Blueing question

[handirifle]

I have an H&R 38-55 that I am making a major project rifle out of.  I know I'll have more into it than it's worth, but it's fun anyway.  What I'm wondering about, is how do some barrels get that hard, almost black look to them.  I've seen some high end rifles that almost look like polished paint.

Is that anything a do-it-yourselfer could do?

[Nobade]

A blue job is going to look exactly the same before and after bluing, other than the color. If you want it to be black and shiny like a Weatherby, it needs to be polished out to a high finish before it goes into the bluing tanks. Of course you could do the polishing at home and take it to somebody to blue, all you need is sandpaper. (and a buffer to take it out all the way, could get the shop to do it if you don't have one.)  If the guy uses fresh salts, and knows what he's doing, you'll get what you describe - perfect finish and very black.

[iiranger]

The Revolution (1700s) "blue" was actually brown. It is all some kind of rusting process. And there is an English blue that is real "blue" color. Soft. You can almost take it off with your thumb. More recently they have changed the formula and it comes out black. Parkerizing involved phosphorus in the rusting... Brownells stocks several kinds of "bluing" products, books with the directions and I would guess they have a free sheet or two and they take questions. As said, most important is the polish job. (Brownells and most other metal supply sources have polishing supplies.) If you want it to look great, you need several grits and wheels and it is called "work." Skilled work. The actual finish, applying a liquid or soaking in a bath, not too complicated.  luck.

[gunnut69]

Bluing and browning are actually controlled rusting processes. In bluing the rust is boiled/heated to convert it from the normal red rust(ferrous oxide) to black rust (ferric oxide). The hot salts bluing most of us think of use caustics (as in lye) to oxidize the steels surface. The older form of bluing involved rusting the steel, carefully cleaned, using a specific solution. These usually consisted of acids which caused controlled rusting. The rusted part was then boiled to convert the oxide to black (ferric) oxide and the loose material was removed (carded). The tiny pits left were filled with a hard black spot of ferric oxide which is fairly rust resistant. This was repeated until the tine pits nearly covered the surface of the steel. The steel was then coated with a rust preventative and it looked quite blue. It is a very tough finish although the different formulas produced different results to some degree. If the rust was not converted, just left it's red state the result is a browned surface. Many old muzzle loading rifles were browned as even the simplest of salts(even sweat) could produce the rusting needed to create brown. The rust is carded to remove the loose rust and repeated until it dark enough. A preservative oil or lubricant is then applied and held in place by the rust to prevent further rusting. The salt method will produce a higher polished finish as the rusting action of rust bluing will demolish the high polish. Parkarizing creates a phosphate coat which is then stained or oiled to create the differing colors. The cold blues use a process similar to parkerizing but much milder. The steel is simply colored in some of them. The cold blue products such as OxphoBlue from Brownells can produce a fairly durable finish with little overhead. In order of durability the best of the rust blues are toughest, followed by the hot salt bath processes with the cold blues last. Browning is fairly tough but it's main attribute is the ease of repair. Rust is simply neutralized and becomes part of the finish. I've a Kentucky I built in the mid 1970's that has seen a lot of use, it is still the same chocolate color as it was in the 1970's but it's likely that some of the finish is quite a bit newer.. Polishing steel with a buffer is indeed a difficult task. Most guns polished on a wheel are not well done. A perfectly polished finish can be achieved by hand with successively finer grits of paper and crocus cloth. It's rarely done today because very little is done today by hand. Modern factory polish jobs are fine but a much better job can be done if the craftsman is careful and not in a hurry. It takes some skill but anything can be learned. Polishing should be one of the skills a smith learns early on.

[koginam]

Polishing is to be done carefully.   I have seen many polishing jobs done by the customer that are uneven, with ovaled out screw holes, dips in the flat surfaces, and rounded over edges.  Take care with the polishing and you can get the results you want.

[handirifle]

I had assumed the polishing was necessary before the bluing, although I've never done it before i figured I'd try it on this one.  as far as hand polishing goes, any links to a step by step source?

So machine polishing isn't suggested?

[koginam]

on this site their are several posts on bluing even on making your own solutions.  http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi
Machine polishing is done all the time just do it carefully.  I would recommend removing the old blue before polishing, you can buy Birchwood Casey remover or use Muriatic acid. Keep the part moving and don't use to much pressure.  Be very careful around screw holes and any sharp corners.  When your done polishing Clean the metal and blue right away.  Another tip is use clean flowing filtered water all the way through the process, you can buy a RV filter from Sears the hooks up to a garden hose and works very well. Your finished product will only be as good as your preparation.
Good Luck

[gunnut69]

I would avoid machine polishing. It's a fast way to ruin your weapon. Hand polishing takes a while longer but the results are worth the difference. It's seldom indeed that a gun is machine polished and it can't be told.

[handirifle]

Where can I find info on the hand polishing, am at work and cant look at the link provided (but I will), does it have hand polishing info there too?

I do appreciate the warnings, they will not be ignored.

[gunnut69]

Hand polishing is done the same way machine polishing is except of course there is no machine used. Some of the best restorers hand polish the steel on their projects. Use blocks to back the polishing papers to keep the flats flat and the edges sharp. If one is doing a blue job on a gentleman's deer rifle and protection versus cost are the main considerations a machine polished blue job is fine. When we do something for ourselves I always assume we're doing the best possible job. Hand polishing is done by most using sanding papers. I use dry paper for the first couple of levels if the rust and pitting is fairly normal. If severe I draw file the metal first to remove the pits. Always remove the rust as a first step as it will damage and fill the teeth on the files. I use a wire wheel to knock off the rust. Shaped blocks are available from tool suppliers, made of hard rubber they come in many shapes and sizes. The curves and creases are done first with the flats filled in later. After the metal is polished with one grit the next finer grit is used. Strips may be used to polish the barrel and similar rounded areas in a shoe shine motion. Try to change the direction of movement for the polishing papers when progressing to the next grit. Finish up with the finer grit wet or dry papers used in the automotive refinishing business. Depending with what level of polish is desired one can go as fine as 1500 grit wet-or-dry. If a high polish is desired crocus cloth can be used as a final polish. It can literally create a mirror polish on steel.. Keep all edges sharp, flat areas flat and avoid dishing the screw holes and removing lettering. If there are deep pits that will demand the removal of lettering either the pits have to be left or the lettering erased, unless one is will to pay an engraver to deepen the lettering. There are many techniques in hand polishing. I use water as a polishing media for the wet-or-dry papers while some use carious oils. Some use India stones shaped to follow the area being worked on. I prefer to shape the backer rather than a stone. Remember a factory rifle is usually a 320 or 400 grit polish at best. Some of course are much higher polish such as the Weatherbys, of old anyway.
The difference between machine polishing is the shape of the working surface. A polishing machine uses only the flat edge of a rotating wheel. The hyand polisher can shape the backer to match the shape of whatever surface he is working on.

[handirifle]

gunnut
Thanks, I was wondering if the shoeshine method was OK.
Over the weekend while helping in laws move (third time in a year ) I came across a Rem 511 rimfire laying on the garage floor in BAD need of refinishing, sooo, I will practice on his rifle.

Your info will be put to good use soon.

[MZ5]

I'm posting to this older thread because it contains a bunch of good info I was looking for.  I also wanted to ask Gunnut69:

Have you tried any of the solutions of methods in Howe's The Modern Gunsmith?  Are those the kinds of solutions you mean when you refer to "the older form of bluing?"  I'm looking to see whether I can find the compounds in some of those recipes inexpensively and in very small quantities to try my hand at bluing some odd scraps of metal.  Don't know whether I'll be able to do this or not, but I'm interested to try.  Thanks!

[gunnut69]

Some of those fornulas were quite dangerous unless you're well acquainted with mising caustic and oxidizing chemicals. Also some are restricted not thanks to 911.. I was in a local appothacary and noticed old chemical bottles. I asked about getting small quantities of 3 chemicals used to color hard maple in the old days(the days when I was young anyway). They were chromium trioxide, potasium permangenate, and nitric acid. He looked very strange at me and asked what I wanted them for. I explained and he was fascinated but confided I would likely draw a lot of attention as the chemicals mentioned can be used to form percusive explosive compounds and high velocity explosives. He looked but the Hazardis Materials Fee was quite prohibitive. Nitric acid can be had from some of the muzzle loader supply houses as maple can be very hard to stain until the acid is used to open the pores. Most supply houses also have minimum quantities.. As for rust bluing solutions I would strongly advise a visit to the Brownells site. The Belgian Blue is quite good and if directions are followed well quite reliable. Good luck.

[MZ5]

There are certainly formulae there which I have no interest in trying to mix up or use.  I could also envision (though don't know) that the neo-safety-nazis and thought police would determine, entirely without asking, that I wished to try something nefarious.  I'd still like to try some of those bluing methods/mixes.  I'll have a look at Brownell's site.  The Belgian Blue is a very durable finish?  Thanks!