What is the problem with shooting a doe

[Graybeard]

Yup Elmer I think it depends on a lot of things. It might be a genetic trait in the herd at a particular location and I think that was the case in the original Texas experiment. Age when first rack is formed and nutrition have as much as anything to do with what that first rack looked like. So does the health and age of the mother. Here in the south were the rut can go into February many doe fawns of the year cycle in for their first time just in time to be bred late in the rut and their fawns are born both late and small and just don't have time to grow before that first rack is to develop. They pretty much can't help being spikes.

A person who puts some time and effort into it can learn to age deer on the hoof with some pretty good degree of accuracy and if a buck is more than 2.5 years old and still a spike for sure he is a cull and needs to be removed but a 1.5 year old with a small spike rack needs to be given time to prove his worth before being shot as a cull.

[rockbilly]

GB.  The area in and around my place was monitored by biologist from Texas Parks and Wildlife as well as from Texas A&M.  We were asked to take spikes out for a two year period, shooting everything we seen with anthers 5 inches or longer.  Most of the spikes killed were two years old, or older.

Prior to the study I seen herds of 7-8 bucks running together, all spikes.  After the first year of killing spikes we didn't see many bucks at all, but continued to kill every spike we seen, anything with a fork was allowed to walk.  For a couple of years following we seen a lot of smaller forked deer, at this point we were encouraged to go into an extensive supplemental high protein feeding program.  Today I rarely see a spike, the racks are much heavier and we are seeing a lot of 8-10 points, and on occasion a 12-14 point.  The yearlings are forked the first year, and a three year old may sport a 6-8 point rack.  I hate to sound redundant, but again, it is all in maintaining good genetics to produce quality deer.  Several years ago I killed a 19 pointer, could arguably even be classified as a 21 pointer, so removing the spikes, and supplemental feeding has payed off in my opinion.  I will try to scan the picture and post it if I can figure out how to do it.

As mentioned before, deer hunting in Texas has become big business.  Everyone wants a BIG buck, it the interest of producing the bigger deer it is absolutely necessary to remove those of inferior quality.

[Graybeard]

The spikes I speak of here in Bama seldom have enought mass in the rack to have 5" spikes altho I too have seen some older ones with even longer spikes it's the babies I'm mostly referring to. Where I hunt the nutrition of the feed is not great, the does are bred late and have fawns late and they just don't have the time to mature enough for that first rack to have much chance. Now once they get some age on them and aren't racked it's time to cull them for sure. I also think ever buck with a spike on one side and rack on the other should be shot on sight first sighting every time. You really don't want that genetic trait in the herd and getting them out as soon as possible is the only smart policy in my opintion.

I hate and despise programs that say a buck must have X number of points per side or an XX" wide rack to be legal. To me that is just breeding for failure. You're killing your best bucks and leaving the scrubs to do the breeding. Some deer will never have an eight point rack or even four on one side and will never have that 14" wide spread and if you leave ALL of those and take out the nice big racked deer you leave the runts and bad genetics to do the breeding. I do not support any program taht bases shooter buck or not on rack width and points and lets all not meeting it go. You must have knowledgeable hunters who know what is a cull and to take him when you see him.

[elmer]

GB, I agree wholeheartedly on the points about nutrition and the ones that are branched on only one side. I just want to make sure it's a spike on the other side and not broken.

It seems that in severe drought years even the "trophy" bucks regress and have less points and mass.

We have a plan in place based on deer surveys and Texas Parks and Wildlife's recommendations for removing does. Our gun season on the ranch starts when the Texas bow season starts and we are asked to remove does early. This is suppose to help shorten the breeding season reducing stress on the bucks and reduce the number of late fawns. It seems to be working.

[rockbilly]

  I think we have hit the nail on the head.  During the early part of deer season I often see button bucks that develop into a 3-4 inch spike before the end of the season, these are yearlings, and will likely be four points the next year.  These deer are not what I advocate killing.  The deer I am speaking of is exactly what GB mentioned, those with 5-6 inch spikes.  In this part of the country these are usually spikes for life.

[merhunts]

I have shot button heads in the past but not on purpose. When I walked up to it I felt so ashamed I felt like evil himself. I don't advocate shooting them. I now only shoot a doe if I can determine that they are not a button head. I agree with the rest of you about spikes. A spike with eight inch long spikes needs to be taken out of the gene pool.

[Cabin4]

In my past hunting seasons I have talked to some hunters that would rather be caught dead than to shoot a doe. What is it with these hunters. Do they only hunt for the antlers. Do they not know that if all hunters only shot Bucks than we would have so many does we would probably never see a buck. Because there would not be very many to go around.

Those are the signs of the "Trophy Only" hunter.

Kill it, eat it. Taste great. Why not.

[single action]

G.B.
         I also dislike the 4 point rule, Missouri has used the 4 point rule in the northern and eastern counties over the last few years to see if it helps improve the herd. (their explanation) I agree with you, that if you remove the big bucks it gives the smaller racked bucks more opportunity to breed and you will eventually degrade the quality of you herd. It however seems strange to me that the state would try this experiment in the part of the state that has the best deer hunting to begin with. it seem to me you would try it somewhere like the ozak region, where the bucks are  over all smaller than up north. Could it be they want to grow more big bucks in th north eastern region so that more out of state hunters (usually illinois) will pay the ever increasing non resident fees to hunt in this state? Conspiracy theories anyone?
          I personally hunt for food and enjoyment, and see no reason to shoot a buck over a doe except for the fact that bucks are a little easier to drag out of the woods! But that bieng said, if a giant buck walks out in front of me....... well, I cant guarentee his safety.

[Swampman]

I support the "at least 4 points on one side" rule for bucks.  I think hunters should have to legally tag a doe before they can even shoot a buck.

Most of the bucks here in FL are killed as yearling spikes or fork horns.

[buck460XVR]

As mentioned before, deer hunting in Texas has become big business.  Everyone wants a BIG buck, it the interest of producing the bigger deer it is absolutely necessary to remove those of inferior quality.

yes, but are you removing the inferior deer or only the deer with inferior racks?

Seems to me, that in our quest to produce a deer herd with antlers of trophy proportions, that we are creating a deer herd with minimal smarts and survival skills. At one time a young buck needed a good mother to show him how to escape his predators,  how to find food at all times of the year and he needed a little luck to live long enough to learn these things. Nowadays, many treat their deer herds like domesticated cattle by providing food and supplements even when natural food is in abundance. They no longer have to learn where to find food and how to avoid man, because they have learned thru our accelerated evolution of them, that man=food and as long as they have a rack on their heads, they are safe from man for 5 or 6 years, much longer than their natural average life span. They learn that there are no consequences for mistakenly walking close to a human during daylight hours as all the man wants to do is leave some food for them. Say what you want, but 30 years ago you never saw deer come running up to a vehicle looking for food, nor did you see a mature buck feeding during daylight hours within a rock's throw of a occupied building.....much less the indifference that the same mature buck has for human movement around the same said building. We may be creating a deer herd with the largest average antler size ever seen by man........but is it at the cost of domesticating them? I surely hope not.....but it is food for thought.

On another note, I think at one time small antlered bucks became the norm because of another form of accelerated evolution. At a time when any antlered buck was fair game for most hunters(as it was years ago) bucks with forked racks that were easily seen and readily  identified were shot anytime they were seen, while small racked bucks and especially spikes that were hard to identify as legal game were either inadvertently passed up or the few extra seconds it took for the hunter to identify them was all they needed for escape......thus larger racked buck genes were quickly withdrawn from the pool, while the smaller, scrubbier racked buck genes were allowed to flourish. Man just can't keep his hands outta Mother Nature's pants........

[Swampman]

Small racked bucks will become large racked bucks under the right conditions.  There are a lot of myths that are commonly accepted as fact on this matter.  There are a lot more large racked bucks being taken every year than there ever have been in the past.

[SHOOTALL]

i have seen 4-5 year old bucks that weighed 160 - 180 lbs with spikes on the same land that 8 and 10 pointers with 19 to 20 in spread racks come off of . small racks don't always become big racks !
one in particular was a buck with 17 and 16 inch spikes that were as big as a coke bottle at the base ! another was a beautiful 5 points on one side and a 13 inch spike on the other . it only shows it is important " WHO"S YOUR DADDY " !
this land was a tract we rented , 1100 acres , swamp in middle surrounded by soy bean and corn fields !4 years ago it became a sub-division ! %#@^$&%

[woodchukhntr]

Up here in New York (State) we have basically 2 zones.  In the northern zone only bucks can be killed.  In the southern zone, the license is for a buck, and you can apply for a "doe" permit.  There is a limited number available which are chosen at random, by computer, when you purchase a sportsman's license.  I believe there is a charge if you only get a big game license.

The "buck only" crowd will apply for the permit and destroy it.  They feel that the herd will be destroyed if all of the permits are used.  Common sense does not apply here.  In the early 20th century the deer herd was very low and the "no doe" approach made sense.  But ask anyone who lives in the rural areas of the southern zone and they will tell you that is is scary driving at night with all of the deer around.  We live in a suburban area and see deer and turkeys where there were none 50 years ago.

[Swampman]

A healthy ratio is 4 or 5 does to 1 buck.  Here in FL it's probably 50 does to 1 buck.  I would not be opposed to any measure that would correct and maintain a healthy ratio.

[Redhawk1]

Swampman, the best healthy ratio is 2 or 3 doe to 1 buck.  That is ideal but almost undo-able with all the trophy and horn hunters out there. Don't get me wrong, I like a nice buck, but I will only shoot one if I intend on mounting it. Other than that, I shoot doe's.

[SHOOTALL]

either will do !

[marinemagnum]

I will take a doe any day. The one that you let walk is one you dont get to kill

[SHOOTALL]

the biggest problem is getting a head shot so the most meat can be saved !

[Redhawk1]

Shoot them through the ribs and take out the lungs and you waste no meat.

[James B]

I have taken about 300-350 deer over my hunting lifetime.90 percent have been does. I will only shoot a buck that looks like an elk or am doe. Like another said, if It don't beat my biggest by a good amount, it walks and I shoot meat deer which to me means good size does. Where I hunt there are so many does that it really helps the herd to thin them out. I am not a trophy hunter.

[Swampman]

Shoot them through the ribs and take out the lungs and you waste no meat.

Shoot them through the front shoulders so you don't loose the entire deer.  Head shots aren't ethical.

[SHOOTALL]

REDHAWK , we BBQ the ribs !
SWAMPMAN ,why not , haven't had one take a step yet ! i don't have a count but we are allowed 6 deer and can buy more doe tags you will have to trust me but the head shot works it has on at least 20 or more deer !
now the deer must be still and close longest shot maybe 40-50 yds , and the nearest maybe 6-8 inches !

[Masterblaster1]

Seems to me that 7 out of the 8 deer I have killed were does, last year I shot 2 does and picked up a fresh roadkill....

[Swampman]

REDHAWK , we BBQ the ribs !
SWAMPMAN ,why not , haven't had one take a step yet ! i don't have a count but we are allowed 6 deer and can buy more doe tags you will have to trust me but the head shot works it has on at least 20 or more deer !
now the deer must be still and close longest shot maybe 40-50 yds , and the nearest maybe 6-8 inches !

I don't know anyone good enough to be taking head shots.

[SHOOTALL]

Guess we have not met then !

[carpman1972]

If It's Brown, It's Down.

[SHOOTALL]

Glad I don't ride in UPS trucks  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mnswede]

I am a meat hunter and prefer does, but I will shoot the buck if he comes across my path.  This year my hunting zone is 1 buck/doe with 4 more 1/2 price doe tags if you want per hunter.  The last 4 seasons we have had 1 buck/doe with an additional doe tag.  Since most of the hunters in my hunting zone are buck only hunters, I can fill up the freezer to over flow.

[SHOOTALL]

If bucks only is a hunters choice thats what make this country great he can choose ! But with out a doubt the doe taste better and we can kill 2 a Day in bow season most of Oct. , 2 a day in ML season 2 weeks and 16 in reg. season !
oh yea 3 bucks combined ! reg. season is 7 weeks but only special days allow does .

[warrior1]

should be no problem, if your state allows for doe hunting it is fair game,go for it. the only time i will not shoot one is when isee i  it has young ones with it. dan