3 pounds and id bet your trouble goes away. Ive got rifles ive shot at the range over 200 rounds in one day that still shoot moa so id doubt if its copper fouling. If its anything else id guess that its barrel heat. Theres about no such thing as bedding on a handy rifle.

Glanceblamm · « **Reply #8 on:** July 09, 2007, 02:32:12 AM »

Good replys!
For starters, I would go with what beemanbeme said and get rid of the 5" bull since yours is happening with not one, but three diff rifles.
I like contrast and my homemade 1" white square inside of a 2" black square works well for me.

tony212 · « **Reply #9 on:** July 21, 2007, 10:08:31 AM »

After several trips to the range with the .223 I'm fairly certain the problem was me. I switched to a 1" bull, have really been concentrating on the trigger, and my groups have become very respectable. Last year I was mostly shooting the .300 win mag and I think I have developed an awful flinch. Since I now have the .223 under control I think I'll move up to the .30-06. Thanks for all the advice.

Tony 212

stalker1 · « **Reply #10 on:** July 26, 2007, 07:44:34 AM »

Tony212,

Good observation. With 3 different guns/calibers doing the same thing, the thought in my mind was flinch, trigger pull and concentration. Going to the smaller bull, a person has a tendency to concentrate on that small spot more than a larger one.

Selmer · « **Reply #11 on:** August 03, 2007, 04:28:30 AM »

Don't take offense at this, but the first thing that came to mind was flinch. To determine if this is the case, take a friend with you to the range. Now, for the entire range session, you don't get to load the rifle yourself, your friend does. Make sure you have either cases with just live primers or fired cases for your friend to mix into the groups with the live loaded cartridges. If you are flinching, this process will show it, especially the cases with live primers. This is how I was taught consistency from a bench and field positions, it works very, very well.
Selmer

huntswithdogs · « **Reply #12 on:** August 03, 2007, 07:59:59 AM »

Tony,
Maybe we oughta start up a chapter of "Flinchers Anonymous". I admit I one. Mine started after playing with a Sluggun and a 300WM that I shot about every weekend. After getting mine bell rung on more than one occassion,I started antipating the gun going off and would jerk the trigger after the first 2 or 3 shots. I had to start all over again. Extended sessions with a 22 rifle were what I used to get me back into the SQUEEEEEZE mode.

HWD

tony212 · « **Reply #13 on:** August 04, 2007, 08:16:27 AM »

Selmer · « **Reply #14 on:** August 05, 2007, 09:39:36 AM »

I find this subject of recoil a little ironic. I'm a guy that hates getting busted in the shoulder with a rifle that's more than is necessary. A stout .30-06 is as much as I care for and I'm in love with my 6ppc because of the LACK of recoil. I find it strange that I don't mind the recoil all that much in a handgun, I must be strange. I use a 6 screw base with 3 rings, I believe it's a Redfield mount that I bought with the scope attached. I took the scope out, mounted it with blue Loctite, lapped the rings, and haven't touched it since sighting it in. This was my first handgun experience, so I really didn't have anything to compare it to recoil-wise. I have since shot .357 Mags and Max's, as well as .44 Magnums and they all seem like pussycats compared to my .454 Casull, but I don't mind shooting the Casull, I've shot 70+ hard hitting rounds at a session. For some reason my hand was a little sore the next day, it must have been from something else....

Selmer

goodwrench6710 · « **Reply #15 on:** August 05, 2007, 05:04:09 PM »

Those of us that have experienced scope eye tend to fear heavy recoil for a while. I don't mind recoil on a handgun, but a scoped rifle can be alittle scary sometimes. I did get over it.

huntswithdogs · « **Reply #16 on:** August 06, 2007, 10:15:36 AM »

Goodwrench,
I've only been bitten by the scope one time and that was all my fault I crawled the scope on a 270 while in the prone postion shooting at a groundhog. When my eyes quit watering and the stars went away,I had to put the lens back in my glasses and gp to the truck looking like I'd been in a horror movie. I had blood all over my face and shirt. To this day ,this happened 20 years ago mind ya, if you hand me a 270 to shoot, I'm coming up off of it when I pull the trigger.

I've shot some rifles that'll thump ya pretty good and won't flinch, but don't hand me a 270...

Goes to show ya that the 6'' between your ears rules all, huh?

HWD

tony212 · « **Reply #17 on:** August 08, 2007, 02:27:42 PM »

I changed my shooting bench last year and for some reason now I have a hard time getting comfortable. I think thats why I developed the flinch from my .300, i wasn't shouldering it properly.
But, I have also noticed I never feel quite right when I'm using the bench......not sure what exactly changed, angle, height, maybe a shrter chair, but I have a hard time getting into a comfortable shooting position...
Tony212