Author Topic: Belted magnum vs non-belted cartridges (Read 3253 times)

Dixie Dude · « **on:** August 01, 2007, 09:40:34 AM »

Why do a lot of you guys like non-belted cartridges? I understand it may be harder to reload. For instance, 300 wm and 338 wm vs 35 Whelen and 30.06. And .45-70 vs 450 Marlin. Doesn't the belted magnums give better performance? Just wondering why you guys like what you like and why.

beemanbeme · « **Reply #1 on:** August 01, 2007, 01:29:50 PM »

I like 'em all. They all have a niche. I've never thought about "liking" belted cases and "disliking" non-belted cases or vice versa. Often some folks will try to villify one or the other but they are usually trying to pretend to a knowledge they don't have.
Since moving to Wild and Wonderful West Virginia, I've been doing a lot of business with a .260 and a .300 Savage topped with vintage Weavers in 2.5 and 3X. If I were leaving tomorrow for a hunt west of the big river, I'd grab a 7RM or a 300WM just for the little bit of extra reach and the little bit of extra thump.
Wouldn't the .260 or the 300 Sav work? At the distances at which I shoot, probably but I like the little bit of extra insurance.
I've never had any problems reloading belted or non-belted cases.

powderman · « **Reply #2 on:** August 01, 2007, 03:27:35 PM »

The disease of magnumitis never bothered me. Can't kill a deer deader than dead, but some folks think they need a magnum of any kind for them. Guess I'm just old fashioned. POWDERMAN.

powderman · « **Reply #3 on:** August 02, 2007, 03:21:35 AM »

Quote from: TM7 on August 02, 2007, 12:24:34 AM

The 45-70 case holds about 4 grains more powder than the 450 case.....

...TM7

Deer or other targets don't know anything about power, velocity, or grs of powder, they are still dead. POWDERMAN.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #4 on:** August 02, 2007, 04:17:04 AM »

Say you wanted to hunt moose, elk, or big bears. I know you can take them with 30.06, but would a non-belted caliber work just as well, say around 200 yards? I know the 45-70 would be fine under 100 yards, but is there a non-belted magnum capable of downing larger animals around 200 yards? I want to get into reloading, and am just trying to find out information.
Thanks for your replys.
DD

Dee · « **Reply #5 on:** August 02, 2007, 04:34:02 AM »

I have been reloading since around 1970 or 71, and have seen many new cartridges come and sometimes go over the years. Although there ARE exceptions and I am speaking MY OWN opinion, I have seen "one" MAGNUM that I believe fills a niche that was void, and as I said this is MY opinion and no one has to agree.
The 357 magnum FAR IMPROVED the 38 round, "in a medium framed pistol", and statistics have continued to prove this out, mostly in the Law Enforcement arena.
The 44 magnum cannot do ANYTHING any better that a loaded up 45 Long Colt, and a loaded up 4570 will do anything the 458win mag will do in reasonable ranges for both.
The magnum craz over the last 30 years or so has come up with NUMEROUS cartridges that fill the testosterone needs of the younger crowd, but the old reliable calibers used by myself and my grandfather continue to prove that less is not only cheaper, but sometimes better, and most of all, ADAQUATE. In the thread on good moose gun calibers, it is entertaining to read the reasons for this or that, and to know that in reality, in Canada, and Alaska, many of the old guides, and locals are still taking moose with the 3030.
If magnum melts your butter, then so be it as I view it as a preference, not a necessity. SHOT PLACEMENT is the crux to clean kills, and many a "magnumite" has believed that his magnum will MAKE UP FOR, a poor shot, and 99% of the time, it will not! JMHO

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #6 on:** August 02, 2007, 05:42:44 AM »

No wonder the 30.06 is still around and number one is sales.

Sourdough · « **Reply #7 on:** August 02, 2007, 06:07:23 AM »

If I only hunted Deer, Black Bear, Antalope, Elk, or Sheep, I too would be totally satisfied with the 30-06. After all it is the standard all others are judged by. But I hunt Moose and Grizzlies, and I like that little extra insurance that the belted magnums (ie. .338 Win Mag) give me.

But back to the original question, belted or no belted? The belt on the belted magnums is for head spacing, it does not make the casing stronger. Look at Lazzaroni Magnums, No belt and lots of power. I personally have no prefferance as to the case, I look at the performance of the cartridge. Two of my favorite rounds are the .350 Remington Magnum and the .35 Whelen. Ballistic twins, one belted one not, I own two of each. If I am hunting from a stand, I like the .350s. Shorter action making a shorter gun, easier to manuver in a tree stand. If I am walking, or riding a four wheeler, I carry the .35 Whelens, no particuler reason, just my preferance.

beemanbeme · « **Reply #8 on:** August 02, 2007, 07:04:04 AM »

You notice how the folks with experience with both tend to give examples; the folks with little or no experience tend to rant. Some of the magnums, just like some of the standard cartridges, spend but a little time on stage. Others, their worth recognized, have stuck around.
If you are doing all of your hunting east of the big river, a 7-08 will take care of all your hunting needs, but on the other side, things are different.
A person that says a 300WM is not an improvment over a 30-06 or a 7RM is not a superior cartridge to a .270 or .280 needs to spend a little more time shooting and a little less time in cyberspace.
It is kinda strange, those of us that use both and can appreciate both seem to spend a lot of time defending magnums against shrill, little people that have gotten most of their info from rumors and heresay. You know: "my buddie's friend's uncle is a guide what time he isn't drunk and so he knows all about guns and he sez..................."

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 02, 2007, 07:55:00 AM »

Quote from: Dee on August 02, 2007, 04:34:02 AM

I have been reloading since around 1970 or 71, and have seen many new cartridges come and sometimes go over the years. Although there ARE exceptions and I am speaking MY OWN opinion, I have seen "one" MAGNUM that I believe fills a niche that was void, and as I said this is MY opinion and no one has to agree.
The 357 magnum FAR IMPROVED the 38 round, "in a medium framed pistol", and statistics have continued to prove this out, mostly in the Law Enforcement arena.
The 44 magnum cannot do ANYTHING any better that a loaded up 45 Long Colt, and a loaded up 4570 will do anything the 458win mag will do in reasonable ranges for both.
The magnum craz over the last 30 years or so has come up with NUMEROUS cartridges that fill the testosterone needs of the younger crowd, but the old reliable calibers used by myself and my grandfather continue to prove that less is not only cheaper, but sometimes better, and most of all, ADAQUATE. In the thread on good moose gun calibers, it is entertaining to read the reasons for this or that, and to know that in reality, in Canada, and Alaska, many of the old guides, and locals are still taking moose with the 3030.
If magnum melts your butter, then so be it as I view it as a preference, not a necessity. SHOT PLACEMENT is the crux to clean kills, and many a "magnumite" has believed that his magnum will MAKE UP FOR, a poor shot, and 99% of the time, it will not! JMHO

Dee, I think you missed the boat why some choose a magnum "belted" round over a non-belted cartridge. I happen to own both, I have a bunch of different rifles and handguns that are magnum as well as standard non-belted cartridges.
I pick my rounds to the type of hunting I will be encountering, If long distance shots are going to be a big percentage, I go with a faster magnum round over a standard cartridge. For me it is using the gun I feel is better suted to do the job. I don't think people use a belted cartridge to make up for poor shot placement, that is more your perception and opinion than it is fact. I happen to take pride in my shooting ability weather I am shooting a belted magnum or standard cartridge.

Dee · « **Reply #10 on:** August 02, 2007, 08:51:27 AM »

Well I don't think I missed a boat, as I have no travel plans. I think you may have become offended by my OPINION (Stated as such in the first sentence of my post) concerning magnums in general. I used a handgun cartridge to illistrate my perception of ALL magnums. And you are certainly correct about my OPINIONS being what I was going by. I believe the question more or less REVOVLED around opinion. The tread is titled "Belted magnum vs non-belted cartridges", NOT "non-belted magnums".
You have stated in your own words that you pick rifle and cartridge according to what, and I quote; For me it is using the gun "I" feel is better suited to do the job. PRECISELY REdhawk1. YOUR OPINION. I have no problem with that, why do you?
If you are a great shot as you profess, I obviously wasn't refering to you. No one is criticizing you choice of rifles, just stating my own preferences, opinions and why. Lighten up!

beemanbeme · « **Reply #11 on:** August 02, 2007, 02:48:32 PM »

Redhawk1, Yup, shrill, little people.

The other day I got out a 7mag that I had not shot in over 10 years and used some ammo that I had reloaded 16 years ago. I shot a .75" 3 shot group(first 3 shots by the way) 1" above the bull at 100 yards and then drove a 160 gr bullet thru 5 gallon jugs. One of which was filled with cherry Kool Aid. Awesome! And I didn't flinch. And my bro-in-law shut up about magnum shooters flinching and his .270 being equal to the 7mag.

powderman · « **Reply #12 on:** August 02, 2007, 03:21:13 PM »

DEE. You pretty well covered it my friend. A 7mm mauser and 303 british have killed every type of game in the world including Africa. Takes a rifleman, and a well placed shot. POWDERMAN.

Drilling Man · « **Reply #13 on:** August 02, 2007, 04:26:45 PM »

Quote

Say you wanted to hunt moose, elk, or big bears. I know you can take them with 30.06, but would a non-belted caliber work just as well, say around 200 yards? I know the 45-70 would be fine under 100 yards, but is there a non-belted magnum capable of downing larger animals around 200 yards? I want to get into reloading, and am just trying to find out information.
Thanks for your replys.
DD

The bottom line is, "IF" you took a belted magnum cartridge like the .338 Win. Mag. or the 300 Win. Mag., and turned the belt off the case with a lathe, and then chambered a bbl for "that" case without the belt, NOTHING would change! It would have "exactly" the same performance it had "with" the belt, and kill every animial just as dead!

DM

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #14 on:** August 03, 2007, 01:31:00 AM »

Quote from: Drilling Man on August 02, 2007, 04:26:45 PM

Quote
Say you wanted to hunt moose, elk, or big bears. I know you can take them with 30.06, but would a non-belted caliber work just as well, say around 200 yards? I know the 45-70 would be fine under 100 yards, but is there a non-belted magnum capable of downing larger animals around 200 yards? I want to get into reloading, and am just trying to find out information.
Thanks for your replys.
DD

The bottom line is, "IF" you took a belted magnum cartridge like the .338 Win. Mag. or the 300 Win. Mag., and turned the belt off the case with a lathe, and then chambered a bbl for "that" case without the belt, NOTHING would change! It would have "exactly" the same performance it had "with" the belt, and kill every animial just as dead!

DM

Drilling Man, vary good point. My 416 Rigby has no belt, but is every bit as powerful as the 416 Remington Mag with a belt. So the belt actually has nothing to do with anything. My 300 Ultra Mag does not have a belt either.
I am sure if everyone dropped the magnum title off all the cartridges, this discussion would end. Look at the 308 and 30-06, is not the 30-06 a magnum compaired to the 308?

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #15 on:** August 03, 2007, 01:40:59 AM »

Quote from: Dee on August 02, 2007, 08:51:27 AM

Well I don't think I missed a boat, as I have no travel plans. I think you may have become offended by my OPINION (Stated as such in the first sentence of my post) concerning magnums in general. I used a handgun cartridge to illistrate my perception of ALL magnums. And you are certainly correct about my OPINIONS being what I was going by. I believe the question more or less REVOVLED around opinion. The tread is titled "Belted magnum vs non-belted cartridges", NOT "non-belted magnums".
You have stated in your own words that you pick rifle and cartridge according to what, and I quote; For me it is using the gun "I" feel is better suited to do the job. PRECISELY REdhawk1. YOUR OPINION. I have no problem with that, why do you?
If you are a great shot as you profess, I obviously wasn't refering to you. No one is criticizing you choice of rifles, just stating my own preferences, opinions and why. Lighten up!

Dee, I was not offended at all, again your perception.

The only thing I think that hits a nerve with me is when you put and I quote, " SHOT PLACEMENT is the crux to clean kills, and many a "magnumite" has believed that his magnum will MAKE UP FOR, a poor shot, and 99% of the time, it will not!"
In my opinion that is just an unfair judgment on your part. It is to much of a general statement.
I don't think people choose a bigger gun to makes up for poor shooting. If that were the case, every one would be shooting 600 Nitro's.

Drilling Man · « **Reply #16 on:** August 03, 2007, 03:18:38 AM »

Quote

Dee, I was not offended at all, again your perception.

The only thing I think that hits a nerve with me is when you put and I quote, " SHOT PLACEMENT is the crux to clean kills, and many a "magnumite" has believed that his magnum will MAKE UP FOR, a poor shot, and 99% of the time, it will not!"
In my opinion that is just an unfair judgment on your part. It is to much of a general statement.
I don't think people choose a bigger gun to makes up for poor shooting. If that were the case, every one would be shooting 600 Nitro's.

I wish i had a dollar for every time saw someone buy a "bigger gun" when they had an animial get away.... I mean a guy shoots at a deer with a 308 or 30-06, and it gets away. He's just so sure he hit it "right", and comes to the conclusion he needs more gun and goes out and buys a 300 or 7 mag.!!!

Now, you try and tell me that isn't the SAME thing as Dee was saying!

So, put an icepack on your nerve, cause folks get magnumitis all the time, even if "you" didn't/don't....

DM

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #17 on:** August 03, 2007, 03:39:02 AM »

Quote from: Drilling Man on August 03, 2007, 03:18:38 AM

Quote
Dee, I was not offended at all, again your perception.

The only thing I think that hits a nerve with me is when you put and I quote, " SHOT PLACEMENT is the crux to clean kills, and many a "magnumite" has believed that his magnum will MAKE UP FOR, a poor shot, and 99% of the time, it will not!"
In my opinion that is just an unfair judgment on your part. It is to much of a general statement.
I don't think people choose a bigger gun to makes up for poor shooting. If that were the case, every one would be shooting 600 Nitro's.

I wish i had a dollar for every time saw someone buy a "bigger gun" when they had an animial get away.... I mean a guy shoots at a deer with a 308 or 30-06, and it gets away. He's just so sure he hit it "right", and comes to the conclusion he needs more gun and goes out and buys a 300 or 7 mag.!!!

Now, you try and tell me that isn't the SAME thing as Dee was saying!

So, put an icepack on your nerve, cause folks get magnumitis all the time, even if "you" didn't/don't....

DM

I guess I don't know many guys that have a deer get away from them and think a bigger gun is the solution to there problem. So I guess I don't see what you mean. I have worked in gun shops and I am around a lot of hunters, and I don't see people buying larger calaber or magnum rounds because of a lost deer. 90% of the guys buy a larger gun because of the game they are going after. Moose, Brown Bear ect... or plan on making long distance shots.
I think magnumitis is a term that is over used and just plain rediculas.

MGMorden · « **Reply #18 on:** August 03, 2007, 04:04:02 AM »

I can see a lil bit of a point there Redhawk. Now admittedly I don't live in a very "trendy" area, but I know of very few hunters who use any sort of magnum. Out of my personal friends and relatives I know people who use 6mm Remington, .30-30, .30-06, .270 Win, 7mm Mauser, 7.62x39mm, .308, .303 Brit, and even .22-250. All fairly common non-magnum rounds. Truth be told, I've had a hell of a time talking more of them OUT of trying to use that .22-250 that seems to be gaining popularity here for deer (anything centerfire is legal here - you can technically use a .204 Ruger if you want). A lot of hunters around here are getting older and they're getting recoil sensitive

. I've been letting many of them shoot my .257 Roberts when I can though, and I'm trying to sway more of them in that direction instead of the .22-250

.

Where I DO see some magnum cartridges is at the range. Especially the WSM's. Not really target rifles, but let's face it, you only need 1 good deer gun (and that's all you hunt here with a centerfire rifle, unless you want to go for coyotes), so once they get a good "go to" gun, they'll either be satisfied and get no more guns, or if they're people who like shooting just for the sake of shooting they'll buy more rifles on different ends of the spectrum "just in case"

. Heck I KNOW there's nothing in SC that I need a .375 H&H for, but I'm looking at getting one anyways, just because I want one (and just maybe I'll manage a trip to Africa or Alaska one day

). I'll still probably take it to the range and "play" every now and then though

.

beemanbeme · « **Reply #19 on:** August 03, 2007, 05:05:19 AM »

I think I found the guy that originated the term "magnumitis". He was skulking along the back edge of my property a few years ago. Armed with his thutty-thutty and a 4x16x50 scope in see-thru mounts. When I commented "that's quite a scope", he give me a green toothed grin and said, "yeah, that's to help me with my long shots".

unspellable · « **Reply #20 on:** August 03, 2007, 07:56:27 AM »

The original purpose of the belt was for head spacing. later it came to be associated with "magnum" cartridges. The 375 H&H was the second belted cartridge and the one that popularized both the belt and the term "magnum". It had the belt because the shoulder had a shallow angle that would provide poor head spacing. A multitude of other cartridges were later developed on the 375 H&H case, most of them having a sharper shoulder and not really needing the belt.

Pros & cons:

The belt adds an extra step to case manufacture.

The belt makes it difficult to size the case just in front of the belt, you need an extra trick die to do so and it adds a step to the loading process.

Some cartridges require the belt for head spacing. The 458 Winchester is a good example.

In the 450 Marlin it's there to prevent chambering in a 45-70.

In the case of the 375 H&H the belt allows the gentle shoulder angle. This in turn allows accurate reduced loads, something the blown out "improved" magnums are not very good at. I have a good accurate rabbit load for my 375 H&H. On the other hand, the 375 H&H has enough horse power for anything in North America and a flatter trajectory than a 30-06, don't really need any of the "improved" versions.

The term "magnum" has entirely lost its original meaning, it has become ad copy writer's white noise. It originally meant a case capacity larger than standard for the type. The 458 Winchester "Magnum" has a case capacity SMALLER than standard for the type. The 32 H&R Magnum has a pretty short case too.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #21 on:** August 03, 2007, 09:03:43 AM »

Thanks for the information. So it does require an extra step if you reload. From everything I have read from this forum. I believe the 375 HH, the 30.06, the .223, and the .22LR, would cover every animal in the world. Ammo is everywhere, and reloading would be just to save money and get your pet loads for whatever you are hunting. All other calibers are for fun, except maybe pistol calibers. That is for another discussion.
DD

beemanbeme · « **Reply #22 on:** August 03, 2007, 03:44:59 PM »

Don't know about an extra "trick" die or what have you. I've always resized my belted cases to witness on the shoulders just like a standard case. No extra step involved.
I've never worked with a 458WM or any other straight walled magnum case so I don't know about them.
One COULD SAY that a .375 would cover everything but it would tend to make say a rabbit very, very dead.

nomosendero · « **Reply #23 on:** August 03, 2007, 06:23:51 PM »

Quote from: Drilling Man on August 02, 2007, 04:26:45 PM

Quote
Say you wanted to hunt moose, elk, or big bears. I know you can take them with 30.06, but would a non-belted caliber work just as well, say around 200 yards? I know the 45-70 would be fine under 100 yards, but is there a non-belted magnum capable of downing larger animals around 200 yards? I want to get into reloading, and am just trying to find out information.
Thanks for your replys.
DD

The bottom line is, "IF" you took a belted magnum cartridge like the .338 Win. Mag. or the 300 Win. Mag., and turned the belt off the case with a lathe, and then chambered a bbl for "that" case without the belt, NOTHING would change! It would have "exactly" the same performance it had "with" the belt, and kill every animial just as dead!

DM

Yea, but look at all the extra work!!!

Hooker · « **Reply #24 on:** August 04, 2007, 07:00:26 PM »

My old man always said "Magnum is just a word it does not add any magic to the cartridge only to the mind"

Pat

powderman · « **Reply #25 on:** August 05, 2007, 04:00:18 AM »

Quote from: Hooker on August 04, 2007, 07:00:26 PM

My old man always said "Magnum is just a word it does not add any magic to the cartridge only to the mind"

Pat

Your Dad pretty well nailed it. Kinda like the guys who have to have the HI BRASS shotgun shells for those big, bad, hard to kill

super tough squirrels. Yeah right, poor shots they are. POWDERMAN.

nomosendero · « **Reply #26 on:** August 05, 2007, 07:06:23 AM »

Quote from: powderman on August 05, 2007, 04:00:18 AM

Quote from: Hooker on August 04, 2007, 07:00:26 PM
My old man always said "Magnum is just a word it does not add any magic to the cartridge only to the mind"

Pat

Your Dad pretty well nailed it. Kinda like the guys who have to have the HI BRASS shotgun shells for those big, bad, hard to kill

super tough squirrels. Yeah right, poor shots they are. POWDERMAN.

I may not be as good a shot as some of you, but the last time I shot my 300WM Sendero at a 500 yard range, my 3 shot group was the best I have never done with any round, but I am going to try real hard this summer with a 308 M700VS I just bought. Am I doing something wrong?

powderman · « **Reply #27 on:** August 05, 2007, 09:12:00 AM »

NOMOSENDERO. If it works for ya thats great, I bet you are really gonna like the 308, my choice for an all around caliber. I worked in sporting goods for a while and saw guys buying bigger guns cause the 3030 didn't have enough power to kill a deer, when poor shot placement was the real problem. My cousin has a 300 WM that is super accurate, but he's never shot anything bigger than groundhogs, and they never knew it was a MAGNUM.

. POWDERMAN.

beemanbeme · « **Reply #28 on:** August 05, 2007, 10:12:05 AM »

Powderman, had your cousin shot his groundhogs with a 22-250 would they have known that?? I don't understand your point? Couldn't a fellow shot a ground hog with whatever he wanted to? While you said your cousin doesn't hunt large game with his 300WM, I would think that shooting ground hogs with your large game rifle would be excellent practice for big game hunting.
If the folks that bought a more powerful rifle --say a .308-- because a 30-30 wasn't powerful enough to kill a deer, they were as misguided as the folks making their shrill, little, acrost-the-board rants against magnums. If they were buying a more powerful rifle because a deer doesn't always give you a "christmas card" pose at which to shoot; because sometimes the angle is such that you need a little more weight of metal, a little more penetration to do a good job, a little more reach. If they were buying a more powerful rifle to make one shot work out of respect for their quarry instead of laying down a field of fire with their little lever guns, then, wouldn't you say, they were on the right track. Oh, I read the post here in cyberspace where the squinty-eyed, super-kewl, total marksmen have opined "It ain't the cartridge, it's the shot placement that counts". Inferring that they, of course, have never had to shoot an animal, regardless of size, twice, nor made a less than perfect shot. BUT, I have yet to read an article or instruction sheet on culling Cape Buffalo that recommends using a .223 since it's shot placement that counts don't you know.
If this whole argument is about shooting 100# whitetail deer east of the big river, then it becomes academic. Except for the "bean fields" shots, which I think are more contrived than needed, the ubiquitous thutty thutty would be adequate 90% of the time. Esepecially in the hands of a reasonable hunter. Even the .243 and the .223 would work. But hunting conditions change as you move around the country; hunting requirements change. That's why I said they all have their niche.

nomosendero · « **Reply #29 on:** August 05, 2007, 10:30:21 AM »

Powderman, I have owned several 308's in the past, from a little Model 600 to an HK91. I hope the VS will shoot under 1/2MOA out to 600 yards, if not I will get my gunsmith to make it happen. It will be a high volume shooter like my RRA 223. My 300WM will shoot UNDER 1/2MOA out to 600 yards with more than one 180gr load. I don't use it alot but when Ihave a need & I sometimes do, it does the job.