204 Ruger or 22-250 ?

[DalesCarpentry]

Well guys I had to sell my infamous 204 Fluted barrel today due to unseen money problems. I hated to sell it but had to. I told the wife in a couple weeks when we get through this that I want to hear no crap when I send my receiver in to get another one. I got to thinking as much as I liked the 204 Fluted. I was wondering if I might like the 22-250 Fluted better. I like the idea of shooting just a little heavier bullet than the 204. What do you guy's think? What do you think the pros's and cons here are? I guess you already know I would be hunting Groundhogs and such at some pretty far off distances.  Dale

[dw06]

Hey go for it.I bought a 22-250 about 20 years ago and never regreted it.In fact it is not only the most accurate rifle I've ever owned,it also is the easiest to load for.It will shoot under half inch with several powders and bullets.Since I have it I never even considered a 204,well ok maybe I did but I cant justify getting one.Give one a try,they are superb on groundhogs and yotes as far as you can shoot it accurately.

[DalesCarpentry]

Yea I am thinking hard about it. The 204 shoots just a hair more flat and is about 100 to 150 FPS faster than the 22-250 but I do like the idea of being able to shoot heavier bullets than the 204. I think the 45 grain VMAX would probably shoot real good out of it.    Dale

[quickdtoo]

Dale, you already know the answer to your question.......BOTH!!

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,110655.msg1098335625.html#msg1098335625

But until that happens, decide for yourself. I read a lot at Predatormasters, the virtues of the 204 are less noise, recoil and the ability to keep the target in view at the shot. The 204 also shoots as flat as the 22-250 due to the higher BC bullets and has more energy at range than the 22-250. There are lots of 204 shooters that won't go back to the 22-250 once they use them. There are also a bunch of 22-250 shooters that won't try the 204, and the crowd that has tried it and went back to the 22-250 for whatever reason, usually lack of energy on the closer shots on coyotes.

Here's a 3 page discussion on long range coyotes at PM that has a lot of 204 vs 22-250 talk.

http://www.predatormastersforums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=5&Number=52561846&page=0&fpart=all

and an accuracy comparison discussion...

http://www.predatormastersforums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=52558614&page=&fpart=all&vc=1

A ballistic comparison tween the Rem 204 40gr Accutip and 22-250 50gr Accutip..

http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/comparative_ballistics_results.aspx?data=PRA204B*PRA2250RB

Tim

[DalesCarpentry]

Thanks Tim. I will have some reading to do. I have never owned a 22-250 but have had the 204. I may spoiled and don't know it yet.   Dale

[quickdtoo]

Here's some more for ya...

http://204ruger.com/204_overview.php

http://www.rugerhunting.com/forum/

[Hairtrigger]

I have a friend that sang the praises of the 204.
When we go woodchucking I carry either a 220 Swift or the 22-250. He carried his 204.
He was happy with the 204 until he decided he wanted heavier bullets than the 32gr. Once he tried heavier bullets in his 204 he no longer liked it and sold it for a 22-250.

[DalesCarpentry]

One other thing that has to be taken into consideration is wind. I think the heavier bullets do better in wind. Some of the farms I hunt are wide open spaces and on a windy day I sure can tell it with the 204.     Dale

[quickdtoo]

The only time the 22-250 has an advantage is if heavier bullets are used which require a much faster twist than the 1:14" H&R offers. To quote Jack Roberts in one of the PM threads.

Actually both the 22-250 and the swift will be much better in the wind with a custom fast twist barrel shooting 80 gr bullets. But in the normal factory barrels which can't shoot the high BC bullets the 204 gives up nothing to the 22-250 or the Swift.

Jack

Unfortunately, the 45gr Hornady bullet probably isn't a good choice for long range, it has a BC of .245 compared to the .275 of the 40gr Vmax. Berger offers a 50gr Match/Varmint .204" bullet with a BC of .295, that would be one to check out!

http://www.bergerbullets.com/

Tim

[statelinerut]

I love my 204. I got the CZ American in 204 and this is the first three shot group at 80 yards. I was amazed. Very low recoil, low muzzle blast, and a blast to shoot.

[trotterlg]

If you compare Oranges to Oranges and look at full up loads with 40gr bullets or 30gr bullets (Yes, they do make 30gr bullets for a 22-250) in each you will find the 22-250 is quite a lot faster and flatter than a .204 is, at least out past 300-400 yards. Remember, those 600 yard running Coyote shots were mostly made in a bar near closing time.   30gr bullets will make over 4,600fps out of a 22-250, and 40gr ones will make at least 4,200 and not even creater a primer.  No matter what the salesman says, all that powder does buy you something, a 204 is not in the same league as a 22-250 or a Swift.  If you believe the more effecient bullet story then you need to go with a 17 Remington and shoot 30gr BT's like I do.  Larry

OK, just did the numbers, 40gr bullet, a BT .204 BC of .236 (good), MV of 3700fps and 40gr FB .224 bullet, BC of .160 (bad) MV 4200fps.  Both go below -2 inches at 285 yards when zero at 250 yards however the .204 is over +2 inches between 120 and 175 yards while a 22-250 is always less than 2 inches high or low from 0 yards to 285 yards.  If you move up to heavier more efficient bullets the advantage swings heavy towards the 22-250 and Swift.  Move out to 500 yards and a 17 Remington with 30gr bullets beats the drop of a .204 with 30gr bullets by over 9 inches.  My thoughts about the .204 is that is a "wanta be" cartridge, it doesn't have the ability to compete with the big boys and it doesn't have the finess to compete with the little guys.  Larry

[DalesCarpentry]

 Both go below -2 inches at 285 yards when zero at 250 yards little guys.  Larry
[/quote] I don't think I understand. How could such a flat shooting bullet drop 2'' in 35 feet? Maybe you just wrote it wrong.

[trotterlg]

It's 35 yards.  Larry

[DalesCarpentry]

The more I think about it. I think you probably meant a 100 yard zero. If I am not mistaken a 32 grain VMAX bullet zeroed at 100 yards is 4'' low at 300 yards.       Dale

[DalesCarpentry]

It's 35 yards.  Larry

I am sorry I meant yards. but I still don't see how it would drop 2'' in 35 yards.

[trotterlg]

Nope, a .204 zero at 250 yard is +1.6 at 100 +2.1 at 150 yards and -39 inches at 500 yards.  Larry

[trotterlg]

If you play with these hot little rifles (22-250's) you will find strange things, zero one at .235 yards and it is +1 inch at 100 yards and +1 inch at 200 yards.  Larry

[DalesCarpentry]

Here is Hornady for a 40 grain VMAX.204 RUGER 40 GR V-MAX 83206
Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs)
Muzzle 100 yd 200 yd 300 yd 400 yd 500 yd
3900/1351 3482/1077 3103/855 2755/674 2433/526 2133/404
 
Trajectory (inches)
Muzzle 100 yd 200 yd 300 yd 400 yd 500 yd
-1.5 0.7 0.00 -4.3 -13.2 -28.1
 

[DalesCarpentry]

My 204 when zeroed at 100 yards seemed to still be rising at 200 yards. I really don't know how that would be possible but it seemed to be almost an inch high at 200 yards with a 100 yard zero. It could have been the barrel heating up though. Dale

[trotterlg]

When it comes right down to it, it just doesn't matter, shoot a hole through something with any of the above and it will die.  PD shooting is a sport to it's self, not really related to any other shooting.  Long range and lots of ammo, hot barrels and many rifles to keep shooting.  If you are shooting a Coyote you will probably never shoot past 200 yards, probably more like 35 yards if you have any skill at all, and sitting in the brush you will be lucky to see the short little things much further away anyway.  I have my 17 Rem zero at 200 yards, gets me a half inch high at 100 yards, so it is really point and shoot at anything I can see.  My 30 Carbine is zero at 100 yards and, as much as I hate to say it, it is probably just as good as a Coyote rifle as my 17 Remington Savage is.  Larry

[trotterlg]

A high mounted scope can do that, to hit zero close in it will still be going up at 200.  Larry

[quickdtoo]

Here's your 30gr Berger .224" bullet in a 22-250 with a muzzle velocity of 4554 which is computed with Quick Load by Walt Berger for me. The BC of the 30gr .224" bullet is a miserable .117 and leaves a miniscule amount of energy at 500yds!!

Trajectory for Berger .224 dia. 30 gr. MEF at 4554 Feet per Second
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.117   0.117   0.117   0.117   0.117
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 3040   3040   3040   3040
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0   Cross Range: 0.0   Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 0 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range   Velocity   Energy   Momentum   Drop   Bullet Path   Wind Drift   Time of Flight
(Yards)   (Ft/Sec)   (Ft/Lbs)   (Lb-Sec)   (inches)   (inches)   (inches)   (Seconds)
0   4554.0   1381.3   0.61   0.0   -1.5   0.0   0.000000000
25   4264.1   1211.0   0.57   -0.05   -0.54   0.0   0.017022466
50   3991.8   1061.3   0.53   -0.23   0.29   0.0   0.035204256
75   3735.7   929.5   0.50   -0.54   0.99   0.0   0.054629101
100   3494.6   813.4   0.47   -1.01   1.54   0.0   0.075389639
125   3266.9   710.8   0.44   -1.65   1.91   0.0   0.097589309
150   3051.1   620.0   0.41   -2.5   2.07   0.0   0.121346826
175   2845.7   539.3   0.38   -3.58   2.0   0.0   0.146801499
200   2649.6   467.6   0.35   -4.93   1.66   0.0   0.174116502
225   2461.8   403.6   0.33   -6.59   1.01   0.0   0.203483304
250   2281.7   346.7   0.30   -8.61   0.0   0.0   0.235129728
275   2109.0   296.2   0.28   -11.05   -1.43   0.0   0.269320479
300   1944.1   251.7   0.26   -13.98   -3.34   0.0   0.306361592
325   1787.5   212.8   0.24   -17.49   -5.84   0.0   0.346597882
350   1640.3   179.2   0.22   -21.67   -9.01   0.0   0.390406721
375   1503.7   150.6   0.20   -26.67   -12.99   0.0   0.438176132
400   1379.6   126.8   0.18   -32.62   -17.94   0.0   0.490273201
425   1269.8   107.4   0.17   -39.72   -24.03   0.0   0.546980174
450   1176.8   92.2   0.16   -48.17   -31.47   0.0   0.608398458
475   1101.8   80.9   0.15   -58.19   -40.47   0.0   0.674343000
500   1043.4   72.5   0.14   -70.0   -51.27   0.0   0.744367576

The 30gr Berger .204 bullet with a BC of .156

Trajectory for Custom .204 Berger at 4150 Feet per Second
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.156   0.156   0.156   0.156   0.156
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 4150   4150   4150   4150
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0   Cross Range: 0.0   Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 0 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range   Velocity   Energy   Momentum   Drop   Bullet Path   Wind Drift   Time of Flight
(Yards)   (Ft/Sec)   (Ft/Lbs)   (Lb-Sec)   (inches)   (inches)   (inches)   (Seconds)
0   4150.0   1147.1   0.55   0.0   -1.5   0.0   0.000000000
25   3949.4   1038.8   0.53   -0.07   -0.51   0.0   0.018527239
50   3757.8   940.5   0.50   -0.27   0.35   0.0   0.037997249
75   3574.7   851.1   0.48   -0.63   1.04   0.0   0.058462288
100   3399.4   769.7   0.45   -1.16   1.57   0.0   0.079978958
125   3231.4   695.4   0.43   -1.87   1.91   0.0   0.102609486
150   3069.8   627.7   0.41   -2.8   2.05   0.0   0.126423542
175   2914.2   565.6   0.39   -3.95   1.95   0.0   0.151499851
200   2764.0   508.8   0.37   -5.37   1.59   0.0   0.177927067
225   2618.8   456.8   0.35   -7.06   0.96   0.0   0.205804940
250   2478.2   409.0   0.33   -9.07   0.0   0.0   0.235246152
275   2341.8   365.2   0.31   -11.44   -1.31   0.0   0.266379981
300   2209.7   325.2   0.29   -14.21   -3.02   0.0   0.299350360
325   2081.9   288.7   0.28   -17.42   -5.17   0.0   0.334318724
350   1958.4   255.4   0.26   -21.13   -7.82   0.0   0.371463661
375   1839.6   225.4   0.25   -25.4   -11.04   0.0   0.410979952
400   1725.7   198.4   0.23   -30.33   -14.91   0.0   0.453077485
425   1617.5   174.2   0.22   -35.98   -19.5   0.0   0.497974189
450   1515.4   152.9   0.20   -42.46   -24.92   0.0   0.545888739
475   1420.1   134.3   0.19   -49.89   -31.3   0.0   0.597028516
500   1332.5   118.3   0.18   -58.4   -38.75   0.0   0.651569122

Hodgdon's data show the 40gr Vmax with a max load of BL-C2 at 3774fps, so I think Hornady is very optimistic with their data! Here's what Sierra Infinity does with Hodgdon's load. Also note the energy level at 500yd compared to the 40gr 22-250 load!

Trajectory for Hornady .204 dia. 40 gr. V-Max at 3774 Feet per Second
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.275   0.275   0.275   0.275   0.275
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 2800   2800   2800   2800
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0   Cross Range: 0.0   Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 0 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range   Velocity   Energy   Momentum   Drop   Bullet Path   Wind Drift   Time of Flight
(Yards)   (Ft/Sec)   (Ft/Lbs)   (Lb-Sec)   (inches)   (inches)   (inches)   (Seconds)
0   3774.0   1264.8   0.67   0.0   -1.5   0.0   0.000000000
25   3668.7   1195.2   0.65   -0.08   -0.5   0.0   0.020156537
50   3566.0   1129.3   0.63   -0.32   0.34   0.0   0.040892467
75   3465.9   1066.7   0.62   -0.73   1.02   0.0   0.062226390
100   3368.2   1007.4   0.60   -1.32   1.51   0.0   0.084177946
125   3272.7   951.2   0.58   -2.1   1.8   0.0   0.106767996
150   3179.4   897.7   0.56   -3.08   1.9   0.0   0.130018814
175   3088.2   846.9   0.55   -4.28   1.78   0.0   0.153954305
200   2998.8   798.6   0.53   -5.71   1.43   0.0   0.178600074
225   2911.3   752.7   0.52   -7.38   0.84   0.0   0.203983524
250   2825.5   708.9   0.50   -9.31   0.0   0.0   0.230133975
275   2741.3   667.4   0.49   -11.51   -1.12   0.0   0.257082753
300   2658.8   627.8   0.47   -13.99   -2.52   0.0   0.284863355
325   2577.8   590.1   0.46   -16.79   -4.24   0.0   0.313511753
350   2498.2   554.2   0.44   -19.91   -6.28   0.0   0.343066395
375   2420.0   520.0   0.43   -23.38   -8.67   0.0   0.373569693
400   2343.1   487.5   0.42   -27.22   -11.43   0.0   0.405066480
425   2267.7   456.7   0.40   -31.45   -14.58   0.0   0.437603662
450   2193.6   427.3   0.39   -36.11   -18.16   0.0   0.471231850
475   2120.8   399.4   0.38   -41.22   -22.19   0.0   0.506005213
500   2049.4   373.0   0.36   -46.82   -26.7   0.0   0.541980791

22-250 with max Hodgdon load of IMR3031 at 4224fps
Trajectory for Nosler .224 dia. 40 gr. Ballistic Tip at 4224 Feet per Second
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.221   0.221   0.221   0.221   0.221
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 2960   2960   2960   2960
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0   Cross Range: 0.0   Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 0 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range   Velocity   Energy   Momentum   Drop   Bullet Path   Wind Drift   Time of Flight
(Yards)   (Ft/Sec)   (Ft/Lbs)   (Lb-Sec)   (inches)   (inches)   (inches)   (Seconds)
0   4224.0   1584.4   0.75   0.0   -1.5   0.0   0.000000000
25   4079.0   1477.5   0.72   -0.06   -0.63   0.0   0.018069266
50   3938.8   1377.7   0.70   -0.26   0.11   0.0   0.036781361
75   3802.9   1284.3   0.68   -0.59   0.7   0.0   0.056160764
100   3671.4   1197.0   0.65   -1.07   1.15   0.0   0.076233312
125   3544.0   1115.3   0.63   -1.72   1.44   0.0   0.097026291
150   3420.4   1038.9   0.61   -2.53   1.55   0.0   0.118568661
175   3300.5   967.3   0.59   -3.54   1.48   0.0   0.140891459
200   3183.9   900.2   0.57   -4.74   1.2   0.0   0.164028248
225   3070.5   837.3   0.55   -6.16   0.72   0.0   0.188015611
250   2960.1   778.1   0.53   -7.8   0.0   0.0   0.212893409
275   2852.4   722.5   0.51   -9.7   -0.97   0.0   0.238705010
300   2747.3   670.2   0.49   -11.86   -2.2   0.0   0.265497543
325   2644.7   621.1   0.47   -14.31   -3.72   0.0   0.293322219
350   2544.4   574.9   0.45   -17.07   -5.55   0.0   0.322234908
375   2446.3   531.4   0.43   -20.17   -7.71   0.0   0.352296871
400   2350.3   490.5   0.42   -23.63   -10.24   0.0   0.383576096
425   2256.4   452.1   0.40   -27.48   -13.17   0.0   0.416144457
450   2164.7   416.1   0.38   -31.76   -16.52   0.0   0.450080442
475   2075.0   382.4   0.37   -36.51   -20.33   0.0   0.485469138
500   1987.6   350.8   0.35   -41.75   -24.65   0.0   0.522401070

[trotterlg]

How much energy does it take to kill a 10 ounce rat?  If it can get thre it will kill the rat.  Larry

[quickdtoo]

Larry,

This being Dale's thread and his quarry being groundhogs, I'd say it makes a big difference to him!!

I guess you already know I would be hunting Groundhogs and such at some pretty far off distances.  Dale

And btw, the BC of the 40gr .204" Vmax that Dale is shooting in his 204 is .275, not .236.

https://www.hornady.com/shop/?page=ballistics/popup&product_sku=22006

OK, just did the numbers, 40gr bullet, a BT .204 BC of .236 (good)

Tim

[trotterlg]

Sorry, I was looking at good bullets (Bergers), Never have been able to get the Vmax to shoot.  Larry

[quickdtoo]

If Dale was handloading, that would be meaningful to him, but he's stuck with factory loads......for now anyway!!! I wouldn't say the 40gr Vmax won't shoot good either, Mitchell proved that beyond a doubt.

Tim

[Mac11700]

Dale...

What you need to ask is quite simple...especially since your specifically talking about a Handi rifle...not a Savage..Remington..CZ..Ruger...or what ever...the question should be..." Which is more accurate in the Handi Rifles when shooting factory ammunition...the 204...or the 22-250..." While the 22-250's are nice...I really don't think they will out shoot the 204's in a Handi Rifle......and if you really want to shoot long range varmints...move on up to the 243 Bull Barrel and get some of the 65 grain V-max bullets...and then some 88 gr. Berger's once you start handloading

Mac

[DalesCarpentry]

Thanks Mac. I just set up my 243 with the 24'' bull barrel. I put the Ultra Varmint stocks on it with a Rock Mount bipod on it. I think my new Mueller 8.5x25x44 scope will be here tomorrow. This is going to be my long range Groundhog rifle. I can't wait to get it to the range. Then out to the fields. What bullet would you recommend? Remember I don't reload yet and I would like to reach out pretty far.  Dale

[Inrut24/7]

Dale...

What you need to ask is quite simple...especially since your specifically talking about a Handi rifle...not a Savage..Remington..CZ..Ruger...or what ever...the question should be..." Which is more accurate in the Handi Rifles when shooting factory ammunition...the 204...or the 22-250..." While the 22-250's are nice...I really don't think they will out shoot the 204's in a Handi Rifle......and if you really want to shoot long range varmints...move on up to the 243 Bull Barrel and get some of the 65 grain V-max bullets...and then some 88 gr. Berger's once you start handloading

Mac

Thats just about what i was thinking, it seems to me from reading on here for the past six months that the 204 is usually more accurate than the 250.

[just bill]

Dale,

In regards to shooting/hunting woodchucks the fact is the 22-250 with a 50 gr V Max doing 3800 fps hits them a whole lot harder and tears them up more than the .204  The 22-250 & 220 Swift tear up woodchucks (carnage) more than anything in .224 caliber down 

Lot of factory ammo both value and quality for the 22-250.

If you go 22-250 then go Hornady 50 grain V Max at 3800 fps or match the load reloading,  trust me,  22-250's luv 50 gr V Max's at about 3800 and they just rip the heck out of Chucks.