T/C HAWKEN/RENEGADE

[rex6666]

CABELAS
does have them, but you have ask for them, don't have them out on diplay like the reg.
caps. ibought a box of CCI mags. didn't have the NOBLE
went to the range late yesterday. Iam back in Bus. the CCI mags seem to be just as hot
if not hotter than the Musket caps, NO hesitation.
GOEX web site has suggested loads for diff. powders they make for rifle, pistol for diff.
weight bullets and balls.

[forest2]

rex6666   

i am thinking about running a #60 drill bit through the nipple and open it up a little, not a lot, but some.

I would pass on that one - unless you absolutely have to drill it open - switching to T7-3f would solve some of the problems.

good thread. good info sabotloader, and good for you rex your following right along.
 
 Maybe a bit of help here with what the hammer and cap and nipple really does?..And how a "bigger" hole in the nipple doesn't help. When the hammer falls and ignites the primary charge and then the main, the powder exlpodes creating gas pressure to send the projectile down the bore, right? Right.
  Well if the hole in the nipple is too big, or if the hammer is too weak too hold in position,,then some of gas pressure will expend through the nipple and not down the bore pushing the prjectile.(get it?)

 Having surefire ignition is important. Clean, dry, open channels to the main charge is key to all BP arms shooting well.

[rex6666]

I am sorry guys, should made clear that the drill i was talking about is smaller than
the hole in a musket nipple, after tiring the cci mag caps everything is ok.
since the hammer and nipple was brought up, i do get some residue on the
barrel forward of the nipple, nothing bad (don't guess) but after 4-5 shots you can see it
very clear, the hammer has a split or v notch in the front of it, I just supposed to let gas escape, and i guess that is where it is coming from.
I want to than you guys for the help, if i felt i knew all the answers i would not ask the question.

[rex6666]

I forgot to ask about this. I was shooting the 460 no excuses (50cal) with 90gr Goex pinnacle
at 50 yards, holding dead on, i was hitting about 3" high  when i moved to the 100yd
range i must be 2ft low i have to look at all the frt site just to get on the paper,
and that is with rear elevation up almost as far as it will go.
what to do , more powder, less bullet.

[forest2]

less bullet.

[rex6666]

what would be the least acceptable bullet for elk, put to 100yds?
i know or feel that a small bullet in the right place is all was better than a large one
that you can't place, but still their has to be a limit on bullet size and weight, for elk

[sabotloader]

rex6666   

Normally i would also say go to a lighter bullet... but since the state has forced us to go to conicals going lighter is not a good answer for elk.  Lead conicals do not act at all like a jacket bullet so the general thought that you should make a big hole with a big bullet is not that far out of line.

I guess I am really surprised at your results with the 460 No Excuse.  I have shot them but I have shot the Bull Shops more, and I do not see that type of reaction, unless they are to loose for your bore.  On my barrels I did have to change the factory front sight to a shorter sight to get the bullet on paper @ 100 (got them from Williams)


Here is a ballistic sheet for the 460 - shooting 90 grains of T7-2f from a GM LRH bsrrel it is zeroed at 75 yards

[rex6666]

i could be doing something wrong, butter can't figure out what.
yesterday i shot at 50yds.
400gr precision 85gr black powder 3 shots in 2 "
320gr maxi-hunter 85gr 3 shots 2 1/2"
370gr maxi-hunter 85gr 3 shots 4"
all of these with fffg GOEX black powder
did not get to shoot at 100yds
might add that these were all about 2 inches high from point of aim.
i don't know what to do, i do know i have about 5 weeks to get myself on target at 100yd
seems like the gun is doing its part
i just don't know enough about this to know what to try

[sabotloader]

rex6666   

I am really wondering if you really have that big of a problem.... @ 50 yards you should be a couple inches high if you are thinking about being dead on @ 100... so that is ok.

Size of groups doesn't reflect a huge problem from a sidelock with open sights.  Again not knowing which sites you have holding exactly the same from shot to shot is difficult with out a lot of practice.... remember a small error in the sight picture make a difference and it multiplies as you go down range.  Also sometimes we make to big of a deal out of 'groups'  in the real live world of hunting you really have a 6" kill circle.  You have to get in that 6" circle everytime you shoot (3" above/below/left or right of your point of aim.  If you truly want groups reduce your powder load and shoot groups as the true target shooters do.  In that light I shoot a lot of stationary clay pigeons spotted at different ranges.  I truly believe this is a better measure of my shooting ability.  One shot one bird.

I am not sure what a 400 grain Precision projectile is but it has to a ballistically better projectile than a maxihunter...

Drop your load to 80 grains and see if things tighten up...

Just as an information point I am shooting the 460 BullShop with 90 grains of T7-3f with excellent results from a GM LRH barrel and 80 grains from a standard TC Renegade barrel.

[rex6666]

i understand what you are saying and on elk i probably have 8-10" circle.
the problem i have had is better groups than i really need at 50yds then at 100yds
not even on the paper. The 400gr. precision (prbullet.com) solid and the maxi 320 seem to
be doing the best job it takes for every (like 2weeks ) to get the precision bullets, i
think they are out of Canada supposed to hold lots of world target records
they make several bullets.
I am going to shoot again today from 100yds, if i can get 5 of  the 400gr in a 8" circle
i think i will be ok. just like anything else bullet placement is the trick.
these bullets look really good to me no mold marks really clean, they come unlubed, they
they say use you favorite lube the other day i had no bullet lube with me so i go in the
fridg. at work and used some margarine, that when i shot 2-21/2 groups at 50yds, they load real easy

[rex6666]

OK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SABOTLOADER, and all you others that have listened to me whine for the last month.
yesterday shot 460gr no excuses with 85gr GOEX fffg black powder at 100yds.
first 3 way high, adjusted MY (yea MY as in ME) sight picture, put 3 shots about4" high
in about a 4"group. adjusted sights on rifle, next 4 shots about 2" high 4" group. so it would seem that i need to just keep on shooting and maybe work a little with my sights and or
powder, think i am almost there, can live with this but it never hurts to get better

THANKS SABOTLOADER for all the help.
Thanks every one else for not telling me to go away.

[sabotloader]

rex6666 

Glad to be of some help - good to here that you are getting there... but after all this I now have the urge to go shoot on of the renegades and I hate lobbing those conical grenades - but as you know the state says I must - so I guess a little more practice will not hurt....

This is one of my targets from a few months back - the GM barrel was mounted in a Hawken stock - I have since deep sixed the Hawken stock and drop the GM barrel in a Renegade stock... I really like the plain looks of the Renegade... The velocities might also be of some help to you...

If you cllick on the pic it will enlarge it so you can read it....

[crow_feather]

And what part of the great state of Idaho do ya live?

C F

(I think I recognize the snow)

[sabotloader]

  crow_feather   

The best part of the state of course... the north.  Came up here from down there to go to school in the 60's and never did leave - the hunting was better here than Boise...

[crow_feather]

Anything is better than Boise.  Flew in there once, flew right back out.  I live near Yellowstone myself.
Best of huntin to you

C F

[cascadedad]

Hey SL, Good shootin!  What is the maximum distance you would take on a deer with that setup?  If you don't mind me asking, how much $$ do you have in it?  If you do mind me asking just tell me to shuddup............again.   

I'll have to keep my eyes and ears open and put one of those together just in case my wonderful state follows your wonderful state's lead.

[sabotloader]

Cdad

What is the maximum distance you would take on a deer with that setup?  If you don't mind me asking, how much $$ do you have in it? 

I guess you are asking about "my Idaho White".... Since Idaho changed the rules in midstream I needed to come up with a ML that would equal if not be slightly better than what then was an Idaho legal inline.  I think I have done that.... It is not a stock TC Renegade/Hawkin at all.  As you know our White's have a 26" 1/24 twist barrel and will shoot conicals or sabots equally well.  So my first challenge was to find a barrel that met the new Idaho rules... it had to look traditional...  So I went to the Green Mountian Barrel site and I'll be danged if they were not offering a GM LRH SS 1/28 twist barrel for a Hawken or a even Renegade.  I decided to get the Hawken "Long Range Hunter" barrel - 28" x 15/16ths.  And at first I did mount it in a TC Hawken stock, but later changed it to a Renegade stock because I like the simpler looking stock.  Then I got a new TC lock, the new faster lock and changed a couple of parts in the lock to provide a faster lock time even yet.  Pulled the triggers, honed and polished them so they are as smooth as a "babies butt."  When it was all done it turned out to be just what I was after.  What ever I could do with the then Idaho legal White - I can do with this new Traditional looking TC/GM Idaho White.

Distance... 150 yards is not a problem - 175 is easily do-able if the conditions are right and with more practice on my part a 200 yard shot is not out of the realm of possibilty.

One thing I did loose because of the new Idaho rules is trajectory.... As you know I really like shooting sabots and a 300 grain .458 (45-70) Nosler Partition PP from the White for elk and/or even deer.  Well, I think I am alright with the Bull Shop 460 grain lead conicals... they actually have a higher BC than does Nosler and they both hit with about 1200 lbs of energy @ 200.  It just takes longer for the 460 to get there and it is not as flat.  So I am thinking my new Idaho White will do just about anything my Utah White will do.

Last week sometime I did take it out to the rock pit for a test run.  I shot a 5 shot 2" group with it @ 100 yards and if you count the 6th shot of the group it was a 2 1/2" group with six shots...  I then set up clay pigeons from 75 yards to 125 yards (that is about the longest shot I can get in the rock pit) and began shooting them 1- shot one bird.... It is a shooter...

Most of the parts came off E-Bay and I got them quite reasonable - you know how cheap I am... and even the barrel was on close out from Green Mountain... I even bought 2 blued LRH barrels and changed out a couple friends to the same set-up...  I think I might have $200-$250 into the gun.  Oh, one other part I had to change was the front site - had to go to Williams and order a shorter fiber optic to get the barrel up so I could lob those grenades...

While, really I would like to be shooting the real White - this Idaho White will work just fine this year... then I think we (Idaho) will come back to our senses.  I know 3 of the commissioners are ready to switch back now.  But I am sure there will be some differences - including the perpetuation of short range hunts that will allow even what i would call modern inlines - not the old Idaho legal ones.

Does that give you the information you were after...

   

[cascadedad]

Yes, but be careful.  Not supposed to mention certain rifles or plastic in this forum.

Let me know if you find any more of this traditional equipment for a reasonable price.  Might as well get ready and it's good to know it'll do as good as my current rifles that load from the muzzle.