My Encores

[pdh]

Hi guys...got my eabco barrel in 30-06AI for my encore last week and thought I would post pics of both the 30-06AI and the 243AI Bullberry barrel....


30-06AI







243AI

[swampthing]

Looks like you ready out reach out there. How do they shoot? 

[nomosendero]

Very impressive indeed!! I have an 06'AI that I am very proud of. I bet these 2 barrels will be tack drivers. I look forward to a range report.

[pdh]

I am waiting for my dies from Hornaday for the 243AI...got the cases fireformed and ready. Going to load up some 30-06 sprg tomorrow and head out to get these fireformed then. Will start developing the Ackley loads later in the week. Will let ya guys know how things go....

[Heavy C]

I also have the '06 AI from EABCO.  It shoots extremely well with all of the factory ammo I have run through it so far.  For those of you that are reloading the AI what loads are you using?  What recipies did you reference?

[Davemuzz]

Help me (and maybe some others) out with a quick 'n dirty education of the AI243 vs the plain jane .243. Does the AI give you the same velocity with less powder or more velocity with the same powder....or more velocity with more powder?  It's been awhile since I've read the advantages of the AI shoulder.

Can you 'splain that in....say 10 words or less? (well....maybe more)

Dave

[pdh]

Dave...you get more powder capacity in the Ackley Improved's which will give you more velocity.

The 243AI is on the left...compared to the 243Win. As you can see...after fireforming the shoulder on the Aclkey Improved  case is moved forward plus the shoulder has a 40 degree angle





The 30-06AI




Heavy C....I am kinda cheating with 30-06AI. The Sierra Manual..5th Edition..has reloading data on the 30-06AI. A buddy of mine has a reloading program that you down load in your commuter...I believe it is call LAPD program..It is helping me alot in development of 243AI loads. Plus...you can go through a search engine on loads for 243AI on you comp. All kinds of info. And .... you can work up slowly from the parent round until you start reading high pressures....I got  shoot through a chrony for this to help read velocity and pressures.
I am sort of new in the Ackley game myself.....I am not an expert on this....

[Davemuzz]

PDH,

Thanks for the pic's! Like they say,,,pic's are worth a thousand words. I'll have to check the ballistic charts on the 243 vs the 243AI just for funzies to see what the additional velocity pick up is.

Again, thanks.

Dave

[kudzu]

What's the world coming to. Davemuzz seeking info from mere mortals instead of the trusty gun writers. WOW


Sorry Mods, I couldn't help myself   after reading the other thread.( tc accuracy )


TOTALLY uncalled for and out of line. There is no reason to try to tie this thread to any other and his post was not improper and not related to the previously mentioned thread.

There are several of you acting like a bunch of kids arguing on a school yard and you know who you are without me having to call names (all four of you). STOP IT DAMN IT. NOW. Graybeard.

[Heavy C]

Thanks PDH!  I'm closing on a new house on Monday and I will FINALLY have my own dedicated room for my toys and a reloading table.  I'll have check out those things you mentioned.  In the meantime I'll just keep on fire forming brass.

[pdh]

Heavy C....a buddy of mine has a custom 30-06AI rifle....build off the Rem700 action with the Kreiger barrel that shoots fantastic groups with his fire-forming loads....

 

[Davemuzz]

What's the world coming to. Davemuzz seeking info from mere mortals instead of the trusty gun writers. WOW


Sorry Mods, I couldn't help myself   after reading the other thread.( tc accuracy )

Not just mere mortals. But knowledgeable reloaders who know what they are doing. If you notice, I've never ask you or nomo a reloading question. GB has been here.

Sorry Mods, I had to respond with a logical and honest answer.

Dave

Yes he started it but you DID NOT have to continue it. Several of you are acting like a bunch of kids on a school ground not the adults you really are. Start acting like adults all of you that are involved in this pissing contest with Dave and you too Dave. Graybeard.

[Double D]

Stick with the topic Gents and cool it with the cheap shots...topic is too interesting to be distracted by the nonsense.

[Davemuzz]

Just as an example, the 243 vs the 243AI, using an 87gr Hornady bullet, the 243 will take a max load of H-4350 of 43.4 grains (Hornady 6th edition) and get 3100fps velocity, while the 243AI max load for the 87gr Hornady bullet is 46.3gr of H-4350 (reloadersnest.com) and get 3425fps velocity.

Just an FYI but as I perused and compared the velocity's of the two rounds, it looks like the AI rounds "on average" get about 300 fps more in velocity than the "regular" 243.

Dave.

[Keith L]

My BIL had a Sako re barreled in 243 AI and it never shot well again.  He is a great shooter, and one of the best reloaders I have ever worked with.  After a couple years of frustration it is now being re-barreled again.  No way of knowing what the problem was, but he will never even discuss an AI chamber now. 

[Graybeard]

Just as an example, the 243 vs the 243AI, using an 87gr Hornady bullet, the 243 will take a max load of H-4350 of 43.4 grains (Hornady 6th edition) and get 3100fps velocity, while the 243AI max load for the 87gr Hornady bullet is 46.3gr of H-4350 (reloadersnest.com) and get 3425fps velocity.

That data is mostly just inflated BS.

The AI concept is a sound one and works just fine for what it was intended to do. It can increase case life and while it does increase powder capacity a wee bit it's not a large increase. One of the things I happen to agree with John Barness on is that you get far less percentage of velocity increase than the percentage of case capacity increase. He studied a ton of ballistics data from pressure tested loads and his computations said for a 4% increase in capacity you gain 1% in velocity. Seems reasonable to me.

So in the case stated above you increased powder (not necessarily case capacity) by 2.9 grains which is a 6.6% increase in powder and you should therefore not expect more than a 1.6% increase in velocity. Not really that much in this situation since the larger case reduces pressure a bit thus velocity if using the same so you need more just to reach same velocity. A 1.6% velocity increase would be only 49.6 fps which is a far more reasonable and realistic expectation than the 325 fps the data source suggests.

The single biggest problem with the AI cases one and all is the almost total lack of pressure tested data. As a result folks go wild in their expectations and increase pressures to totally unsafe and ridiculous levels. If you run both the .243 and .243 AI at equal pressures you can AT MOST expect 100 fps velocity increase which is about all any AI can do with equal pressures. All you get over that comes at the price of increased pressures.

[Davemuzz]

My BIL had a Sako re barreled in 243 AI and it never shot well again.  He is a great shooter, and one of the best reloaders I have ever worked with.  After a couple years of frustration it is now being re-barreled again.  No way of knowing what the problem was, but he will never even discuss an AI chamber now. 

Yeah, when you "get stung" by something, it's tough to try 'em again. I once bot a 17hmr revolver. I will never own a 17hmr anything ever again. But that's just me.

I'm guessin he did ( after messing with it for a few years) the usual stuff...barrel float, recoil lug, barrel alignment...bla,bla?

Dave

[Davemuzz]

The single biggest problem with the AI cases one and all is the almost total lack of pressure tested data. As a result folks go wild in their expectations and increase pressures to totally unsafe and ridiculous levels. If you run both the .243 and .243 AI at equal pressures you can AT MOST expect 100 fps velocity increase which is about all any AI can do with equal pressures. All you get over that comes at the price of increased pressures.

Bill,

If it's a boat load of horse hockey, (the velocity differences) then why post the inflated velocity numbers? (I'm not looking for a concrete answer....this is more of a "Who would benefit from this?...if anyone?"

Dave



Oh, I got the message, loud 'n clear.

[Keith L]

My BIL had a Sako re barreled in 243 AI and it never shot well again.  He is a great shooter, and one of the best reloaders I have ever worked with.  After a couple years of frustration it is now being re-barreled again.  No way of knowing what the problem was, but he will never even discuss an AI chamber now. 

Yeah, when you "get stung" by something, it's tough to try 'em again. I once bot a 17hmr revolver. I will never own a 17hmr anything ever again. But that's just me.

I'm guessin he did ( after messing with it for a few years) the usual stuff...barrel float, recoil lug, barrel alignment...bla,bla?

Dave

His guns all are shooters because he is a stickler for the right stuff.  He pillar bedded a new stock, carefully went over the scope mounting system, replaced the scope, all the things necessary to make a shooter.  Maybe one group in ten was up to his standards.  For what he paid for the barrel and headspacing he should have had a shooter.  By fall he will have his new barrel fitted to the action, and we will see what that does.

A revolver doesn't do 17 HMR justice.  It is kind of like the worst of all worlds.  I have a super 14 barrel in 17 hmr and it works pretty well, but not as well as my rifles.  With the gap and shorter barrel in a revolver I can't see how it would work well.  And the little pill doesn't carry much knock down power.

[Graybeard]

Bill,

If it's a boat load of horse hockey, (the velocity differences) then why post the inflated velocity numbers? (I'm not looking for a concrete answer....this is more of a "Who would benefit from this?...if anyone?"

I guess I'm not clear on what you are asking here. Why did I post them or why did that source post them? I posted them to discuss an issue that is a real sore point for me. Most likely they did like others to sound authoritative and to convince folks how great the AI idea is. While it does have advantages huge velocity increases just is not one of them. Small increases yes but large ones no.

The .30-06AI, .280 Remington AI and .257 Roberts AI are the most common for which pressure tested data can be found. Nosler, Barnes and Hornady all have data on some of these three. Look them over and judge for yourself how much velocity is gained at similar pressures.

Oh, I got the message, loud 'n clear.

I hope the others involved did also Dave.

[Davemuzz]

Bill,

Interesting to note that in my Hornady load book, 6th edition, they only list one "improved" case load information. That is the 257 Roberts. And this is Improved version is the RCBS design with the 28 degree and not the Ackley design of 40 degree.

Also, Hornady's write up states: "With greater powder capacity, the improved case generally----though not always----has a higher velocity potential."  They don't even state that the velocity IS higher. They just state the POTENTIAL is higher. There tables show the fps increase of 100 over the regular 257 cartridge.

I would guess (SWAG) the pressure issue is why Hornady doesn't list any loads for any other AI case in any other cartridge.

Dave

[Davemuzz]

A revolver doesn't do 17 HMR justice.  It is kind of like the worst of all worlds.  I have a super 14 barrel in 17 hmr and it works pretty well, but not as well as my rifles.  With the gap and shorter barrel in a revolver I can't see how it would work well.  And the little pill doesn't carry much knock down power.

Yes. In the revolver the best it would do across the crony was 1,850fps (average) and that just wasn't enough to make that tiny bullet kill much other than a chipmonk. I took it groundhog hunting a few times. It was a good thing it was a six shot....it took one shot to wound 'em and 5 more to take 'em out. Not my idea of a clean kill.

I sold the gun to a woman who used it exclusively for indoor 25 yard target shooting. It was perfect for that use.

That 17 grain bullet has to go what....3500 fps I think to make it's killing power work? I dunno....I don't want to start talking about it again....it will just make my eyes bleed thinking about it!

Dave

[kudzu]

Sorry Guys, Didn't mean any harm.  Was just making a joke after reading the other thread.
Didn't mean it in a bad way , just thought it funny. Never thought I would get scolded by GB over this,(or I would not have done it) with all the intentional jabs I've read on here.

Point taken,will try to be more careful (and sensitive).

Sorry again, DM

[nomosendero]

I do not take offense to someone saying they would not want to get reloading advise from me. First of all, I don't offer such advise on a website, any web site. It is too easy for anyone taking advise to make the slightest modification & create problems. One can only look at this thread & see what a disaster that could be. Anyone who asks questions such as were asked, such as what the AI does, & does it do it with more powder, more pressure, yada, yada, sure as heck better not try to venture in such matters. And someone at this level would not know what I was talking about anyway & no doubt would think it was Greek, no I would not expect someone at this level would benefit in any way. I would suggest the new ABC's Of Reloading & the various reloading manuals. Study them diligently, like I did in the late 70's & early 80's & find a local reloader as well for some "hands on". Wildcats are for the experienced reloader. This is not meant to be offensive either, we all have to start sometime. 

The 243, 260,308 & several others don't have much taper & I don't see much gain with the 308 cased rounds. I think 100 fps would be a good bit, I would rather bet on 75 or so, but I do not have an AI in these rounds & therefore I am NOT qualified to say. Opinions just don't make it with me when it comes to reloading, been doing it too long & I am quite picky.

I do have a 30-06 AI, 25-06AI & 30-30 AI & I do know about those, at least in my guns. And as Bill stated, there are other advantages. The trimming will be reduced for sure. Also with a good rifle/barrel, it is an opportunity to get a match grade chamber if the reamer is top notch & the gunsmith using it. If not, you will could get a result as Keith mentioned, which has nothing to do with an AI itself. The 30-06AI gives me about 100fps & with the case advantages that Bill gave. The 25-06AI does a little better, about 125 or so. The 30-30 AI does alot better, closer to 200 fps.  
For reasons that no one knows, some who don't use or load ANY AI have come to the conclusion that ALL AI's gain 100fps over the parent case. This is not logical because the percent of increase in capacity varies with the parent case that is modified. As stated with the 308 family, the increase is small, with some such as the 30-30, it is more. The increase of performance with the 250Savage for example, is substantial indeed for those that want to research it. But you will find that anytime an AI is discussed, there will be more opinions stated by those who don't shoot AI's than from those that do, you can always count on that.  

[Graybeard]

You're right the gain at equal pressures will vary and each case is an individual to be looked at as such. I tend to use the 100 fps as a fair average for the AIs as a group. The .30-30 might gain the most volume of any as it is extremely tapered and the .250 AI is most often quoted as another that like the .30-30 tend to gain more than average.

I've owned a couple of .30-30 AIs but no .250 AI yet. I measured case volume of many cases both before and after fire forming and as best as I can recall they gain an average of 10% in volume after forming. Divide that by John Barness' number of four and you get a 2.5% theoritical velocity gain. Since we're looking at from 2000 to 2400 fps from the parent case depending on bullet weight that should equal about 50 to 60 fps theoritical increase at equal pressures. So even tho it gains more than average for AIs in volume it's theoritical increase is still less than 100 fps.

Yeah I know you likely got 300 fps many do. You can do it in the parent case to at that pressure level. I've worked with them and I like the idea but I don't kid myself on velocity increase at equal pressures. The lack of pressure tested data for them causes more folks to run blue pill prove loads thru their guns thinking they increase is due to the AI case than to pressures than any other single error in reloading.

[nomosendero]

You're right the gain at equal pressures will vary and each case is an individual to be looked at as such. I tend to use the 100 fps as a fair average for the AIs as a group. The .30-30 might gain the most volume of any as it is extremely tapered and the .250 AI is most often quoted as another that like the .30-30 tend to gain more than average.

I've owned a couple of .30-30 AIs but no .250 AI yet. I measured case volume of many cases both before and after fire forming and as best as I can recall they gain an average of 10% in volume after forming. Divide that by John Barness' number of four and you get a 2.5% theoritical velocity gain. Since we're looking at from 2000 to 2400 fps from the parent case depending on bullet weight that should equal about 50 to 60 fps theoritical increase at equal pressures. So even tho it gains more than average for AIs in volume it's theoritical increase is still less than 100 fps.

Yeah I know you likely got 300 fps many do. You can do it in the parent case to at that pressure level. I've worked with them and I like the idea but I don't kid myself on velocity increase at equal pressures. The lack of pressure tested data for them causes more folks to run blue pill prove loads thru their guns thinking they increase is due to the AI case than to pressures than any other single error in reloading.

Never said I ever achieve 300fps gain.
I don't know anything about 300fps in my personal experience. Like I said, I have achieved near 200fps in the 30-30 AI , I look for the same pressures in AI as standard, therefor the AI loads are no more scary than the standard ones. You are using the Barness theory as a scientific law, & it is not. It is a good rule of thumb that works on much of the time, but not all of the time. If it did, the light magnums could not exist. In this case, special powders help the factory rounds. By the same token, I have found for example that I can extract more vel. with the 25-06 than normal with a given powder that has not been used in most manuals. In the 25-06AI with the slightly bigger case, I can move to a slightly slower powder that yields the same effect in the AI case, but too slow for the same increased performance in the std. case. The Barness ratio misses this on occassion
& it is not magic, just happens rarely. The Barness story also works better with the larger cases than the small ones for obvious efficiency reasons.
Again, it is a good tool, especially for the novice trying to pick a general performance goal.

I guess I need to find time which I don't have right now to find a very good chart that I have seen that shows the average performance gain with all the AI's, a chart plotted by actual users. But then again, why mess with it. It is no problem if people think it will give then 25fps, 50, 75, whatever.
It is just not a matter of trying to covinse anyone to use an AI, there is no benefit to me whatsoever.
Getting 100-150 fps gain is easy with today's powders with the 30-30AI. How it was when you experimented & how hard you worked with it, I don't know, but I do KNOW what I am getting with SAFE pressures.

   

[Mac11700]

One thing folks forget...Every rifle is going to produce different results...There is no written rule or theory that will guarantee anything... Every rifle will be dimensionally different...just as every lot of powder/primers/cases will be different...No 2 bores will produce exact velocities for the same cartridge...Some differences will be small...others more dramatic...My manuals all show different barrel lengths on comparing the standard cartridges and their based wildcats..Some of the regular barrels are 22"...and then show a 26" for the Ackley cartridges...4" of additional barrel length with slower powder can show much higher velocities due to the expansion burn rate of the slower powder...It doesn't always mean it has exceeded max pressures for the case...every barrel is different...the old rules of thumb of how much you will gain versus the length doesn't always work out as they state...Bore dimensions/roughness/throat length/leade degree/chamber roughness...all will be different...producing different results...just as the different type of rifling..twist that is used...and the type of action it is being used in...all contribute to getting different results...Many times you will here folks say " I got a fast barrel"...when in fact there are a multitude of variables contributing to the extra velocity they get...and it just isn't always because of having a faster barrel...It can be sometimes...but not always..... You have to know what to look for and be able to do accurate measurements...to produce safe loads...Just looking for flattened primers and the cases over all length growth as the generally accepted way in the past doesn't get it today...This is why most say a beginner reloaders should just stick with the standard cartridges...

For some comprehension on how to approach max loads with it...look to the letter sent in to Hand loader Magazine by Jeff Milender and the reply he got from Ken Waters...http://www.angelfire.com/nd/243ackleyimproved/243AI60.htm...and another good site...http://www.6mmbr.citymaker.com/243Win.html...pay heed to their written warning in red...

WARNING: ALWAYS start 10% below these loads and work up. Pressures can vary dramatically from one barrel to another. Seating depths have a huge effect on case pressures--moving the bullet just .015" one way or another can push a "safe" load into the danger zone. Powder lot variances can be extreme--you may have to adjust a full grain or more. Whenever you buy new powder, even the same brand, start 10% low. NEVER assume pressures will be safe if you change lots or ANY component. Case web growth is probably the most reliable indicator of over-charge. By the time you're getting stiff bolt lift or ejector marks with fresh brass you've exceeded proper pressure levels. Ambient temperatures can alter pressures considerably. Don't assume cold weather loads are safe in summer. As you approach max loads, reduce the load increments. Just 0.2 grains can make a difference.

Lastly...S.A.M.M.I pressures are for the all the rifles that are out in the world...so that they will work safely thru them...and are the guidelines for ammunition makers to follow so they can be able to sell ammunition to the general public...not for the maximum pressure allowed for the case itself...A 30-30 Improved can be loaded higher safely in a good strong bolt action than it can in an old worn out sloppy chambered Model 94..Same for a 30-06 in a good model 700 Remington...over a new model 7400...but the factory ammo sold has to be able to work thru both...and all the real old actions still in use...

Bottom line...DON'T ASSUME ANYTHING...It's not only can lead to a short life for your rifle...but for you those around you......

Mac

[Graybeard]

Never said I ever achieve 300fps gain.

I don't know anything about 300fps in my personal experience. Like I said, I have achieved near 200fps in the 30-30 AI , I look for the same pressures in AI as standard, therefor the AI loads are no more scary than the standard ones.

OK granted I was probably out of line with THAT comment as you had not said it yourself but SOOOOOO many do my comment was more general to others who have and shouldn't have been aimed that directly at you.

HOW do YOU determine same pressure? Unless you have pressure measuring equipment then the comments do somewhat apply to you as you really have no safe sane way of determining pressure and like others are just guessing. IF you do have pressure measuring equipment then you can know but then you'll not likely be seeing 200 fps gains either unless you're using a different powder that if used in the parent case would have brought the real difference down to a more reasonable difference as well.

You are using the Barness theory as a scientific law, & it is not.

NO I AM NOT! I commented on how he derived it and said it seems reasonable to me. In each case I mentioned the application of it I said THEORITICAL meaning I accept it is theory and only theory. I happen to think it's a pretty good one however.

It is a good rule of thumb that works on much of the time, but not all of the time. If it did, the light magnums could not exist. In this case, special powders help the factory rounds. By the same token, I have found for example that I can extract more vel. with the 25-06 than normal with a given powder that has not been used in most manuals. In the 25-06AI with the slightly bigger case, I can move to a slightly slower powder that yields the same effect in the AI case, but too slow for the same increased performance in the std. case. The Barness ratio misses this on occassion & it is not magic, just happens rarely. The Barness story also works better with the larger cases than the small ones for obvious efficiency reasons.
Again, it is a good tool, especially for the novice trying to pick a general performance goal.

Is it missing or being misapplied? As I understand it and at least as I personally apply it you have to be using the same powder or at least a VERY similiar burn rate powder to apply it. If you use an incorrect powder in the parent case and a far more appropriate one in the AI then sure you'll see gains that appear to be magic but if you do it in reverse of that you might see a loss. Ya gotta compare apples to apples.

The Light Mag loads are a total apples to oranges argument as there is no increase in case capacity and at least so they say no increase in pressure but rather the powders used burn in a manner such that the pressure curve remains at peak longer to provide added PUSH to the bullet while in the barrel. With that magic powder and so at least some say application methods you can gain more than from an AI and sure in an AI using it the almost magic numbers some claim might come become real. It doesn't defy Barness' theory it merely side steps it with new powders that do not need more space or pressure at least so they say.

I guess I need to find time which I don't have right now to find a very good chart that I have seen that shows the average performance gain with all the AI's, a chart plotted by actual users. But then again, why mess with it. It is no problem if people think it will give then 25fps, 50, 75, whatever.
It is just not a matter of trying to covinse anyone to use an AI, there is no benefit to me whatsoever.
Getting 100-150 fps gain is easy with today's powders with the 30-30AI. How it was when you experimented & how hard you worked with it, I don't know, but I do KNOW what I am getting with SAFE pressures.

You and I are not REALLY saying such different things other than you are CLAIMING to KNOW safe pressures and I have to ask HOW? If you have pressure measuring equipment then fine that answers that question. BUT if you are merely guessing using the old methods used for years that have now been proven unreliable by almost every magazine writer still in the business they you cannot KNOW your pressures are safe. Like PO did in the old days when he claimed magic for his AI cases you are likely incorrect in your assumptions. I do not make assumptions about safe pressures. I've exploded a gun in my hands and survived with no long term injuries and feel mightly lucky to have done so. I DO NOT plan to repeat it. Yeah it was a book load that exploded the TC. The odd ball case headstamp just had a reduced capacity and I noticed it but chose in ignorance to ignore it and got the consequences of that decision.

[nomosendero]

Bill, I am glad that you did not get hurt. I don't have to tell you now, but you can't ignore such details, AI or not, doesn't matter.

I agree that the Barness theory works good sometimes, but sometimes it doesn't. It misses the mark more with some of the smaller cases than the big ones. We know that some rounds are more efficient than others & since that is true, the theory cannot be right for the least efficient & the more efficient, think about it, impossible. But it does work on some rounds, I tried it on the '06 & others & it was good, on the 6mmbr & others, it misses badly.

Do I have all of the pressure testing equipment,no & not for the AI's I load & not for the standard rounds I load. How many do & why would it only be important for the Ackley's?

When I said the same pressures, I was speaking in common sense terms, not just all of the old methods that don't work as you say, but I add case life as a component. After I work up slowly
to a pressure that from all indications is safe, it then needs to pass the test of the brass surviving
several firings. It doesn't matter if it is AI or std. to me. I think you know what I mean by this, you may load a couple different std. 7-08 loads with different bullets, with all of the pressure
indicators being the exact same & with the same long case life. Yes, they may be 2,000cup diff,
but if TOTALLY safe it is not an issue.

If you say we need all of the pressure testing equipment to load AI's, then we need it for std. rounds too. We can just shut down the reloading industry & be done with it. And no, we can't say we can just follow the manuals, because some loads will be too hot for some guns even if we start 15% below maximum, I have seen that when the gun had an issue from the factory, we still have to use our heads. And BTW, I have seen pierced primers in some guns when shooting factory ammo, in one case it was a a headspace problem on a new gun. In another gun the ammo was just a hot run for some reason & I did not need pressure testing equipment to tell me it was hot.

Yes, a near 200fps vel. increase is not a problem for me & safe as my std. 30-30 loads, although I could not get the gains that Fadala got with his 30-30AI's for many years. I don't like to reference gunwriters, but if it is OK for Barsness, it is OK for Fadala. BTW, Sierra is showing a 300fps gain with e the 6mmAI, this is done with a longer tube, but the same folks who think an AI offers nothing will tell you that a longer tube does little as well, the AI part should be 200fps or so, blame Sierra, not me.

If I owned this site I would be cautious too, but I have not made any out of the way claims & you are right, we aren't that far apart on most of this. I understand what is going on here.
I think it is best to refrain from AI matters on this forum, not worth the effort.

[Graybeard]

My concern and the reason I harp on AIs so much is that most people seem to think they have some magic in them and that they are much like waving a magic wand and velocity just appears from nowhere. All I'm really trying to do is bring more sanity to that thought process. With standard rounds there is much pressure tested data from many reliable sources to use to be sure you stay on safe ground. But with AIs there is precious little pressure tested data and plethora of BAD and even unsafe data from folks who have no clue they are using dangerous over pressure loads.

I cannot accurately predict how much velocity gain anyone is gonna get from their barrel and their loads nor what pressures they are running. But I have first hand experience with going beyond safe and it's NOT FUN. There just isn't the safety net with AIs generally speaking there is with standard rounds so folks are more prone to get in trouble by pushing the envelope. Magazine writers are not immune to that either and in fact not so many years ago were some of the worst at doing it because they had no pressure testing equipment either and back then still believed those old indicators folks like Ackley and Keith and such used worked. Now most all know better and they are more prone to use common sense in their recommendations, besides they and their employers are not immune in todays sue crazy society.

You are correct that 2000 is not a big issue with most any centerfire round. Perhaps in some old weak action guns maybe but for the most part that's not a biggie and you'll get that much variation between rounds loaded identically. In shotgun loads it does become an issue tho. But 20,000 is a BIG issue and that's easily what can happen with many of the untested AI load recommendations floating around.

Back in those lond ago days when I exploded that TC I was pretty nieve about a lot of loading stuff. I trusted load manuals TOO MUCH too. The manual I was using gave me no reason to doubt a S&W headstamp case could take the same loads I was using in WW and RP cases. Yeah I saw the difference in fill level but I just did not back then have the experience and knowledge to KNOW I should not do that. Deep down I suspected I shouldn't I really did. But I refilled and weighted the charge several times and inspected the cases and just couldn't find an obvious reason it filled so much higher with the same charge of powder. Today I'd have tossed that hull in an instant but back then I didn't and I paid the price.

Once you've had a gun come apart in your hands from an over load you're just a wee bit more cautious from that point on.