My Encores

[nomosendero]

Yes, an accident would get your attention. I know a guy that left his muzzleloader loaded over
the winter & then when he went to the range the following fall, he loaded it again. Yep, that got his attention as well.     That's why I like to mark ramrods.

Yep, pushing the envelope is wrong, AI or not. I agree that percentage wise, you may have
some folks pushing the AI's hard because increased performance is what they wanted to begin with & they take it too far. It has nothing to do with the cartridge & everything to do with them being reckless. It makes sense to expect a minor performance increase & if you get a little more SAFELY, it is gravy. For example, I never expected my 30-06AI to be a 300WM, I bought a 300WM Sendero for that function. What I did want was a little more than a 30-06 with an accurate chamber & I got that. As I said before, the 06' AI gave me 100fps (and a small amt. of change) over the '06. So, I could get 2,800-2,825  with a 180, & now a good 2,925. The light mag can get 2,900 with a 24" barrel they say, but I have never seen it with a 22", such as my AI. Plus, I am not limited to one ammo/bullet. But if I wanted 3,100 like a 300WM, I would be in trouble. This puts me within 100fps of 300WSM factory with '06 brass & with this rifle, that where I want it to be.So, have a logical performance goal & if your loads get too hot before you get there, then ACCEPT it. If you get a gain like Sierra obtained with the 6mmAI, then cherish that rifle & how it all came together, as I do with my 30-30AI. 

[JudeinPa]

I own a few Ackley Improved chambered rifles and handguns. I also use QuickLoad when working up loads to see the pressure spikes before I actually test any loads.

Ackley, when inventing his chambers, did many tests on pressure to see if his designs took the extra pressure from his minimal tapered cases. In his handbooks he actually shows how he he took a .30-30 Win and after rechambering to a .30-30AI slowly increased his powder charge to see how much pressure the side walls could take until the rifle came apart. He actually had to start unscrewing the barrel to cause excessive headspace to finally blow the .30- 30 Winchester apart.

Now I am not telling anyone to load until his gun comes apart but there is a way using a chrony to tell when you have reached the threshold of velocity gain in the MAX pressure zone. When using a chrony, once you see where your velocity starts to slow down in gain and the bolt (if you are using a bolt action as in most cases) isn't sticking and cases are not blowing primers or showing shiny marks on the case head, you reached the danger level. Once you reach that area, you then know that you have reached the MAX level in that powder and need to back off a grain or two.

In my Encored chambered AI's, I have never had any hard extractions using this method. I am no expert but have been handloading for 39 years. I also read about the chrony testing method in an old Guns & Ammo many years ago. The bottom line is you need to know the first signs of case failure with any handloading to know when you reach the danger level no matter if loading stock cases or wildcats even if you own a chrony for testing. Using all the above methods and working a load up slowly will let anyone know when they reach MAX.

[Graybeard]

I own a few Ackley Improved chambered rifles and handguns. I also use QuickLoad when working up loads to see the pressure spikes before I actually test any loads

.

I personally do not trust Quickload. With my first AI barrel bought used I got from the seller a bunch of Quickload printouts for recommended loads. He also gave me his full load log on the barrel showing his "supposed" accuracy and velocity results and also it came with a bunch of his reloaded ammo that at least "supposedly" were the loads listed in the logs.

What I noticed when I ran his loads in the barrel he had used over my Oehler was that the velocities he listed were GROSSLY over stated and accuracy was not even ball park what he had claimed he was getting. I was using same barrel and his loads actually sent with barrel to me. This was a TC Contender by the way.

In looking over the Quickload printouts there were many loads recommended by it that first wouldn't even physically fit inside the case and second that IF they had would have taken that barrel apart from pressure. Either his version had flaws or the program itself has major flaws. The data in those printouts could get someone killed. Needless to say when I sold the barrel those load sheets did NOT go with it. Maybe he was just using an older version with flaws but the data it printed was not safe data.

[JudeinPa]

Graybeard, The first and foremost thing that has to be done to use QuickLoad correctly is to program the cartridge data. If the data you used in your Q/L testing didn't have the correct data then it would throw off all the calculations of the load.

I also have QuickDESIGN and have designed a wildcat called the 8mm Grizzly. My purpose in the design was to get better velocities than a 8mm Rem Mag with less powder. It worked as the Q/L predicted and velocities were very close to the software. All data from my cartridge design was pulled over from Q/D so the cases dimensions were exact.



I also have done numerous tests making loads and then comparing to other loading manuals and data is also very close to many different manuals. As I mentioned, you must use the case and components that you are going to actually use in the load to make Q/L work correctly.

But to side step a little, the main knowledge any handloader must know is the first signs of pressure. If you load up SLOWLY, and look for pressure signs, you will be safe. Using that knowledge with a chrony will help even more. Q/L was just a side issue and not trying to sell it to anyone but if used correctly, it does work well and can be trusted but one has to first program to the correct COL and for it to work right.

[alsaqr]

"That data is mostly just inflated BS."

Bingo Graybeard.  Much of the "data" that is floating around can be attributed to Ackley himself.  In many cases the velocities are very  "optimistic" to say the least and many are outright distortions.   For about four decades i tried to make AI cartridges,
 including  .250 AI, .22/.30-30 AI, .270 AI (.250 Savage necked up) and .30-06 AI work for me in rifles.   The .22/.30-30 AI was a total success.  That rifle would  shoot the smallest groups that i ever fired from any rifle.   All the other calibers  were exercises in futility.  

"The single biggest problem with the AI cases one and all is the almost total lack of pressure tested data."

Absolutely correct.  Do not think that Ackley ever pressure tested anything.   Using a 150 grain Sierra BT bullet and a heavier
than recommended load of IMR 3031, that has proved safe in one of my .30-06s, i can equal or surpass anything that i was ever to work up for the .30-06 AI.  No, that load has not been pressure tested either but it shows none of the high pressure signs that we watch out for.  

[nomosendero]

"That data is mostly just inflated BS."

Bingo Graybeard.  Much of the "data" that is floating around can be attributed to Ackley himself.  In many cases the velocities are very  "optimistic" to say the least and many are outright distortions.   For about four decades i tried to make AI cartridges,
 including  .250 AI, .22/.30-30 AI, .270 AI (.250 Savage necked up) and .30-06 AI work for me in rifles.   The .22/.30-30 AI was a total success.  That rifle would  shoot the smallest groups that i ever fired from any rifle.   All the other calibers  were exercises in futility.  

"The single biggest problem with the AI cases one and all is the almost total lack of pressure tested data."

Absolutely correct.  Do not think that Ackley ever pressure tested anything.   Using a 150 grain Sierra BT bullet and a heavier
than recommended load of IMR 3031, that has proved safe in one of my .30-06s, i can equal or surpass anything that i was ever to work up for the .30-06 AI.  No, that load has not been pressure tested either but it shows none of the high pressure signs that we watch out for.  

I think if I had that much trouble I would have quit on the first one.

"That data is mostly inflated BS."  This statement was used the first time in reference to 300+ vel. gain of a 243AI as opposed to a std. 243. Is that what you are in reference too?  To me, that number seems high to me as well, considering the 243 does not have much taper, although I have no experience with the 243AI. I haven't studied this round much.

I know my data isn't inflated & as luck would have runs pretty close to the numbers in the Sierra V edition for the 25-06AI & 30-06AI. In reference
to newer, slower powders Sierra says "With these, the 25-06 Improved has started to realize it's true potential." They show a 200fps gain with a 75gr. bullet & a 100 fps gain with a 117, both with 26" tubes. Soooo, I am very much in line with a 125fps gain with a 125gr. Wildcat & RL25, the slower powder wakes up with this even heavier bullet, just what I would expect.

The man that wrote the text about the 30-06AI was not too crazy about it. They mentioned that the straight wall can mask pressure for a while.
Overloading was mentioned as well & that is true & goes back to what I said about the extra care & case life. Also, checking you case head exp. & as JudeinPa mentioned the chrony reading (no reason not to have a chrony now) & if you use your brain & are experienced, no problem. The guy in the text said 40-50FPS increase but the data shows the 30-06 & 30-06AI test guns to be 26" Savages & the AI is 100fps faster with the 150 & 180 & 200fps faster with the 190 grain. How bout that! Cartridges of the World 9th Edition states concerning the 30-06AI "With the proper
POWDER, it will add a little OVER 100 fps muzzle velocity to any bullet weight". Well, that sounds familiar, I get a 100fps gain, not too out of the ordinary at all I suppose & what I have seen from several sources.

Wow, see what Sierra says about the 6mmRemAI, yea baby!!! Expect better than a round like the 243AI because the 6mmRem has more taper.
Sierra says the following: "After fireforming, the improved case offers an increase of about 11% over the original design. This is a fairly substantial increase & provides a significant boost in velocity over the original 6mm Remington." Their data shows a 300 fps gain, though a good 100fps could be the diff. tube length. Goes back to what I said earlier about some cases gain more than others.

Well, what about the 30-30 AI? I said it has given me 200 fps with my best load. Sam Fadala claims 300fps for his Winchesters, a 100fps over what
it has done for me, but I would not call him a liar just yet & I was not there. Cartridges Of The World 9th Edition says the following : "Many hunters
have wished that the 30-30 had a little more oomph. The 30-30 Improved does just that by providing an additional 200-300 fps WITHIN THE
PRESSURE LIMITS OF THE STANDARD MODEL 94 WINCHESTER ACTION." Quite a statement there!!! Sooo, my results of 200fps is on the LOW
end of what Cart. of the W. said to expect. Someone said I could not get there without too high pressures. Go tell that to Cartridges Of The World, not me!!!

So I guess my data being in line with Sierra & Cart. of the World is quite reasonable after all.

Quote & requote: "The single biggest problem with the AI cases one and all is the almost total lack of pressure tested data".

Well, OK, but then this happened.
Quote: Absolutely correct. Do not think that Ackley ever pressure tested anything. Using a 150 grain Sierra BT bullet and a heavier than
recommended load of 3031, that has proved safe in one of my 30-06's, I can equal or surpass anything that I was ever to work up for the 30-06AI. No, that load has not been pressure tested either but it shows none of the pressure signs that we watch out for." 
 
So, does this mean the following:
1. It is bad that AI loads aren't pressure tested, but OK with std. loads.
2. Be afraid to say anything about an AI load (I won't anyway) because it could get dangerous & take out a couple of city blocks, but freely mention
we are over the book in a powder charge & it is OK because it is a std. cartridge & after all the pressure signs "we would watch out for" did not show up, even though we say at other times these indicators are unreliable.
3. AI's are no good because someone tried them & they did not work for him.
4. We should say on one hand that AI's with their increased powder space isn't magic because it is a small increase, but we can say that a std. cartridge is just as fast or what to heck faster with less powder space? 
NAY, I DON'T THINK SO!!

alsaqr, the fact that the AI's you tried did not work for you mean only ONE thing, they did not work for you. The fact that some AI's worked for me mean only one thing, they worked for me. That even happens with factory cartridges that some load for. Sometimes, you just can't get to the velocity you are supposed to. That only means you can't do it with that set-up, it happens. But no need trying to tell Sierra it won't work, they have the goods.
I would like to know why a std. cart, in this case a 30-06 would be no slower, possibly faster than the AI with more powder space. Is there any other 30 cal where this would happen? 308vs30-06, 30-06vs300H&H, 300H&Hvs300WM. Reminds me of some that think a 300WSM is faster than a 300WM when loaded to same pressures. I would like for you to explain how this could be please concerning the '06. 

[Graybeard]

Graybeard, The first and foremost thing that has to be done to use QuickLoad correctly is to program the cartridge data. If the data you used in your Q/L testing didn't have the correct data then it would throw off all the calculations of the load.

Could be. I really don't know anything personally about using the program. I was just given the sheets printed out from it by the former owner of that barrel. They had .30-30AI printed on them but I have no clue what parameters might have been programmed in for it. I only know that over half of the data he provided me looked grossly unsafe and a lot of them you couldn't have crammed that much powder in the case if you'd used a hydraulic press. It gave me a bad impression of the program but I've never tried it so that's the only real experience with it I have.

nomosendero true enough it's no safer to ignore book limits with a standard round than it is to explore the unkown with an AI or any wildcat with no tested data. Folks scare the heck outta me with some of the loads they mention using in all sorts of cases. I absolutely HATE it when someone says they have "no pressure signs" with that load in their gun. Damn it if the bullet came out that was a pretty good sign of pressure and there are no reliable indicators of when that pressure becomes excessive until the gun comes apart in your hand. Believe me that's a mighty strong indicator of EXCESSIVE pressure.

[Mac11700]

nomosendero true enough it's no safer to ignore book limits with a standard round than it is to explore the unkown with an AI or any wildcat with no tested data. Folks scare the heck outta me with some of the loads they mention using in all sorts of cases. I absolutely HATE it when someone says they have "no pressure signs" with that load in their gun. Damn it if the bullet came out that was a pretty good sign of pressure and there are no reliable indicators of when that pressure becomes excessive until the gun comes apart in your hand. Believe me that's a mighty strong indicator of EXCESSIVE pressure.

People get lulled into believing if it is printed in a book...then it is safe in every rifle...That's not any of the manufactures intent...If most actually took the time and read all of the warnings and instructions that are printed in all of the manuals...then they would see they are being told from the very start that every rifle is unique and should be treated as such...but...most skip all of that part of the manuals where it says to start low & work up.....because..."they have been doing it safely for all of these years..."I've heard that from a bunch of people...and I sure as heck wouldn't trust their loads in my rifles... Most don't even know how to read pressure signs...Those of us that do...know full well...that reading pressure signs isn't a exact science...but...short of having a strain gauge set up on each rifle we hand load for..is the best we can do...Those looking for flattened primers and heavy bolt lift or opening could have other issues with their rifles besides their loads...that will cause their brass or rifles to have a short life...


Mac

[JudeinPa]

Most don't even know how to read pressure signs...Those of us that do...know full well...that reading pressure signs isn't a exact science...but...short of having a strain gauge set up on each rifle we hand load for..is the best we can do...Those looking for flattened primers and heavy bolt lift or opening could have other issues with their rifles besides their loads...that will cause their brass or rifles to have a short life...

That is exactly my point. Who would keep increasing their powder charge when in the load development stage without looking for signs of pressure? The signs tell you that something is happening with your load. I have seen guys take a load out of the book and start at or near MAX. I just wonder why they even handload as the purpose is to work a load that shoots good in a rifle not to follow what works in someone elses rifle. Another myth is that the will get the same velocity as published in a manual. There are many factors that change that data. Even barrel twist and length can affect the end results.

[Tom W.]

I had my Ruger #1 re-chambered to 30/06 A.I. Not to gain a "laser" type rifle, but to have something that I've wanted for a long time. I don't expect .300 Weatherby   performance from it, but as Jude says, You gotta watch for subtle signs of pressure on those cases...

[nomosendero]

I had my Ruger #1 re-chambered to 30/06 A.I. Not to gain a "laser" type rifle, but to have something that I've wanted for a long time. I don't expect .300 Weatherby   performance from it, but as Jude says, You gotta watch for subtle signs of pressure on those cases...

Tom, I always thought a Number1 in 30-06AI would be neat. Which version do you have?

[Tom W.]

I have the #1B, blued, with a Limbsaver and a trigger job. I also have a fixed 6X Leupold with double offset rings...

[yooper77]

I reload for the 30-06 Springfield Ackley Improved and the 7mm (7X57) Mauser Ackley Improved.  My only goals are increase case life and tight groups.

[alsaqr]

Just got a book out of the attic and read a very good article on P. O. Ackley.   He never chronographed any of his loads.  He used the ballistic pendulum method of determining velocity.  There is an outfit that is working up pressure tested loads for the most popular AI cartridges. 

[nomosendero]

Hmmm, the exact same thing was discussed in this month's Guns & Ammo, the article "The Gunsmith's Gunsmith" in the monthly Shooter's Almanac section. The book is Wildcat Cartridges, published in 2005 bu Fred Zeglin.

[JudeinPa]

Has anyone here ever tried to squeeze out anything close in a parent cartridge to what a AI version will do?

I have run some tests using my 22-250AI against a buddies 22-250 Rem and in trying to match my velocity using the same bullet weight (even same bullet), ended up blowing primer pockets and not coming close in the parent case.

All testing was done over the same chrony for accurate results in velocity comparisons.

The reason is the amount of pressure the straighter case walls can handle in the AI version. The AI case can handle the extra powder to get the velocity gains.

[no guns here]

All I know is that my 6mm Remington runs from 50-300 fps faster than the .243 Winny.  Burns more powder to do it.  Still shoots pretty little dime-sized groups.  Has killed varmints, coyotes and deer.  No fire-forming necessary.  Just go shopping.  Why go with a round that is still a wildcat (mostly) instead of a factory round.  Not dogging anyone here, just pointing out that there is a lot of argueing and posturing going on and to me that is more trouble than it would be worth...


ngh

[nomosendero]

Nobody can make that call for everyone.
Then for you it is obvious that it would not be worth it. I feel it is that way for most people. What I have been talking about is the performance for the most part. We all have to decide if it is worth it. For me it is.

[Tom W.]

Wouldn't have done it if I thought it wasn't worth it. Besides, it's what I wanted to do with my rifle. And I can still shoot the parent round with no problems.

[no guns here]

I respect what you want to do with your rifle.  Not a problem at all with that from me.  Like I said, I'm not dogging anyone.  I just can't wrap my brain around why folks try to "improve" something when there is already an off-the-shelf improved product.  I'm glad ya'll do it... if folks like you didn't try to do things, then we wouldn't have all the neat stuff we do.  It's like all the big boomer .30's out there... I have two '06s.  Haven't found anything yet that I needed to shoot that was too far to hit.  When I do, I'll get closer.  If I thought I had a need to reach farther, then I'd pick up a .300 Win Mag... no, I wouldn't... I don't want to deal with the recoil just to get another 100 yards to kill a deer.

On another note... looks like I'll be huntin' roe buck and hogs this weekend here in Germany.  Wish me luck.  I'll be using a friends Blaser R93 .308 .  Now that is one sweet rifle.  Probably one of the most accurate production rifles to be found anywhere.  I've shot three now that all shoot well under MOA if I don't drink to much caffeine before hand.

NGH

[Tom W.]

Not saying anything bad to you, NGH. I understand the thinking. (Well, somewhat, anyway.) It's just that reloading is a relaxing hobby, and getting good loads can be a challenge. However, there is still that "snob appeal" and that feeling that one gets from making a clean kill on an animal with a rifle that was tinkered on to your specs, and a load that you developed and assembled yourself.

My NEF shoots those cheap 130 grain Remington Core-loctks into a tiny ragged hole at 100 yards with boring regularity, but I still have the compulsion to see if I can find a load that I rolled myself that shoots just as well. It's a compulsion I suppose.

I won't get started telling you about bullet casting.......

[Davemuzz]

Boy, it would be tough to handload something if you have a cheap factory that shoots that well in your NEF. Unless your foolin around with some loads and come across something else that does just as well.

I've never gotton into casting bullets. I look at casting bullets like I look at smoking. I'm a reformed smoker, so I know if I smoke one, in about a week I'd be back to a pack a day. So, if i start getting into casting, it would be like smoking.....I'd be hooked and my wife would be yappin at me that I spend all my time at home in the garage....instead of just "most" of my time at home in the garage.

Dave

[sweetwyominghome]

A couple of points haven't surfaced in this thread, so I will take them on.

For starters, over the years I have seen photos here and on other boards of AI cartridges that someone has fireformed. And in some of the photos, problems were quite visible. For instance, the shoulders should NOT look rounded but should be sharp and well-defined. You first need to be aware that simple shooting a reduced load or something "bulletless" with powder and cornmeal/cream of wheat or whatever is not optimum and will give you less-than-desirable results. First of all, you need to support the case during the process. To do so, you must utilize a powder that is slow enough and bulky enough to give you 100 percent or higher load density, and I prefer a lightly compressed load. Secondly, the powder must still be fast enough to fully form the case the FIRST time. And the projectile should be long enough to reach and engage the rifling it at all possible.

And the chamber must be perfectly dry. Use acetone, alcohol or similar products to swab the chamber to ensure there is NO oil or lube of any kind in it. And your cases, too, must be completely free of lube. Otherwise, the case, particularly in single shots, won't be able to "grip" the chamber walls and will result in extreme backthrust against the frame -- i.e., the proverbial high-pressure situation that can certainly endanger you or anyone in the area as pressures can spike dramatically and with less-than-desirable results.

And if you don't pay attention to detail, your AI case will probably soon show a distinct ring just ahead of the web, and that's the dreaded sign of incipient case head separation. Incorrect fireforming practices can bring this on with that single firing!

Some 'smiths are to blame partly as well. Certain cartridges can't be rechambered to a true improved version without setting the barrel back. Of course, you can't do that in a Contender or Encore, but some 'smiths try and chamber these cartridges anyway.

If you know how to check for headspace and can make calculated adjustments with your dies to accommodate the off-spec cartridge, you can learn to remedy this quite easily. But many don't -- and that's where the frustration can set in.

I have worked with improved cartridges of all kinds and have NEVER had any problems other than a couple of occasions when I bought a used barrel and was also given brass by the previous owner. In a couple of instances, some of it had to be trashed as it was poorly done and an accident waiting to happen (maybe they knew they had problems, which may have been why I got the barrels rather cheaply!). But properly fireforming the brass took care of all of that...

As to velocity gains, cartridges in the .308 WCF family generally show only modest gains but do tend to stretch less and, with the minimal taper, offer less backthrust against the frame in the case of the single shots and is easier on bolt guns, too.

Cartridges such as the 22-250, .250 Savage, .300 Savage and 30-30 Win tend to have the most notable increases in velocity. My .250 AIs, again depending on the individual gun and load used, could be counted upon for a 200 fps or so increase over the parent case. In some cases, that could approach 300 fps, but I don't care to red-line anything.

With the AIs, you have to weight the benefits versus the additional work. It's a personal choice, and for some, it is simply not worth it. And those who don't take the time to learn about what they are doing so they can avoid future mistakes will only become frustrated and tend to jump on the anti-AI bandwagon at first opportunity.

But if you approach the AIs with  an open mind and a willingness to learn, they can be wonderful performers and provide years of rewarding use.

 .

[pdh]

Was out fire-forming some brass the other day...as breaking in the eacbo barrel.
On the breakin in...I cleaned between each of the first 5 shots...next a 3 cycle shot and clean and lastly a 5 cycle shot and clean.

My fire-forming load was randomley pick out of the Sierra manual....it was 47gr of IMR4895 with the 168gr sierra bullet.
Here is the 5 cycle fire-forming/ barrel breakin group fired at 100yds.



Accuracy potentail of my eacbo 30-06ai barrel... in my opinion...is top rate.
I have since...sent in my frame to Eabco for their Trigger Tune/Action Job package. Should get my frame back little over a week.
 

[BobT]

I have never been a high velocity nut, I like the AI cases for the improved case life and less frequent trimming. I mostly use factory data for the parent cases when I load them. I love the .30-30 but case life sucks in factory form and brass is getting more expensive every day. The .30-30 AI gives at least 5X more case life for me!
Bob

[Reynolds]

I recently purchased a .280 pro-hunter barrel with a 28" barrel.  I've owned two previous rifles in .280. A 22" and a 26" .   Shooting the same reload recipe in all three rifles shows me that about 4" of barrel length equals what any AI improvement gives you.  I was amazed to see the 28" encore barrel product 3100+ fps with a 139gr bullet.  That is smokin for a .280!

[nomosendero]

I recently purchased a .280 pro-hunter barrel with a 28" barrel.  I've owned two previous rifles in .280. A 22" and a 26" .   Shooting the same reload recipe in all three rifles shows me that about 4" of barrel length equals what any AI improvement gives you.  I was amazed to see the 28" encore barrel product 3100+ fps with a 139gr bullet.  That is smokin for a .280!

Sounds great. I have thought of getting a Pro Hunter tube in 7-08 & having it re-chambered to 280AI 

[pdh]

Guys....went out a couple evenings ago to fire-form the last of my cases....getting excellant results with just the fireforming loads out of my 30-06AI eabco barrel....

Here is a a 3 shot group of my fire-forming load at 200yds



I am now ready to start load development on the 30-06AI.......really excited about the accuracy...

[Davemuzz]

Yeah buddy!!! If that's what your getting at 200 yards from the fireform shots....you got a keeper there!

Congrats!

Dave

[pdh]

You noticed I quit after the third shot? I did not want to ruin a good thing ....Wheather or not it was a fluke group...it certainly showes the potiential of my Encore....very well satisfied. Also...eabco just done a trigger tune job. Turn around time was great and I am sure it tributed to the accuracy.

Thanks Dave............