Hard Cast ?

[Chuck White]

Are straight wheel-weight bullets considered "hard-cast"!

I know they do expand a little, but not as much as pure lead.
I also know that they will penetrate deeper than pure lead.

Thanks;

[Graybeard]

Depends on who you ask I suspect. My definition of hard cast is most anything other than pure lead but when antimony is added is when the lead begins to get HARD. Alloys such as 10 to 1, 20 to 1 and 30 to one are just lead mixed with tin and while some harder than pure lead and thus more or less qualifying as "hard cast" are very hard and most probably would not consider them to be "hard cast" but merely cast.

It's really all semantics as all are harder than lead but when you begin adding antimony it then truly becomes hard cast and with arsenic added you can also heat treat for added SURFACE hardness mostly. Wheel weights or them with a bit of tin added to better fill out the mould is fine for most all uses other than really high velocity and with a gas check even for some pretty serious high velocity but I still like linotype or lino mixed with wheel weights as that is what I've used more than any other and I like the way it works for me.

[Dusty Miller]

Without a BHN number attached to it the term "hard cast" is just pure, out and out baloney.  Its a marketing tool only.

[Lloyd Smale]

what i consider hard cast is anything in an alloy of plain ww and harder or any alloy that will do 10bhn or harder on a tester but thats just an opinion. It comes from the fact that an alloy that hard in a good gun will be able to be pushed to magnum velocitys out of a handgun and have enough stength to bust bone at least on deer and bear sized game.

[Chuck White]

Thanks for your inputs!

I guess I kinda thought HardCast were bullets that would shatter on impact or otherwise penetrate without expansion.

From reading lots of posts here and other forums on the net over the years,  lots of deer have been shot with straight wheelweight lead with no problems.

I would be using .358, 162 grainers in my Marlin 1894C and .429, 240 grainers in my 44 mag SBH & Ruger 77/44 and in my Marlin M-444P.  The only cast I have taken a deer with so far was the .429 sized down to .427, loaded in a TC Black Mag sabot from my Encore 209X50 ML. Bullet went in and out, at about 70 yards.

[ND Sharpshooter]

Hi, Chuck,

The wheel weights I'm now using end up in the 12-14 BHN range when air cooled.  Dropped into a bucket of cold water, they go to 18 BHN or so.  Wheel weights make tough bullets while linotype makes brittle bullets.  WW's seldom shatter while LT tends to do so if bones are hit at higher velocities--like 1800 and up.  I usually add one pound of linotype to three pounds of wheel weights because the linotype helps the castability and mould fill out.  If I don't care to use lino, I turn the heat up on my RCBS Pro-Melt to 850 degrees and allow more time for cooling between fillings.  I should mention that I add linotype only for the cb's for my 308 when I want to run them over 1800 fps and for magnum loads in 357 and 44.  If your barrels are smooth, wheel weights should do nicely even without gas checks.  I've recovered only two cb's from all the deer I've gotten.  A 170 grain 30-30 that went from the third rib to the skin under the right rear ham (it was right beside the tail) at a distance of 50 yards  and a 200 grainer from my Marlin 357 that went through about 18-20 inches of venison and shattered the ball joint of the right shoulder at a bit over 100 yards. 

Bottom line? Try the wheel weights.  If they seem too soft, heat treat then or just drop them in a bucket of water (I use 1 inch squares of carpet underlayment foam about 3 inches thick floating on the water to keep the splashing down and to slow the hot cb's a bit.)  Have had good luck with this for 30+ years now.  Happy casting!

[ratherbefishin]

wheel weights are readily available but where can you even get linotype now?

[Graybeard]

while linotype makes brittle bullets.  WW's seldom shatter while LT tends to do so if bones are hit at higher velocities--like 1800 and up.

That's a widely believed BUT FALSE old wife's tale that really needs to come to an end. I've been using linotype for my bullets for neigh on 30 years now as my best friend was a printer and we got a HUGE stash of the stuff from his sources and for free. I've shot bullets made from it into a lot of different things and the ONLY thing that shattered it was steel plates and guess what? They shatter ALL bullets even pure lead and jacketed. The lead remains on the ground below steel targets looks no different regardless of the type bullet that hits them except with jacketed you'll find some small pieces of copper. With gas checked bullets you'll often find a gas check but not always.

I've picked up linotype bullets that hit only the edge of steel targets that sheared the part that hit off and the part that didn't touch the metal was still intact. People who report that linotype shatters are people with little experience shooting bullets made of it.

[HL]

I have never had a heat treated WW bullet shatter, even when hitting bone.

I've also shot my 44 mag through some 12" Oak Trees, and I figure if it would have shattered, it wouldn't have left such a neat hole in the back side.

IMO, one of the best things about shooting hard cast is that there is less meat loss when you put the bullet through the shoulder area. At least, that's my experience.

Good Shooting,

HL

[Lloyd Smale]

Weve done lots of pretty extensive pentration testing over the years. While not scientific by any means it seems to relate at least somewhat to field experiences. Our test media is either buffalo or cow knuckly bones followed by wet print. If theres no bone we have substituted layers of hardwood boards which seem to act alot like the bone. Only fractured bullets ive ever seen in out testing were water dropped bullets. Especially in the case of swcs with there sharp shoulder they tend to loose there noses. Ive shot straight linotype and even staight monotype into test media as fast as 2000fps without one fracture of a bullet. Now heres the tricky part swcs seem prone to it and the smaller the bullet the more prone to failure they are. Now at least in testing there seems to be a way around this. Adding about 3 percent tin to your ww when you cast seems to make a more ductable bullet with or without water dropping. Bullets with antimony levels higher then tin levels are the ones that usually fail. Now another fly in this ointment. Fracturing isnt the only failure a cast bullet can substain. If an alloy is to soft for the medial it is being shot into whether this be flesh or test media it will rivit or deform. Just a small ammount of deforming will really put the breaks on penetration and will cause cast bullets to do funny things like taking sharp turn inside the media. Also bullet shape has alot to do with good penetration. A good lfn or swc with a flat nose will usually do better then a round nose or a round flat or even a turnacated nosed bullet. If im looking for the ultimate in penetration without deforming. It look at a few things. Bullet weight shape and alloy. Changing alloy obvoiously changes weitght so a compromise is needed. If im shooting under 1500 fps ill usually use an alloy of 5050 ww/lino. If its between 1500-2000 i will usually use straight lineotype. Above those speeds your pushing the cabability of any lead alloy. I havent tested much past those levels but id guess that if i did id get my best luck with something like monotype or sterotype with some added tin to get the tin up closer to the antimony. Reading this you can see that im not a big fan of water dropping bullets. I have a couple problems with it. First you are never going to get consistant hardness as its impossible to have the bullets hitting the water the same temp every time. All cast bullets will deform at least slightly when shot out of a gun. Now if hardness isnt the same each time there going to deform slightly different each time and that will effect accuarcy. Maybe not a close ranges but it will at long distances. The other reason i dont like it is it makes for a brittle bullet. You arent going to see them fail on deer, pigs or bear so if thats all your hunting and can get acceptable accurcy with them go for it. Personaly if i wanted to heat treat bullets id do it in an oven. Your not going to help the brittle problem but you will at least have consistant bullets. I can about guarantee you one thing. If a lineotype bullet failed for you on a game animal. Just about any other bullet alloy would have too. It may have failed in a differnt way but it would have failed. Me ill stick to my 5050 alloy and the only reason i wouldnt recomend it for even higher velocitys is one instance i withnessed. My buddy shot a 600 lb red stag in the shoulders with a 50 alaskan shooting a 480lfngc that i casted out of 5050 and that bullet did rivit in the nose and didnt go through both sides of the animal. Now we found it under the skin on the far side of the offside shoulder so it came dammed close to doing it but once it rivited the parachute was out. The load was pushing that bullet to about 1900 fps and im sure that if the alloy had been straight lineotype or the speed would have been dropped a couple hundred fps it would have blown right through. Was it a bullet failure yes and no. It didnt do what we expected it to do so in that case yes but the animal dropped dead in its tracks so I guess its pretty tough to call it a complete failure.