Author Topic: Rookie Hunting/Range Revolver Buyer Needs a Caliber (Read 1292 times)

Mawgie · « **on:** June 03, 2003, 04:34:39 PM »

Folks -

It's me again, the rookie. I'm just about plumb committed to the revolver, but now the caliber "yips" are setting in. (We covered the recoil yips in my last post.)

To recap, I've ruled out the monsters, 454 Casull, 416 Rigby, 475 Linebaugh and 50 S&W as too da** big, too much boom for a rookie, and way too expensive. My uses will be: regular range use; whitetail deer hunting, primarily from a treestand, here in New York State; home defense if my 12 gauge L.C. Smith double runs empty and I can get to my revolver (!).

I've not done it before, but do plan to commit to handloading when I buy the pistol. Ideally, my dream cartridge will:
1) offer the opportunity to reload for a fraction of the cost (e.g., cheap) per round of boxed, factory ammo;
2) enable me to reload lighter range loads and heavier hunting loads;
3) hopefully, give me a load that will be suitable for 90-110 yard shots on whitetails under ideal conditions (no heavy wind or obstructions, pistol rested on the rail of my treestand for stability);
4) offer me, if possible, the potential to load heavy without a ton of recoil.

From what this rookie has read, the .480 Ruger and .41 Magnum and .44 Magnum are reputed to be very flexible in terms of their respective abilities to be loaded heavy or light.

I know that the .357 is an excellent cartridge, particularly for a rookie like me, but some might argue it's a little light for whitetail deer. I would appreciate any input from experienced handloaders.

Before I decide, I plan to study the ballistic potential of these three calibers, and to a lesser extent the .357.

My hunting assumption is that one needs to deliver 700-1000 foot pounds of energy at a well placed point of impact to be within the range of humane deer killing power.

So, what shoots flat out to 100-110 yards, retains enough energy to humanely kill whitetail deer out to that range, and has manageable recoil?

I'll be working on this myself for the next several days, and will post my results. Thanks again to you all for your input.

Regards-Mawgie

Hud · « **Reply #1 on:** June 03, 2003, 05:34:42 PM »

Mawgie,
If you hand load all the cartridges you mentioned will cost about the same.

My 5 shot (Reeder) Ruger Bisely is in 480 Ruger caliber. I really like the cartridge. It starts where the 44 Mag leaves off. And still the recoil is not overwhelming. The down side is the less expencive 480's are double actions. I guess that is only a downside if what you want is a single action, as the double actions are very fine guns.

If I was to have one single action it would be a Ruger and it would be in 45 Colt. There are some cheap and very mild factory loads out there, and if you handload you can out perform a 44Mag if it is a Ruger revolver you have. Some manuals offer 45 loads just for the Ruger.

I like the Bisely grip the best. I like the feel of the grip and I prefer the recoil to come back into my arm instead of rolling up in my hand as the regular plowhandle grip does.

I would stay away from the 357Mag but any of the others would be fine for deer out to 100yds: the 41Mag, the 44Mag, the 45Colt, or the 480Ruger. With the proper bullet placement the deer will not know the difference.

Hud

HoCoMDHunter · « **Reply #2 on:** June 04, 2003, 05:13:23 AM »

I agree with HUD. Although if you are going to roll your own you might reconsider the 454. You can shoot mild 45 Colts (or just shoot really mild 454 if you don't like cleaning the cylinder) up to full house 454. It's nice to know that the gun can handle just about any load you throw at it (within reason of course). If you like single action and don't want to spring for a Freedom Arms I would go with the Ruger SBH Hunter or Ruger 45 Colt.

Paul H · « **Reply #3 on:** June 04, 2003, 07:59:41 AM »

I think for your use you will find the 44 mag, 45 colt, or 454 to be the best choice.

I mentioned that I'm a huge fan of the 480, but the primary reason I prefer it to the 44 and 45 is I want something that provides me with confidence against moose, which a 400 gr bullet @ 1200 fps does. The downside of the 480 is you have to reload to get its flexibility and bullets are more exspensive and harder to find. For me this isn't an issue as I cast my own bullets, and load them. For those who don't cast, and aren't looking for a gun for animals over 500#'s, a 44 or 45 are just as good.

I know lots of folks prefer the Single Action frames, and I used to be a fan of them as well, until I shot a Super Redhawk. For me, the srh was a much easier gun to shoot accurately then a super blackhawk or bisley. With a scope on it, and worked up loads, my 480 is scary accurate, it'll consistantly put 5 shots into 1" at 50 yds, something most revolvers are hard pressed to do at 25 yards. I would certainly recomend considering the 7 1/2" super redhawk 44 and 454 with a scope on it for your use.

Hcliff · « **Reply #4 on:** June 04, 2003, 11:40:29 AM »

The 357 is a good cartridge to have fun with. Ther is power there for in close deer hunting. The 44 is a better choice for a hunting cartridge. I don't now your level of handgun shooting but this is a stout one to start with. The 357 has different power level. 38 wadcutter, 125 357 mag, 180 grain mag. It is the jack of all trades but master of few. this was my first centerfire handgun so I might have a soft spot for it. I owuld rather see you be able to hit a 6" pie plate with every shot with a 357 mag then get a bigger gun that recoils more and you can't hit all.

Or get both.

Hcliff

msmith · « **Reply #5 on:** June 04, 2003, 11:58:41 AM »

41, 44, 45, 480, 454 all would be good. If you do commit to reloading then you should really consider the 454. I feel that the 454 is a reloader's dream. You can load it down to almost 800 fps with a 240 or 260 grain bullet, clear up to 2000 fps with a 240 grain bullet or 1750 fps with a 300 grain bullet.

When I decided on the 454, I talked to the engineer at Freedom Arms and he recommended loads and stated that I would even have the wife out shooting with the loads he mentioned. So, if you reload, the 454 can be a lot of fun and isn't necesarily the recoil monster people make it out to be. Don't get me wrong, the 454 can be abusive to shoot, no doubt, but it doesn't have to be.

However, if you find a deal on a gun chambered for any of the cal. mentioned, they will do the job and be a lot of fun to load for and to shoot.

Good luck,

myronman3 · « **Reply #6 on:** June 04, 2003, 03:10:13 PM »

either the 41, 44, or 45 colt. although i have no hands on experience with the 41, i would have bought one instead of the 44 if not for me owning a 44 already. from what i hear-almost all the power of, less recoil than the 44. but less choice of bullets.
44 mag. the standard by which all others are judged. i own three. no need to say more.
45 colt. outstanding. nice and mild, even when loaded hot. a classic, and just fun to say : my 45.
cant lose any way you go. one last word of advise- dont fall for the horsepower bug. my opinion is that a new handgunner (while not limiting oneself to underpowered cartridges) shouldnt get big-stick-itis out of the chute. either the 41, 44, or 45 will make you very happy. the 44 will likely be the easiest to find reloading components for. good luck.

Raging480 · « **Reply #7 on:** June 05, 2003, 03:50:55 AM »

Judging from YOUR post, and what YOU want to do with it, I would get a 44 Mag, in a 6" double action. Good length for hunting, not too long like the 8 3/8 if you want to use it for anything else. You are here, in NY, and the versatility of that cartridge is unsurpassed. You didn't mention anything about going to Alaska, Africa, or any other place where the game requires a bigger gun. Ofcourse, I am partial to DA wheel guns, everyone here has there $.02.
Top that bad boy with a Weaver 1.5-4x scope, and you will be all set.

volshooter · « **Reply #8 on:** June 07, 2003, 06:35:56 PM »

Without a doubt, the .44 mag is king of hunting. It is the most versatile of all pistol cal in my opinion. It will do anything you want a handgun round to do. I know even African elephants have been killed with a .44 handgun. I have a .454 as well and for my money, the .44 is far better as the extra power the .454 has, is not needed in most of the lower 48. Besides just buying the brass for a .454 will set you back ($109 per 500, vs $56 per 500 for 44mag new from Starline) (factory .454 loads are $1 a shot)Hot .454 handloads will reduce brass life to 2-3 shots per case. Unless your gonna go out for 1000 lb+ bears at distances of feet then save your self the trial and error I did and stick with the .44. All the extra money I've invested in reloading the .454 would have gone a very long way in buying reloading componets for my .44 AND paid for a few hunting trips. Others will tell you the .41 is a good round, it is but only if you reload. The .45 LC has the potential too, but you have to hot rod handloads above reccomended pressures to catch the .44's and only in certain handguns. The .45 LC , 44 mag, and .41 are all good choices. I think the .44 has the edge in all areas.
Rick

tony212 · « **Reply #9 on:** June 09, 2003, 01:54:15 AM »

This is just my opinion, but I think you would be hard pressed to find a better caliber than the .44 mag. I have hunted with a .44 for many years and have yet to be disappointed. Like you I also hunt in the northeast, Massachusetts and Vermont. Shots are seldom over 60 or 70 yards with many as close as 20 yards. At these ranges the .44 has plenty of power. You can also load them light for targets and small game hunting. I have worked up some good loads for both the 240 grain Hornady XTP, which is an excellent hunting bullet, and the Speer 240 grain LSWC, which I use for a mild target and small game load. Also, the popularity of the .44 mag means that no matter where you go ammunition will always be available. Every sporting goods store carrys .44 mag.
Anyway, this is just my opion.
Good luck;
Tony212

WildBill · « **Reply #10 on:** June 09, 2003, 08:02:06 AM »

My first revolver was a 454 Casull Raging Bull .It shoots great and is very versatile.I have shot 300 cast .250 Xpb.300 Xtp's ,Win 260 factory loads and all have shot well ,and very close as far as not having to move my sight.Over a good rest a deer at 100 yards is not asking to much of the gun for sure.

Mawgie · « **Reply #11 on:** June 09, 2003, 11:42:48 AM »

Folks -

Thanks for all your replies. I have been hard at work roving the Internet and gun magazines, looking for the ideal caliber. Thus far, here are my impressions:

1) The .45 Colt can be loaded up to "run with" the .44 Mag. According to the highly respected gunsmith, John Linebaugh, as in .475 Linebaugh, to do so does not create high pressure issues, so long as the gun being used is a later model Ruger Redhawk or Blackhawk, or a TC Contender.

2) Loads of people disagree with John L., arguing that the 45 Colt has to be loaded to potentially dangerous pressures to achieve ballistic performance comparable to the .44 Magnum.

3) The attraction to the heavily loaded .45, at least for me, is the objective of heavy hunting load performance out to 100
yards with minimal recoil.

4) I'm undecided who to believe regarding the argument that the Colt 45 either does or does not have a weak cartridge. Linebaugh and his disciples argue that with Federal brass, the cartridge is plenty strong. Detractors argue that it "ain't a Magnum design", and therefore isn't as strong.

5) Other calibers? The 480 Ruger remains a real player, as does the 454 Casull. In both, I am not overly concerned with ammunition cost, as I plan to reload, and will only shoot the full house loads when hunting, or getting ready for hunting. So, I expect reasonably good brass life. In these bigger dogs, I am drawn to them, like many I suspect, by virtue of the fact that they have extended heavy duty hunting potential. With my feet firmly on the ground, though, it is hard to justify either when the biggest thing I'll hunt for now is a whitetail deer. (On the other hand, a V-6 would have gotten better fuel economy than the small block V-8 in my truck. I much prefer the V-8, even if it does cost me a few hundred more a year in gas.)

6) And the lead dog? At this mid-point in the race, well it's the one I started with, the .44 Magnum.

I haven't made up my mind, and perhaps in reading this post one of you will pick up a glaring lapse in my thinking. Any and all input is requested.

Thanks in advance. I'm off to my 3 hour Handgun Safety Course, required here in NY State before you can even apply for a pistol permit.

Regards-Mawgie

Hud · « **Reply #12 on:** June 09, 2003, 06:20:53 PM »

Well Mawgie, ya can't go wrong with the 44 Mag, but then on the otherhand, ya can't go wrong with the 45 Colt either. And that 480; I just love it!

One point I do want to make on the 45 is that the cases are now made the same as the other magnum cases. There were some old balloon head cases back in the old days that were weaker, but those are far and few between.

The 454 Casull is just a Maximized 45 Colt Case. As the 357 Max is to the 357 Mag or the 445 is to the 44 Mag. If you shortened up a 454 case with your reamer, you would have a 45 Colt. If they had invented it today it would be called the 45 Magnum. The case is basicly just a seal anyway. The strength is in the guns metal. It is true that if you fired a hot 45 in a Colt SA you would be in trouble, as the gun is not as strong as the Ruger.

Also a point to ponder is that if Linebaugh was wrong after shooting all those hot loads, he would not be around to tell us about it.

I am going to do a little playing around with my 480. I'm going to load up some 45 ACP cases in place of bullets. I think some other guys here have done that already. I am also going to take some of my .490 round muzzle loader balls and run them through my 475 sizer and load them up to do about 700-800 fps. That should be a good squirrel load. And then I need some shot shells too. Has anybody made them yet for the 480?

Hud

HoCoMDHunter · « **Reply #13 on:** June 10, 2003, 06:58:07 AM »

As usual, Hud is right. Todays 45 Colt cases are the same as the 454 cases except shorter and a different primer. My wife shoots at an indoor range that does not allow 454 but 45s are OK. I went with her once to ask about using low power 454s but they wouldn't hear it. I asked them if it would be OK to load the 45 cases to 454 specs and they that would be OK. YOU CAN ONLY DO THIS IN A 454!!!
I haven't quite gotten to full 454 speed with the 45 brass but I am real close. No signs of excessive pressure and I know the gun can take it.
That said, I rarely care to shoot full house 454s. Like you, I am primarily hunting whitetail. 95% of the time I shoot 45 magnum loads in 454 brass. The recoil is tolerable for longer shooting sessions and it has plenty of power for what I need. If I start thinking about taking 175+ yd shots I would shoot full house.

Mawgie · « **Reply #14 on:** June 15, 2003, 05:43:01 AM »

Folks -

Thanks for all the input. Earlier this week I attended my mandatory three hour handun safety course. Unfortunately, it was a harrowing experience.

I learned after the fact that the blowhard Instructor had been thrown out of the local Pistol Club for unsafe behavior. Sure enough, he was unsafe during the course, too.

He pointed his demonstration guns (S+W .357 DA, 1911 45s) at the students in the class repeatedly, at one point even saying, "Excuse me for pointing the gun at you."

People were literally ducking to get out of the way.

I managed to survive, and am now putting together the voluminous paperwork that will precede fingerprints and the balance of the application process.

As far as the caliber, I have all but decided against the .45, in favor of the .44 Magnum. After considering this for hours and talking to scores of people, I have come repeatedly to the conclusion that I can't go wrong with the .44 MAgnum. Also, I have a hard time believing that the full house .45 loads have any less perceived recoil than .44 Magnum loads; though I am the first to admit that this is what John Linebaugh espuses and he has forgotten more than I will ever know about handguns.

The .454 Casull is out, way out. Everyone I have talked to who has shot one either: 1) owned the gun, but sold it; or 2) tried someone else's gun and put it down after fewer than a full cylinder's worth of rounds.

The .480 Ruger is still a maybe. My reservation here is that Ruger only makes it in the Redhgawk, and I personally don't care for the looks of that gun. I could get a Raging Bull, but don't really want the extra noise of a compensated barrel, and am not too keen on the giant logo "RAGING BULL" on the side of the gun. Having said that, both are reputed to be fine weapons.

So, there it is. .45 falls to third. .480 Ruger contesting in second. The venerable .44 Magnum in first.

It should be 2-3 months before my permit is proce4ssed, so i have plenty more time to "invest" working this issue over.

Thanks to all for your helkp, and if anyone wants to weigh in re: .44 Mag v. .480 Ruger, I'm very interested.

Gregory · « **Reply #15 on:** June 15, 2003, 08:47:55 AM »

Mawgie

From what I've read you have received sound advice. When I lived Ulster Co. I hunted with a TC Contender in 44Mag. I thought the "safety course" was a joke too. You couldn't even handle a gun! My 44 Mag worked fine on a couple of bucks I shot. I would recommend you load some 44 Speccial cases with about 15-16 gr of 2400 powder and a 240 gr hard cast bullet for starters, this will give you plenty of power for deer and reduced recoil over a full house 44 Mag load. You may want to try the new Corbon 44 Special loads for home defense, these would probably work for deer also. I've owned a Ruger Redhawk in 44 Mag and it is a good choice, my favorite DA however is the S&W. I have only taken one small deer with a 357 Mag, out of a Contender, it worked fine, so I wouldn't count it out yet. The 357 Mag, loaded with 38 Specials, would be the most fun at the range and I know you would shoot it alot more than a heavier caliber.
Good luck.