My phone just rang today

[Dee]

My phone just rang a few minutes ago, and it made me think of what I truly believe is the second most futile effort since Vietnam. As in Vietnam, our soldiers are now fighting an enemy that is not only from across the borders of a country, but the very people they are trying to protect, and whom do not want us there, or our ideology. An enemy that is almost impossible to identify, as they are the people of the country themselves.
I have a friend whom many years ago, I went thru school with, and now go to church with his family. I listened to their stories of his son proudly going to Iraq, and watch his son's opinion slowly evolve into the real truth. I listened to them as they talked about his leave time and how he did not want to go back, again and again. Three tours altogether. I could EASILY relate, because as some whom read my posts know. I too have a son on his third combat tour, and like my friends son, mine also is a man's man, and is OUTSIDE THE WIRE where life gets simple minute by minute. And my son too, has seen the truth of Iraq, and not thru the eye of the news media, or the propaganda of the Pentagon.
I listened when my friend's family rejoiced that he was back and would not have to go back, and how this same son "came apart" when his little brother was deployed a few months ago.
And now, a phone call that that little brother is in an Anwar Province Hospital in serious condition, with one dead, and another still, in Germany in a hospital. An IED. Something that is difficult to see, detect, and leaves NOTHING to fight. An ambush like no other. Like Vietnam, that is the "reality" of this war, and the bitterness of a lie.
I pray for both their sons, and mine, and all the others there, and for sanity and common sense to return to D.C.

[Cement Man]

You, your family and friends, and all of our troops are in my prayers.  It has got to be tough just hearing that phone ring. 

[powderman]

DEE. The part of your sig from Phillipians pretty well describes islam, which is what we are fighting. POWDERMAN. 

[nomosendero]

Dee, I will certainly include your son & the injured young man as well in my prayers. I have 2 sons in the military, neither are deployed yet.

[rockbilly]

Dee.  As a retired military member with two Viet Nam tours I can sympathize with you.  I pray for your son and the all of the young men involved in this travesty.  

Like many of the young men today, back in the 60s I was convinced that going to Nam to fight Communism was the right thing to do.  Little did I know we were involved in a political war, and made no real effort, or had the intentions to win.  As a result of this crazy political plot, many of my friends names earned a spot on the Viet Nam Wall.  We lost a lot of young men there, and for what purpose?  And now we are involved in a similar situation in Iraq.

First I have no problem in hunting down and destroying terrorist where ever they hide, but George W. Bush has hung his war in Iraq on many lies.  The one truth of the conflict is that we overthrew the regime of Saddam Hussein.

Hussein was an evil man, he killed as many as 300,000 Iraqis during his term as leader.  George W. Bush has now killed as many as 600,000 Iraqis in his attempt to save Iraq from the evil Saddam Hussein.

There were almost 3,000 people killed in the attack on the World Trade Center.  Osama bin Laden has taken credit for the attack, Iraq had nothing to do with the attack, if anyone in that area contributed to the attack it was Saudi Arabia.   The result of Bush's war is there are more terrorist in the world today and fewer Iraqis, that is a fact.  I am afraid we are engaged in a war we can't win, and if it continues, not only our sons, but our grandsons will spend time there, but again, I shudder at the thought of another terrorist on American soil

Every time I hear George W.Bush say that he is going to save America from terrorist, I shudder.  Knowing that America has not won a war since WWII I hate to see us "cut and run,"  but is now the time to get out of Iraq and end the regime of GWB before he "saves" us all.

[Dee]

rockbilly you have nailed my point. I too have no problem fighting the terrorist, but let us go after the ones whom attacked us, not the ones whom cheered them on. It is true that Hussein was a "bad actor", but there are many "bad actors" in power around the world. We cannot kill them all, and it is not "our place". Most are members of the U.N. Perhaps we should start there.  It is at the present, like going to the football game, and tackling the fan, instead of the quarterback.
It is documented FACT that Lyndon Johnson had been informed by AMERICAN INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES and KNEW that VIETNAM was UNWINABLE, while the casualty list stood at around 26,000, but his UNWILLINGNESS to ADMIT the war was wrong caused another 26,000 to die, in a war that accomplished NOTHING. Muslims are POURING IN from all over the world, in support of killing American soldiers in Iraq. No peace will be made there, as the stream is ENDLESS. To assume otherwise is unrealistically foolish. It has become a shooting gallery, with American G.I.s as the targets, and there is nothing to accomplish there, but continually do a body count.
An update on my friend's son. He will recover. God be with the family of the one lost, and the other whom was flown to Germany.

[powderman]

tm7. Get your head out of the sand. Obl bragged about murdering those folks on 9-11-01. He said he never expected it to go so well and it exceeded his wildest expectations.  You need more foil friend, the hat you have now is leaking. POWDERMAN. 

[Questor]

Personal loss like this is always sad. Sorry to read about these fine young mens' misfortunes.

The reason I am writing is to mention that Viet Nam was a necessary war and there were excellent reasons for getting into it. The history is very clear on that. We also met our national objectives for going into that war, so in a sense it was not a loss at all. It was an important proxy for direct conflict with the big Communist nations.

Likewise, Iraq II is important and necessary, and we have already won it to the degree that our national interests have been served. It is important to understand that by dividing the Arab world geographically and leaving no doubt in the Arab world that the U.S. can and will occasionally destroy whole countries in a couple of weeks, that the governments of the Arab world will think long and hard before tackling the U.S. directly, or indirectly by aiding groups that will attack the U.S.  There is no doubt now that Hussein died because of his implication in Iraq's tolerance for terrorist training.

After 9/11, the entire Arab world was awaiting U.S. retribution. Had that retribution not come as hard as at did, then the U.S. would have proven the perpetual nature of our policy for treating terrorist attacks as crimes with minor consequences instead of as acts of war with major consequences.  That criminal approach was a failed policy, and we had to change for our own good.

The one thing that truly mystifies me is that so many Americans have not adjusted the concept winning a war. Winning only works in situations like WWII, where unconditional surrender was the only acceptable outcome. These newer wars, like Korea, Viet Nam, Iran, Iraq I, and Iraq II are acts of national defense. In my estimation they have been effective as such.

One final note, regarding the winning of wars, is that technically the Central Powers lost and the Allies won. However, the post-war constraints applied by the Allies on the vanquished countries fomented the environment needed for the Axis to build up for a second world war. Indeed, winning a war is poorly understood. The whole conflict took the better part of a lifetime to settle-- arguably from around 1910 to around 1960.

[Dee]

Personal loss like this is always sad. Sorry to read about these fine young mens' misfortunes.

The reason I am writing is to mention that Viet Nam was a necessary war and there were excellent reasons for getting into it. The history is very clear on that. We also met our national objectives for going into that war, so in a sense it was not a loss at all. It was an important proxy for direct conflict with the big Communist nations.

Likewise, Iraq II is important and necessary, and we have already won it to the degree that our national interests have been served. It is important to understand that by dividing the Arab world geographically and leaving no doubt in the Arab world that the U.S. can and will occasionally destroy whole countries in a couple of weeks, that the governments of the Arab world will think long and hard before tackling the U.S. directly, or indirectly by aiding groups that will attack the U.S.  There is no doubt now that Hussein died because of his implication in Iraq's tolerance for terrorist training.

After 9/11, the entire Arab world was awaiting U.S. retribution. Had that retribution not come as hard as at did, then the U.S. would have proven the perpetual nature of our policy for treating terrorist attacks as crimes with minor consequences instead of as acts of war with major consequences.  That criminal approach was a failed policy, and we had to change for our own good.

The one thing that truly mystifies me is that so many Americans have not adjusted the concept winning a war. Winning only works in situations like WWII, where unconditional surrender was the only acceptable outcome. These newer wars, like Korea, Viet Nam, Iran, Iraq I, and Iraq II are acts of national defense. In my estimation they have been effective as such.

One final note, regarding the winning of wars, is that technically the Central Powers lost and the Allies won. However, the post-war constraints applied by the Allies on the vanquished countries fomented the environment needed for the Axis to build up for a second world war. Indeed, winning a war is poorly understood. The whole conflict took the better part of a lifetime to settle-- arguably from around 1910 to around 1960.

LOL   Where have you been while history was being recorded? Talking about PC fantasy.

[Questor]

Can you identify anything there that's historically incorrect? If you could cite a few sources that contradict it, I'd like to see what they are.

[Dee]

Better still, why don't you explain to us what we won. I would like to know what PRECISELY was accomplished in these wars, that you claim were so necessary.

[powderman]

tm7. You conveniently remember what you want. Obl was on film dancing for joy and saying tht it went even better than he expected. I doubt I'm the only one that remembers this. I reccomend Reynolds wrap, hvy dty, the cheap stuff you are useing just aint getting the job done. POWDERMAN. 

[Questor]

Amazing.

[canon6]

I really try to stay out of the" tinfoil posts", but it seems to me that the wars of the late  20th and early 21st century have been fought, by brave young Americans who were sent to the WARS by Democrats and Republicans alike.So can one of you much more enlightened than I tell me who I am supposed to BLAME .my2c     Doug

[Graybeard]

I have personally seen the clips of Bin Laden celebrating and also saying it went better than expected. They are real and it sure enough looked like the SAME Bin Laden as most of the clips of him telling us all the things he wants us to know. The same man as in those sit downs with his known close circle as well.

[nomosendero]

Dee, I am glad to hear your young friend will make it. I am sorry for the family that lost their son & I will pray for them .

[Dee]

Thanks nomosendero. TM7 I ain't teamin up against ya hoss, but what their sayin about OBL is true. He DID say that it went far better than he had anticipated.

[Graybeard]

I saw it on a news show on TV. No clue where it might be on the internet but most likely it is out thegre somewhere, almost everything is.

[rockbilly]

Questor.  I guess I am thick as a brick!  Will you please explain how the wars in Korea, Viet Nam, Iran (?), Iraq I, Iraq II were acts of national defense.  I find nothing to indicate these countries were a direct threat to the USA. While you are attempting to enlighten us, please explain why Viet Nam was a "Necessary war", and the excellent reasons for getting into it.

As for already winning the war in Iraq, the jury is still out on this one.  As we are pulling out, Iran will likely be moving in.  What have we accomplished if this happens?

As I see it, the only way we can claim a total and complete victory over terrorism would be to eliminate every Muslim in the world.  You and I both know this is not going to happen, so where and when do we declare victory when there are still those out there with the intent of doing harm to America?  The Muslin religion is not the root cause of the problem.  The radical cleric who teach contrary to the contents of the Koran are the cause, and they are world wide.  There is not a Muslin country in the world where some cleric is not teaching the children that their sole purpose for being placed on this earth, and only way they can reach Heaven's gates is to kill Americans, so the threat continues to grow.

In any war the group that comes out on top picks up the tab, is this the winner?

[no guns here]

     Personally I don't have a problem with fighting over in Iraq, Afghanistan or in any other country.  Much better than fighting on our own soil in my opinion.  I still think Saddam Hussein, in a perverted way was America's best friend in that region.  Face it, as long as he was in power there weren't any militant Muslims running around in POWER in Iraq.  He may have financed a few but he also was a stabilizing sectarian influence in that region.  I think that the way America has prosecuted this war since the passing of "major combat operations" has been a mirror image of Vietnam.  We are reduced to small bases, with daily patrols to find and eradicate the enemy.  The enemy is not in uniform, they frequently work for us to gain intel to use against us.  They hide in the populace.  They fight with booby traps, not in major combat.  They snipe at us and run away.  Once in a while we are able to run into a sizable force and when we do we win the fight decisively just as in Vietnam. 
     Once again, our "political correctness" has gotten our men and women into a fight that we won't win.  In WWII, we eliminated whole cities.  In WWI, thousands were killed in a day.  In the Civil War, Sherman and Sheridan burned their way across the south and eliminated the financial, industrial and agricultural abilities of the Confederacy.  In the last forty years, we have lost the will to utterly destroy our enemies.  Only when that will returns will we be able to win again.  Even in Desert Storm we stopped bombing and shooting the "highway of death" because of the image.  We stopped the war after 100 HOURS of ground combat.  When it comes down to it, we care more about how we are perceived than about how much butt we kick and how completely we kick it.

Just my .02 worth, and before I get flamed for it... yes, I'm currently serving in Germany.  Won't deploy on this assignment, but more than likely will on the next one.

Flexibility is the key to Airpower!  (that, and a rack full of 500 pounders)
no gun here

[powderman]

I really try to stay out of the" tinfoil posts", but it seems to me that the wars of the late  20th and early 21st century have been fought, by brave young Americans who were sent to the WARS by Democrats and Republicans alike.So can one of you much more enlightened than I tell me who I am supposed to BLAME .my2c     Doug

Blame the Godless, subhuman SOBs that were screaming allah akhbaer as they murdered 3,000 innocent Americans on 9-11-01 and sent themselves to hell. Simple enough, unless you are tm7.  POWDERMAN. 

[canon6]

powderman, well spoken,   Doug

[magooch]

Questor and no guns here, you two fellas (I'm assuming you're fellas) have restored my faith that there are others who share my belief that the entanglements that we get into are almost inevitable and if we fail to respond to aggression, it will only breed even worse.

I have no doubt at all that if Algore had been elected instead of Dubya, we would still have gotten into it with the radicals in one way, or another.  And if Skerry had been elected, even he would have sooner, or later had to confront those who are determined to destroy our way of life.

One can argue about where and how we address the warped idealists who want us dead, but we cannot ignore them.  What is so disappointing to me is how quickly people forget the details and circumstances that lead up to the conflicts that we get involved in.  I'll bet there are not that many who remember the little war that Bubba (Clinton) took us into with Serbia, or whoever it was.  Talk about a war that we didn't have to be in....

History might, or might not put things into perspective, but I will always believe that one of the rationales for taking Iraq on was the fact that they had already proven that they would be a major force to deal with if and when the muslim nations finally get together and try take Israel out.  I'll bet the Israelis are resting a bit easier that they don't have Saddam to worry about along with Iran and Seria. 

In any case, no one should forget who were the loudest voices for taking action against Iraq back in 1998; that's right, nearly all Dumbycrats--the same ones who are now touting appeasement and surrender.

[no guns here]

Anybody see the video of the Marine "rapping" about America that was on the news yesterday?


NGH

[williamlayton]

Some wars are inevitable--on that I agree.
Interference in a conflict between political factions within their own country might bring some amount of wrath back on the one interfering.
Vietnam was political from the first. It was an ilconcieved business based entirely on the results of Korea without thinking of differences and ignoring intelligence.
Logistically it was a loss before it began without neutralizing the help being given.
I disagreed, at the beginning, but soon came too see the reality of the political motivation behind it.
A CF from the beginning.
The young men involved in Iraq are fodder for an ego.
My prayers for all.
Blessings

[schutzen]

As a citizen, I see a need for our country to be in Iraq and the Middle East.  I firmly believe that left alone, with the Sadam's and Bin Ladan's in power, the Middle Eastern Area would drag the world in to Armageddon.  Before you jump on my case, I am a religious man but I am not a religious fanatic.  Still, I can very easily envision the End of Days due to a religious fanatic with a nuclear device starting WW3.  Someone, in this case the USA, has to step up to the plate and help these people find the courage and political will to control or eliminate the radical jihadist element of their society be fore they destroy the world.

As a former soldier, I am disappointed to see our elected politicians and our "news media" making many of the same mistakes made in Vietnam.  Wars are fought by soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines.  They should be managed by generals and admirals, not politicians and reporters.  Give the military a defined mission, have the generals return with an operational plan and a list of needs, the politician's on have to say yes or no.  No second guessing or saying "well, do you really need that many men?"  Today's military is better training and better equipped than any force the US has ever fielded, they can and will accomplish any mission they are assigned if they are given operational freedom and not constrained by political maneuvering by both Democrats and Republicans.

As a Human Being, I am disgusted to see the total disregard for human life and suffering displayed by large segments of Middle Eastern society.  Not just the suicide bombers and the jihadist Muslims but also the Middle Eastern politicians, religious leaders, news media, and even the general populace.

As a parent, I shed heart felt tears every time I read a casualty list.  The families with names on those lists have experienced one of the greatest tragedies of life.  Every mother, wife, father, husband, brother, sister, aunt, uncle, cousin, and friend lives have saddened and diminished buy the loss of a loved one.

As a father, I am terrified that my son is on his second deployment.   But at the same time, I am proud that as a career soldier, he has the courage to live up to his convictions and commitments. Everyday we pray for his safe return and the safe return of all the men and women deployed in the service of our country.

There are no easy answers, no "school solution".  Only time and the history our great grandchildren come to believe as true will tell if the war in Iraq is a great political endeavor for the good of mankind or a debacle of the 1st magnitude.  A hundred years of history adds great clarity to all arguments and removes the prejudices we as participants (at various levels) bring into the argument.

[Dee]

It is a sad day when educated men believe that a democracy can be established in a theocracy. It has never happened before, and it will not happen now. I too am a Christian, but hopefully not too religious, and "KNOW" Armageddon will come with or without our meddling in middle eastern affairs. God Himself will make that decision and no amount of negotiation, or military might will slow it down or put it off. There are many bad men in this world that are as bad or worse that Hussein or Bin Laden. Many are members of the U.N., and we foolishly call them our friends. We are not being unpatriotic when we oppose our government starting wars that have no direction, with countries that have done nothing more than defied our superior opinion of what they should do in their own country, and we are not failing to support our troops, but are hoping to save them, thru the pressure of common sense. It has not taken a hundred years to determine the folly in Vietnam, nor has it in Iraq. The expense is too great to sit on ones thumbs and wait for history to hash out what is obvious. The lie and the dis-information has been found and admitted to. PRIDE is all that is left to get over. 3/4 of the country knows this, and so does the world. Only a few still cling to the propaganda to try and justify what is unjustifiable.

[magooch]

I agree with schutzen.  Also, I was opposed to the Vietnam War, but with the passage of time I've come to realize that it wasn't the involvement in the war that was wrong, it was how we went about it.  The same might well be true about how we are conducting the Iraq situation.

There is no question that we defeated the military forces of Saddam Hussein's Iraq and eliminated Saddam himself and his evil prodigy.  That was all good; the trouble started when we decided to follow the axiom that "if you broke it--you bought it."  In some cases, that might be the proper course, but here I agree somewhat with Dee.  In a country that is as divided as Iraq is and in a culture that doesn't seem to appreciate life and civility enough, it's a task that is just too much for our impatient society. 

History may determine that there was no easy way and that maybe in fact we are proceeding the only way that might have the desired outcome--messy as it is.  Hopefully, the responsible folks will prevail in Iraq and Afghanistan.  In any case, we have no choice but to fight the terrorists.

[Graybeard]

There are NO responsible folks there to win. Muslims hate each other almost as much as they hate us. They are a bunch of tribal idiots and anyone not of their tribe they hate and want to kill. The only time they can stop fighting each other is when they are fighting us. If we'd just get the hell out they'd go back to fighting each other. Only when they stop doing that and try to attack us should we get involved and when we do we should crush them totally and get the hell out quickly.

[Dee]

There are NO responsible folks there to win. Muslims hate each other almost as much as they hate us. They are a bunch of tribal idiots and anyone not of their tribe they hate and want to kill. The only time they can stop fighting each other is when they are fighting us. If we'd just get the hell out they'd go back to fighting each other. Only when they stop doing that and try to attack us should we get involved and when we do we should crush them totally and get the hell out quickly.

AMEN AND AMEN!