Author Topic: Do you think Knight is lagging behind or do I just not understand them? (Read 2310 times)

gt2003 · « **on:** July 14, 2007, 05:45:45 PM »

I'm definitely not brand bashing here. I've got an older Knight Wolverine with the #11 cap ignition system. The gun is extremely accurate and I wouldn't trade it for the world. I just see the T/C and even CVA offerings and wonder if Knight is keeping up with the pack. What are everyones thoughts? Their primer systems/jackets seem to be an inconvenience but are they worth it reliability wise? They may actually be ahead of the pack so I'm really just looking for opinions. Like I said, i like Knight but for some reason feel they are lagging behind a bit. Thoughts appreciated. Greg

Two Bears · « **Reply #1 on:** July 15, 2007, 06:49:29 AM »

Ever since Tony Knight sold the company to GM "I" think that Knight has lost its "cutting edge" front running status in the industry. (My opinion) as I always liked Knight rifles and wish that I never sold the ones that I had.

I hope that they come out with another home run with design and stick with it to build its reputation back to where it was before.

JGREG · « **Reply #2 on:** July 15, 2007, 09:40:40 AM »

Does anybody have the new kp1 maybe wrong name but the one you can change rifle barrels on??

Wolfhound · « **Reply #3 on:** July 22, 2007, 03:06:58 AM »

Quote from: Two Bears on July 15, 2007, 06:49:29 AM

Ever since Tony Knight sold the company to GM "I" think that Knight has lost its "cutting edge" front running status in the industry. (My opinion) as I always liked Knight rifles and wish that I never sold the ones that I had.

Green Mountain has never owned Knight. They are both owned by the same company, Ebsco. Tony sold it to the Watley family. They sold it to Ebsco after the Disc rifle was invented.

poncaguy · « **Reply #4 on:** July 22, 2007, 07:06:22 AM »

They also have a new falling block action out, seems like they're keeping up to me.........I a TC guy though.

manofthe45 · « **Reply #5 on:** July 23, 2007, 04:19:13 AM »

Quote from: poncaguy on July 22, 2007, 07:06:22 AM

They also have a new falling block action out, seems like they're keeping up to me.........I a TC guy though.

Still a couple steps behind T/C IMO, but at least knight used their own design with the kp1 unlike CVA with their weak clone of the Encore. Cva cloned the encore, the omega, Whats next a cva clone of the icon with their own 30 CVA round.

IMO you still have quality ML manufacturing companies like T/C and Knight. Then you have your garbage/bargain gun manufactors like Traditions and CVA

AndyHass · « **Reply #6 on:** July 23, 2007, 08:06:09 AM »

Knight could get back in the game if they would think outside the box and drop the Disc....The Elite was one good gun except I will never buy one that requires those proprietary Discs. Yes, I have to prime my own .25 ACP cases now but I can get them anywhere and can swap back to 209s if I like.

I have no opinion on the new Knight as I have not held one yet. Hopefully they're coming up with something novel to keep everyone else on their toes.

elkstalkr · « **Reply #7 on:** July 25, 2007, 10:24:31 AM »

I'm a Savage man myself, so yea I think they are WAY behind.

gt2003 · « **Reply #8 on:** July 26, 2007, 01:52:24 AM »

Does the falling block action still require the disc? That's what I'm trying to stay away from. That's all I need is one more component to keep up with. I'm also not sold on the 209 primer ignition. I guess if I buy a new gun it will have to be .25 acp ignition system capable. Thanks, Greg

Wolfhound · « **Reply #9 on:** July 26, 2007, 10:18:32 AM »

Quote from: gt2003 on July 26, 2007, 01:52:24 AM

Does the falling block action still require the disc? That's what I'm trying to stay away from. That's all I need is one more component to keep up with. I'm also not sold on the 209 primer ignition. I guess if I buy a new gun it will have to be .25 acp ignition system capable. Thanks, Greg

http://www.knightrifles.com/catalog.aspx?catid=NonFullPlasticJacket

They now make plugs for the guns that use the plastic jackets so you don't have to use them. The KRB7 doesn't use the FPJ's. Neither does the KP-1.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #10 on:** July 27, 2007, 06:12:25 PM »

Quote from: manofthe45 on July 23, 2007, 04:19:13 AM

Quote from: poncaguy on July 22, 2007, 07:06:22 AM
They also have a new falling block action out, seems like they're keeping up to me.........I a TC guy though.

Still a couple steps behind T/C IMO, but at least knight used their own design with the kp1 unlike CVA with their weak clone of the Encore. Cva cloned the encore, the omega, Whats next a cva clone of the icon with their own 30 CVA round.

IMO you still have quality ML manufacturing companies like T/C and Knight. Then you have your garbage/bargain gun manufactors like Traditions and CVA

You know...you really like to bash the CVA for 1 reason or another...and it just gets a little boring after a while...Get a life would you...My CVA isn't a bargain bin close out nor is it garbage...It's a really nice shooting rifle that is made quite well...CVA didn't clone the Encore...They have their similarities...but they are different...They are just like most other gun manufactures who use similar designs by others...including T/C...

Mac

manofthe45 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 28, 2007, 01:14:10 AM »

Mac,

You like them/I don't, You think they are quaility / I don't. You brag on them/ I bash them. You have your opinion/ you guessed it. Funny I bash savages too, why aint you complaining about that. This ain't the CVA section and I didn't fire the first shot so until I start with you in the CVA section I guess I am free spend my life bashing what I dang well please.

I hope your Cva never discharges while you are closing it, blowing a hole in the ground in the space between you and your father due to a piss poor design that the company knew about and not only didn't recall the guns, but refused to change the defective part out with a redesign they did.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #12 on:** July 28, 2007, 06:36:00 AM »

Quote from: manofthe45 on July 28, 2007, 01:14:10 AM

Mac,

You like them/I don't, You think they are quaility / I don't. You brag on them/ I bash them. You have your opinion/ you guessed it. Funny I bash savages too, why aint you complaining about that. This ain't the CVA section and I didn't fire the first shot so until I start with you in the CVA section I guess I am free spend my life bashing what I dang well please.

I hope your Cva never discharges while you are closing it, blowing a hole in the ground in the space between you and your father due to a piss poor design that the company knew about and not only didn't recall the guns, but refused to change the defective part out with a redesign they did.

BPI did this? On which rifle? What is being produced today isn't the same...and you need to at least recognize the differences...Companies change..products improve and become stronger...Look at the strength differences between the T/C & the Encore...Look at the differences between what H&R produced and what NEF is making right now...Both companies have improved their products and also made them stronger...Why is it that BPI can't or hasn't?? There is a big difference between having an opinion and stating it is your right to voice it...than arbitrarily slamming ( or as you state...bash them) the company every time it is mentioned...You do the later...

You ask me why I don't say something when you state you don't like Savages...fair question...The reason is I haven't seen you say the same things about them..in the same context...If I did...I would say something about it...

You don't like them...fine...that's fair...a lot of people don't...and the early CVA's did have problems...You have a preference for something else...Fine...no problem...But...The BASHING stops....You want to rant about what another company did...stipulate that is was an earlier one and built by a different company...BPI has come a long way to correcting mistakes that were made...They aren't responsible for those mistakes made on the earlier CVA guns...Just as Marlin isn't responsible for mistakes the original H&R company did...

Giving constructive criticism is better than just calling things junk or garbage...but...you don't want to do that...You want to bash the current company for past mistakes...It isn't an acceptable thing to do...no matter which forum it is on...

Mac

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #13 on:** July 28, 2007, 12:23:35 PM »

Quote from: manofthe45 on July 23, 2007, 04:19:13 AM

Quote from: poncaguy on July 22, 2007, 07:06:22 AM
They also have a new falling block action out, seems like they're keeping up to me.........I a TC guy though.

Still a couple steps behind T/C IMO, but at least knight used their own design with the kp1 unlike CVA with their weak clone of the Encore. Cva cloned the encore, the omega, Whats next a cva clone of the icon with their own 30 CVA round.

IMO you still have quality ML manufacturing companies like T/C and Knight. Then you have your garbage/bargain gun manufactors like Traditions and CVA

If you knew what u were talking about, cva's optima's were cloned after the h&r rifles. Or to make it more plain to you, NEF SIDEKICK.

Wolfhound · « **Reply #14 on:** July 28, 2007, 12:50:50 PM »

Quote from: bigblock455 on July 28, 2007, 12:23:35 PM

If you knew what u were talking about, cva's optima's were cloned after the h&r rifles. Or to make it more plain to you, NEF SIDEKICK.

It's a clone of the Encore but using the much cheaper NEF style action. The Sidekick uses plastic holders that the Optima doesn't. Also the Optima are drop in replacements like the Encores. For a NEF you have to send the action to the factory to have the barrel fitted. Or at least you did when I last owned a NEF several years ago.

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #15 on:** July 28, 2007, 01:16:33 PM »

I have an h&r 20 gauge shotgun, do they sell muzzleloader barrels for it?

And the only thing that comes close to an encore is the cva optima elite that can use an assortment of centerfire barrels. The regular optima is a muzzleloader/shotgun deal. To say its a copy is way off. Its BASED closely to it but way different stocks, barrels, way different designs. In order to say its a copy would mean it has to look dead on balls the same as an encore.

Wolfhound · « **Reply #16 on:** July 28, 2007, 02:32:40 PM »

Quote from: bigblock455 on July 28, 2007, 01:16:33 PM

I have an h&r 20 gauge shotgun, do they sell muzzleloader barrels for it?

You'd have to ask them. I haven't had a NEF in years.

Quote

And the only thing that comes close to an encore is the cva optima elite that can use an assortment of centerfire barrels. The regular optima is a muzzleloader/shotgun deal. To say its a copy is way off. Its BASED closely to it but way different stocks, barrels, way different designs. In order to say its a copy would mean it has to look dead on balls the same as an encore.

Not really. But it does have a nasty swaybacked stock like the Encore and they compared it to the Encore in the ads. "Looks like the only difference is $300" or something like that. If it were a clone of the Sidekick there would be no way they could sell them. The Sidekick is a much better rifle for about the same price or cheaper. And they do have a firearm version of the Optima called the Optima Elite.

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #17 on:** July 28, 2007, 02:49:09 PM »

I'll have to check and see if they make a barrel. that would be interesting but if its like you said, send in the barrel to have it fitted, thats the only turn off for me. I never could get the encore to line up good for me, i always had to press my cheek hard against the stock to barely get the sights lined up, They dont offer enough drop for me. Luckily i was at the store, i sure would have hated to pull the trigger with my cheek pressed against the stock like that lol. The Regular Optima on the other hand, had the right around of drop. I'd just like a t/h stock if i were to get one. Then again, ive been checking out the optima elite combo. $:-\$

manofthe45 · « **Reply #18 on:** July 28, 2007, 05:39:59 PM »

MAC

As the subject line has nothing to do with Cva I will drop it with you. Course I didn't start with you in the first place.

As far as comparing the optima to the sidekick. I believe that the Sidekick is a fine ML properly priced that shoulders nicely and are surprisingly accurate without the problems I have had with H&r and nef centerfires. I believe wolfhound may have hit it perfectly on the head encore stock NEF frame, but I dare anyone to hold BPI's clone of the omega(yes I am aware they built the same gun under atleast two differant brand names) and a T/c omega up side by side and be able to tell them apart at 10 feet. (I'll share a secret look at the trigger guard it is about the only differance)

To the original ? IMO (and only that. course if it offends anyone that is just a added bonus for me) Knight manufactors a quality ML with many inovative ideas and is still a leader in the pack

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #19 on:** July 28, 2007, 06:44:32 PM »

Besides the trigger guard, you can easily tell the difference between an Apex and an omega. Solid stock VS cheap hollow noisy stock. Then again when you go to shoot a conical, you'll know which one the omega is when you scratch your head and ask why it wont group.

gt2003 · « **Reply #20 on:** July 29, 2007, 03:12:39 AM »

Dear hijackers, hehehe, this thread is about Knight ML's.....Just kidding, anyway, thanks for the input. I'm glad to hear that Knight has an option to get away from the discs. From what I have heard its a great system, just not something I want to mess with.

AndyHass, is there a .25 acp kit available for the Knight Rifles? That could sway my opinion back in favor of them. Although I still don't think I want to get rid of my Wolverine. That sucker is a tack driver!

Wolfhound · « **Reply #21 on:** July 29, 2007, 05:41:43 AM »

Quote from: gt2003 on July 29, 2007, 03:12:39 AM

Dear hijackers, hehehe, this thread is about Knight ML's.....Just kidding, anyway, thanks for the input. I'm glad to hear that Knight has an option to get away from the discs. From what I have heard its a great system, just not something I want to mess with.

AndyHass, is there a .25 acp kit available for the Knight Rifles? That could sway my opinion back in favor of them. Although I still don't think I want to get rid of my Wolverine. That sucker is a tack driver!

Not AndyHass but I can answer that for you. There isn't one yet.

This is the list from PR's website. http://www.prbullet.com/hornet.htm

Quote

22 Hornet T/C Omega & Encore breech plug
$ 59.95 includes 12 shortened .22 Hornet unprimed brass

.25 ACP T/C Omega & Encore breech plug
Nothing to trim. Nothing to fit. $ 59.95 includes 12 .25 ACP unprimed brass

.25 ACP T/C G2 Contender .45 breech plug
Nothing to trim. Nothing to fit. $ 59.95 includes 12 .25 ACP unprimed brass

.25 ACP CVA Optima / Kokiak & Winchester Apex breech plug
Nothing to trim. Nothing to fit. $ 59.95 includes 12 .25 ACP unprimed brass

.25 ACP NEF Huntsman / Sidekick 7/8" thread breech plug
Nothing to trim. Nothing to fit. $ 59.95 includes 12 .25 ACP unprimed brass

.25 ACP NEF Huntsman / Sidekick 5/8" thread breech plug
Nothing to trim. Nothing to fit. $ 59.95 includes 12 .25 ACP unprimed brass

.25 ACP New Unprimed brass now available:
.25 ACP unprimed new brass available.

gt2003 · « **Reply #22 on:** July 29, 2007, 02:43:52 PM »

Thanks Wolfhound. I had gone to their site and was hoping maybe I had missed something. I'm sure if there is a market for it that they will produce it. Thanks again for the info, Greg

Wolfhound · « **Reply #23 on:** July 30, 2007, 02:03:21 AM »

If they ever release one that will work in a Wolverine I'd buy it for my pistol.

longcaribiner · « **Reply #24 on:** August 02, 2007, 04:21:42 AM »

I find it kind of hilarious that anyone thinks that in lines are "new." I have an in-line made in Philadelphia in the mid 1800's, with double set triggers. I have another that was made in Annapolis Maryland in the 1960's, by a gun smith named Pat Miller. I have owned it since the mid 1970's. In 1983 I was at a rifle range near Davidsonville Maryland and saw an electric ignition muzzleloader made by a local tinkerer with an electric switch trigger and a spark plug. He got the idea from reading of an early experimental car engine that used gun powder as fuel. The "new" Remington Genesis is a copy of the Pheonix Target rifle from the 1870's. The falling block systems used by so many manufacturers are just revamped 1885 Winchester Highwall designs, which were copied from the Remington Hepburn of the 1870's). The tip ups are copies of the early Maynards and Wurfleins. (Remember the Daisy caseless ammo from the 1970's, copied from the 1832 patent for the needle gun. The very first lever action repeaters used caseless ammo in the 1830's)

There must be clouds of dust at the Patent office as the manufacturers root through 150 yr old patents looking for other old ideas they can adopt as new.

I can't say anything I see is really that new.

Double 30 · « **Reply #25 on:** August 15, 2007, 11:04:08 AM »

Well God Bless Longcaribiner! Well said! How about a picture of the 1800's inline? heard about them but never saw a picture. Thanks!

flinthead · « **Reply #26 on:** August 17, 2007, 04:58:06 PM »

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #27 on:** August 17, 2007, 05:41:28 PM »

1800's inline.. And Idaho legal too!

manofthe45 · « **Reply #28 on:** August 18, 2007, 05:39:56 PM »

Now that is a nice looking firearm. Thanks

KYBOY · « **Reply #29 on:** August 28, 2007, 05:16:50 PM »

My wife's papaw was modifying muzzle loaders to use 209 primers a long time ago..Mid to late 70's anyway.
On the topic I think knight is lagging a bit behind, dont get me wrong i like knight rifles. One of the best shooting muzzle loaders I ever put to my shoulder was a knight disk extreme. Ill still take my encore any day though..